Are our Caresheets Wrong??

PetNcs

Avid Member
Thanks for the information, and reply.

That cricket looks fairly large, possibly much larger than our Crickets. Those crickets are illegal in the US, so we do not have a comparison. What would the ratio be to a Banded Cricket? Do you have access to those over the pond?
No, itnis eaay to find out
 

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
No, itnis eaay to find out
I was looking, couldn't find much. I found a paper on it now, its "G. bimaculatus females and males, it was 0.912 ± 0.028 and 0.626 ± 0.028 g, respectively." .
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0218830

Does that sound about right? Thats more than double the US available Species that I know of, in weight. @nightanole is the bug weight guru though, any thoughts?

So if those numbers are correct, it would be 2 large crickets for US keepers, those black ones are twice the size of our available species.
 

PetNcs

Avid Member
For a brief poll, does anyones cham "bake under the heatlamp all day long"? For me, regardless of setup(and only had panthers/veiled) the pattern was always; warm up under the lamp, run a around for an hour or more, return to lamp and warm up, repeat. I never had one that was addicted to basking.

Ive also never had one that tried to drink itself silly. I think in 5 years of misting i saw Hairy drink 3-4 times, the rest of the time he just deals with it till the misting stops. I guess there could be big drinkers that when you hand mist them they go nutts for it. I have only seen this when they are straight out of the shipping cup.
the question is how long donyiu have the basking lights ON per day...?
 

nightanole

Chameleon Enthusiast
the question is how long donyiu have the basking lights ON per day...?
whole day, 12 hours. I was just curious if we had any all day bakers on the site and how they mitigated it. We have had plenty of burn cases, but that is caused by first time improper setups, or swapping bulbs and the new bulb is a different wattage or beam width.
 

nightanole

Chameleon Enthusiast
I was looking, couldn't find much. I found a paper on it now, its "G. bimaculatus females and males, it was 0.912 ± 0.028 and 0.626 ± 0.028 g, respectively." .
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0218830

Does that sound about right? Thats more than double the US available Species that I know of, in weight. @nightanole is the bug weight guru though, any thoughts?

So if those numbers are correct, it would be 2 large crickets for US keepers, those black ones are twice the size of our available species.
adult banded cricket = .25g
male adult dubia = 1.50g
female adult dubia = 3.00g
I tried a 1" nymph but it was 1.25g so i kinda gave up.
adult superworm = .50g

Yea the big black ones around here(Gryllus veletis) look like they could take out a baby cham pretty easy :p
 
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cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
I leave my lights on 12 hours, and have the same behavior, Bask, Activity, Bask, Activity, ECT.

adult banded cricket = .25g
male adult dubia = 1.50g
female adult dubia = 3.00g
adult superworm = .50g

Going by that, if my normal rate is 2 dozen crickets, thats 3 adult male dubia by nutrition content.

If you want other sizes let me know. I tried a 1" nymph but it was 1.25g so i kinda gave up.
Yep, but according to the link, the Cricket Petr is talking about, is 2x the size of a banded for a male, and 4x the size for a female. If we split the difference as an average, .75g per day, so an adult male Dubia every other day or so, would be similar to Petrs 1 of those Crickets per Day.

So like you had said earlier, its pretty much equivalent to 3/4 Adult Male Dubia per week.

@Lennoncham so that was the issue, with our interpretation of 1 cricket per day. His crickets are worth 3-4 of our crickets.

@PetNcs that may be something you might want to include in your care sheet. As the US that huge cricket you have is not legal, and ours are 1/2 to 1/4 the size. So for US keepers, 1 cricket per day, when they are feeding bandeds, isnt going to be anywhere near enough.


Here is a comparison with a Male G. bimaculatus VS the Crickets we have Stateside.

 
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Lennoncham

Chameleon Enthusiast
whole day, 12 hours. I was just curious if we had any all day bakers on the site and how they mitigated it. We have had plenty of burn cases, but that is caused by first time improper setups, or swapping bulbs and the new bulb is a different wattage or beam width.
I also keep my lights on all day (12 hrs) and my chams do exactly what you described. Wake up , go bask for a bit, explore , bask , explore , bask , head to sleeping spot and wait for lights out.
 

PetNcs

Avid Member
whole day, 12 hours. I was just curious if we had any all day bakers on the site and how they mitigated it. We have had plenty of burn cases, but that is caused by first time improper setups, or swapping bulbs and the new bulb is a different wattage or beam

IMHO javing basking lamp
oN while day is fkr many soecies unnatural, fkr many lethal and fir some unnecessary.

they do nit need to bask and in the wikd, rhey donot

as a ruke, they bask just few tenths of
Minutes in a say: i. The morninv and in the laye afyernoon. The reat of the day: no basking...
Sk why theh should get 12 h basking bulb ON? For me, it makes no sense
 

PetNcs

Avid Member
@PetNcs that may be something you might want to include in your care sheet. As the US that huge cricket you have is not legal, and ours are 1/2 to 1/4 the size. So for US keepers, 1 cricket per day, when they are feeding bandeds, isnt going to be anywhere near enough.
I will consider it, thank you
 

Lennoncham

Chameleon Enthusiast
I would seriously ask myself then the question what ai do in my husbandry so that I force the chameleon to change his natural behavior.
im somewhat confused by this. This is just my thinking and more of questions then thoughts.

in nature the sun is out all day is not? I understand your saying they only bask for a few minutes in nature.

in captivity we don’t have birds and other predators around. Maybe in the wild they only bask for a bit because of this?

is the air itself hot/humid in Madagascar? This can be hard to replicate at home. And may contribute to less heat loss?

do your captive chameleons only bask for a few mins a day? Are they doing this by choice or because you only provide a basking spot for a couple hours a day?
 

