Call for Research Participation: Fogging in Chameleonoculture

[PetNcs]

can’t even really see why misting with the lights on would matter much given proper ventilation. So the water would evaporate and send pathogens into the lungs that fast? I’d imagine fogging with lights on would be even worse then since the molecules are in the air longer and easier to inhale deep into the lungs? Also, you’d think chameleons outdoors on the east coast would be dying instantaneously lol, no?

well, you oversimplify… You are close to true that if there is extremely good ventilation, the risk of hot humid air is less as it evaporates quickly. But then, what is the purpose of such misting if you would eliminate it immediately with ventilation? that does not make sense.
The trick is not as yiu assume in quick transport of the germ while misting at high temps (which is nonsensical as you say) but in other me hanism. namely the combination of high humidity and high temperature potents the metabolic activity and reproduction of the germ which are already there! the metabolic and eeproduction eate can be 3-5time quicker at 85 if compaeed to 70F. Thisnis the lroblem. Plus, the oversaturated hot air full of vapor is hard to breathe - have yiu ever been in hot and humid sauna?

 

[DocZ]

As per
my knowledge and experience,
the most frequent bacterial causes of respiratory infections (RI) in reptiles include Aeromonas, Pseudomonas, Mycoplasma, and Salmonella species. These pathogens often take advantage of poor husbandry conditions and weakened immune systems.
The most frequent root causes in chameleon husbandry are absence of pollen in diet (I made
countless experiments, especially montanes are extremely sensitive to it) and combination of too high temperatures and too high humidity induced as a rule through misting at strong basking lights and low ventilation.

Thanks. I think Klebsiella and E. coli are probably also on that list

 

[DocZ]

Generally speaking, water is safer through the GI tract than through the lungs. This is why I feel fogging is more risky. I think breathing fog for hydration is a survival mechanism, but not a necessity.

I think maintained properly a fogger is far less likely to grow pathogenic bacteria or fungi than the plants and surfaces that a Cham would lick water off of in the cage, so the exposure to bad bugs should be significantly lower from fogging than from misting and drinking inside the cage in my opinion

The pink slime in north america is either Serratia marcescens (S. marcescens) or Aureobasidium pullulans (A. pullulans). AKA Bathroom Mold.

This fungus species have not been implicated in pulmonary or systemic mycoses in any reptile literature that I can find, and I suspect fungal pneumonia is much less common than bacterial pneumonia
On an annual basis fungal infections are still fairly uncommon in humans. That being said the reptile immune system is far less advanced than a humans so that incidence could be significantly higher in reptiles than in humans

https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S1473-3099(23)00692-8

 

[jamest0o0]

well, mybresearxh showed otherwise: many chameleons have NOTHING TO DRINK fir many months and in that months even feeders. ecome so dry and unavailable that they can not cover their need with them, but they stay hydrated without drinking a drip through the fog drinking. It is not speculation, ot is a proven fact. Therefore, IMHO it is much more logical and natural, that in captivity we try to replicate the dominant hydration method (fogdrinking) and not an emergency compensating me hanosm (drinking liquid water) and force rhem to drink more than they would normally. While dessicating at dry air at night, they need to drink much more than they would need (zero) when they woukd have fog. In other wirds instead of gaining weight through hydration at night, they do jot fain and they even lose: so the loss to be compensated is double…

I believe that, but that’s my *thinking* is that it is a survival mechanism, but not necessarily optimal. I feel more comfortable with my chameleon getting most of their water through the GI tract because I feel that would have less risk.

Ventilation is beneficial with misting because the chameleon is drinking the water. So during the mist, temps cool off regardless of lights being on. Once stopped, as temps warmed back up the evaporated water(humidity) would flow out of the cage. With fogging there isn’t much escape as it’s densely blowing over the chameleon and they are forced to breathe it in. I think this is also why we can see chameleons outside on the US east coast without problems where it is hot and humid. The air flow is enough that there aren’t a surplus of pathogens being recycled into the chameleon’s lungs. Granted you mention mold, it’s pretty impossible to avoid fungal spores around here. Especially anyone living near the woods(many of us) or houses with old damp basements. I run multiple hepa filters and it still doesn’t make a dent in the allergens/mold around here because it’s just part of the nature.

 

[jamest0o0]

I think maintained properly a fogger is far less likely to grow pathogenic bacteria or fungi than the plants and surfaces that a Cham would lick water off of in the cage, so the exposure to bad bugs should be significantly lower from fogging than from misting and drinking inside the cage in my opinion

This fungus species have not been implicated in pulmonary or systemic mycoses in any reptile literature that I can find, and I suspect fungal pneumonia is much less common than bacterial pneumonia
On an annual basis fungal infections are still fairly uncommon in humans. That being said the reptile immune system is far less advanced than a humans so that incidence could be significantly higher in reptiles than in humans

https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S1473-3099(23)00692-8

Come on doc, you’re better than me with this…. There is far more pathogens in anything we eat/drink than what we inhale. But it’s where they are going that is the problem. The GI tract of most animals can handle a whole lot, after all chameleons eat insects. Inhaling something into your lungs is a different story, the lungs are far more sensitive… and I say this knowing full well that you know more about this than I do

 

[jamest0o0]

I’d also mention I’ve never seen my parsons lick anything, they open their mouths to drink and let the water roll in. Panthers on the other hand will go crazy licking leaves.

 

[jamest0o0]

well, mybresearxh showed otherwise: many chameleons have NOTHING TO DRINK fir many months and in that months even feeders. ecome so dry and unavailable that they can not cover their need with them, but they stay hydrated without drinking a drip through the fog drinking. It is not speculation, ot is a proven fact. Therefore, IMHO it is much more logical and natural, that in captivity we try to replicate the dominant hydration method (fogdrinking) and not an emergency compensating me hanosm (drinking liquid water) and force rhem to drink more than they would normally. While dessicating at dry air at night, they need to drink much more than they would need (zero) when they woukd have fog. In other wirds instead of gaining weight through hydration at night, they do jot fain and they even lose: so the loss to be compensated is double…

This logic that it happens in nature so it must be good is flawed IMO. Animals adapt to survive their environments, if we did the same things nature intended us originally we’d still be dying left and right. Now, that’s not to say there aren’t natural things that are good, there are plenty. I say this as a person that likes naturalized way of doing this as well. My only point here is that just because it’s natural, doesn’t mean it’s optimal. It could and it could not…

 

[DocZ]

Come on doc, you’re better than me with this…. There is far more pathogens in anything we eat/drink than what we inhale. But it’s where they are going that is the problem. The GI tract of most animals can handle a whole lot, after all chameleons eat insects. Inhaling something into your lungs is a different story, the lungs are far more sensitive… and I say this knowing full well that you know more about this than I do

I agree my friend (about more pathogens in ingestion vs inhalation, I’m only better at anesthesia than most everyone I know. I don’t claim superiority in anything else ). I guess my point is I think the bad bugs are already in the enclosure, but not necessarily in the fogger

Your lungs are also “filtering” as they respire
Do you think every fungal spore you breathe gets to your alveoli? Of course not

The structure of the upper respiratory tract and “upper” lower tract is designed to catch crap and send it back out with cilia and other processes. (Smokers disrupt the process and prevent proper expulsion of bad stuff)

 

[nightanole]

I still want to know the frequency and technique folks use to keep there foggers clean...

Thinking about the pvc hard tube. If it is large enough you might be very easy to just tie a string around a face cloth and pull it through the pipe. That might make it extremely easy to clean quickly once a week.

 

[jamest0o0]

I agree my friend (about more pathogens in ingestion vs inhalation, I’m only better at anesthesia than most everyone I know. I don’t claim superiority in anything else ). I guess my point is I think the bad bugs are already in the enclosure, but not necessarily in the fogger

Your lungs are also “filtering” as they respire
Do you think every fungal spore you breathe gets to your alveoli? Of course not

The structure of the upper respiratory tract and “upper” lower tract is designed to catch crap and send it back out with cilia and other processes. (Smokers disrupt the process and prevent proper expulsion of bad stuff)

Ay! knowing anesthesia requires a complex understanding of the body systems (btw , I hope to be learning from people like you in the nearish future).

I like to think my alveoli are just tough fighting off any spores making it to them…

Lol, but anyway chameleons lungs are supposed to be less complex without the ability to clear secretions, making them more vulnerable, no?

 

[DocZ]

Ay! knowing anesthesia requires a complex understanding of the body systems (btw , I hope to be learning from people like you in the nearish future).

I like to think my alveoli are just tough fighting off any spores making it to them…

Lol, but anyway chameleons lungs are supposed to be less complex without the ability to clear secretions, making them more vulnerable, no?

I believe that is true, but my reptile biology is lacking compared to humans

 

[jamest0o0]

I believe that is true, but my reptile biology is lacking compared to humans

Mines lacking just in general

 

[DocZ]

I still want to know the frequency and technique folks use to keep there foggers clean...

Thinking about the pvc hard tube. If it is large enough you might be very easy to just tie a string around a face cloth and pull it through the pipe. That might make it extremely easy to clean quickly once a week.

I kept my pvc runs short enough (just add a joint if you need to shorten it) that I could use long handled scrub brushes throughout the length of them

I did it once or twice a week, and exchanged the system to let the other completely dry. Some of what I read makes me think adding vinegar to the cleaning process would also be beneficial

 

[PetNcs]

I believe that, but that’s my *thinking* is that it is a survival mechanism, but not necessarily optimal. I feel more comfortable with my chameleon getting most of their water through the GI tract because I feel that would have less risk.

Ventilation is beneficial with misting because the chameleon is drinking the water. So during the mist, temps cool off regardless of lights being on. Once stopped, as temps warmed back up the evaporated water(humidity) would flow out of the cage. With fogging there isn’t much escape as it’s densely blowing over the chameleon and they are forced to breathe it in. I think this is also why we can see chameleons outside on the US east coast without problems where it is hot and humid. The air flow is enough that there aren’t a surplus of pathogens being recycled into the chameleon’s lungs. Granted you mention mold, it’s pretty impossible to avoid fungal spores around here. Especially anyone living near the woods(many of us) or houses with old damp basements. I run multiple hepa filters and it still doesn’t make a dent in the allergens/mold around here because it’s just part of the nature.

well, I understand your view
and position, though I do not share it.

I was in Florida several times. Hot and humid? few months in a year, freezing cold and foggy? Also many months…

I have seen in my 40years chameleons in the wild and they really do NOT drink, so why we should force them to do so in the captivity? I keep hundreds of chameleons in an area with daily dense fog and they do fabulously. They drink only at night and only if there is no fog for over a week. I sneak into their private life with cameras and instruments to measure all. I kept them with foggers for decades and had no issues and I do not speak about the common and well captivity tolerating species only, I speak about Brookesia, tiny Rhampholeons, montanes from 7000feet and South Africans and mediterraneans. All doing well in fog. I tried all natural fog outdoors and artificial fog outside and artificial fog indoors and combination…

Simply, I have experience and evidence that drinking is NOT what chameleons do at daytime and tried to do all the research in the wild and all the experiments in captivity to make it a. ia le relkication. Thousands of people have good experience with it. Most problems and hesitation comes from people that did it long time different way and are hesitant to change the winning formula.

it is your discretion to decide what you do,
I respect it, I have you all info I could

 

[PetNcs]

Question: do you think it’s more likely pathogenic bacteria will grow in a fogger with essentially water and some minerals or in an enclosure with an animal, poop, plants, and bugs?

i ised all kinds of wayer. tap water, RO and distulled one. Therebis ni reason you would have a harmful ammount of pathogens in the water and even if, they will be killed by the piezoelectric action. Then the fog does not contain them basically.
some airborne pathogens circulate everywhere and they of course can be present and sometimes limitedly grow even in the cages.
I guess if the xage is oriperly managed, has enough living olants, gets dry at daytime and moist at low temps at night, does not accumulate moist, mold friendle environments like dead corners or ropes or dead moss vines or coconut walls and other creations, it is not a big issue.

 

[PetNcs]

Under the assumption that we are keeping healthy Chams in our community, I think some of these concerns are alleviated with proper maintenance of the device and good care of your cham

exactly

an immunosuppressed chameleon will have problems even with otherwise harmless irritants

 

[DocZ]

I kept my pvc runs short enough (just add a joint if you need to shorten it) that I could use long handled scrub brushes throughout the length of them

I did it once or twice a week, and exchanged the system to let the other completely dry. Some of what I read makes me think adding vinegar to the cleaning process would also be beneficial

But a towel and push rod like cleaning a rifle would work too

 

[nightanole]

But a towel and push rod like cleaning a rifle would work too

I was thinking this




Or using a shop vac and sucking a few wet washcloths through the tubes.

 

[DocZ]

I was thinking this




Or using a shop vac and sucking a few wet washcloths through the tubes.

That was very satisfying to watch

 

[PetNcs]

Here is our discussion from 5 years ago.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/foggers-a-tool-or-a-danger.173556/

efoee mu artixle on fog has been published

since then, thousands of people ise it without any problems

This logic that it happens in nature so it must be good is flawed IMO. Animals adapt to survive their environments, if we did the same things nature intended us originally we’d still be dying left and right. Now, that’s not to say there aren’t natural things that are good, there are plenty. I say this as a person that likes naturalized way of doing this as well. My only point here is that just because it’s natural, doesn’t mean it’s optimal. It could and it could not…

I tried to explain
I quit
it is theorizing based on personal preference, this can not be beaten and leads to nothing.
yes, a horse can also survive when getting all nutrients intravenously.
swallowing chewed grass is ot the only way jow horses can feed, and somehow, some people do not like the smel of chewed hay