PetNcs

Avid Member
im somewhat confused by this. This is just my thinking and more of questions then thoughts.

in nature the sun is out all day is not? I understand your saying they only bask for a few minutes in nature.

in captivity we don’t have birds and other predators around. Maybe in the wild they only bask for a bit because of this?

is the air itself hot/humid in Madagascar? This can be hard to replicate at home. And may contribute to less heat loss?

do your captive chameleons only bask for a few mins a day? Are they doing this by choice or because you only provide a basking spot for a couple hours a day?
sim is indeeda aa ot
Everpresent as it often fets civered with clouds deoending in season and geoposition

hour thiught would mean that when they bask, oredators are not around
Or not active while during the day they are. This is NOT the case
They di jot bask because ince they increase the bidu temperature to the desired level, rhey eacape the excess heat, that it is

rhe humidity of the air is by definjtions of simple
Physixs a function of temleratire and pressure. So, once temperature raises the same same air. Wxomes drier and vice. Ersa.
This lrocess is also base fir building dew. Wjike the temperature drops to the dew point, the hunidity becomes chigher and highet and when it reaches Q100^, it syarts to condensate in the form of fogg, clouds or mist or dew
My captive
Xhameleons
bask
Exactky same
Way as in the wild because ai lrovide them heat onmy in the moments when they bask in the wild,
Actually little
Longer. They never stay basking till
The end, they retreat as a ruke earlier,
Befire the light switch off
 

ferretinmyshoes

Veterinarian
Staff member
First off, thank you to all for keeping this discussion for the most part civil as it's clearly a hotly debated topic. I personally bristled in favor of both sides multiple times reading through this thread! So I want to offer some of my thoughts as providing up to date caresheets is very near and dear to my heart.

@PetNcs I am admittedly a big fan of yours! I love your books and still love to flip through them just for fun. I enjoy the scientific representation that you provide and very much value your time and expertise with your field research. Your work was my source of reference for pygmies especially and some of the more unusual species that do not have a lot of information published.

Do not be offended when people for credentials or proof of claims. I for one think it is WONDERFUL! I've been training this community to do exactly that for years and much of the population of the world would benefit from this thought process when new information is presented. With the exponentially expanding scientific illiteracy of the world it is important to seek validated sources of information before buying them at face value. A well respected name should not automatically buy trust, but unfortunately this is case with many celebrities promoting pseudoscience or outright anti-science agendas. So even though I'm sure you don't appreciate being questioned on your authority in the field I encourage you to see the positives in that practice.

I am the primary author of the CF caresheets so any concerns with their accuracy or needing more up to date information absolutely interests me. As has been said, these are written for the newbies primarily. It is a starting point for chameleon care for someone that has absolutely no prior knowledge. The methods are safe and tested extensively by many experienced chameleon keepers. I never tout that they are the only method nor that the information should never be questioned. Things change all the time as we learn new things and it's important to keep an open mind when developing a resource. But I do think considerations have to be made for captive care methods versus wild chameleon habitats. They will not be exactly the same and that's the unfortunate truth. We know where there are some limits, such as temperatures over a certain threshold are much more likely to cause thermal burns when provided from a single source heat lamp even though in the wild the sun may exceed those temperatures regularly. The caresheets were written with these priorities in mind. Captive environments have so many other variables that have to be taken into consideration than just how the environment would be in nature.

That being said, the parts of the caresheets that you are criticizing are honestly nitpicking and it makes me a little cross to read your comments. Sure, it's not a true "crest" but if you ask a layperson what that thing on their head is they will call it a crest. It's a reference to layman's terms, not true anatomical skeletal features. In regards to them "frequently changing colors when threatened" I did not mean frequent as in back and forth and perhaps that's a language barrier because that's not generally how that is interpreted. It means when threatened they will often change colors in response as opposed to not changing colors. You mention multiple times how you don't think certain comments have value included in a caresheet - this is not a strict scientific reference. It was written to incorporate details that I think are important for chameleon owners to know based on commonly asked questions asked all the time here on the forums, and common problems. Such as limited handling - people are looking at the caresheets to determine if it's the right pet for them and this is extremely important in my opinion for them to know ahead of time. Are they important in a scientific reference? No, absolutely not. But that's not what these are and I won't defend them as such. They were written to address both care methods and common questions and dispel common myths where possible. If this is the only thing they ever read about chameleon care I want them to get more than bare bones husbandry basics. That's my reasoning and philosophy and it was agreed upon with the other admin of the forums as our goal.

Sure if partial albinism is technically more correct that hypomelanistic then that can be changed. I defer to your expertise in scientific terminology there. But just nitpicking details because you don't like how or why something is included rankles me a bit. We thought out the contents of the caresheets carefully. If you would like to argue temperatures and diet and details that are more important to the health of chameleons instead of just my writing style then I am willing to listen but I would like to see more information on why those are recommended for captive care or how it is superior to what is currently recommended because I am a person of science as well and that's just how I operate. :)
 
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PetNcs

Avid Member
First off, thank you to all for keeping this discussion for the most part civil as it's clearly a hotly debated topic. I personally bristled in favor of both sides multiple times reading through this thread! So I want to offer some of my thoughts as providing up to date caresheets is very near and dear to my heart.

@PetNcs I am admittedly a big fan of yours! I love your books and still love to flip through them just for fun. I enjoy the scientific representation that you provide and very much value your time and expertise with your field research. Your work was my source of reference for pygmies especially and some of the more unusual species that do not have a lot of information published.

Do not be offended when people for credentials or proof of claims. I for one think it is WONDERFUL! I've been training this community to do exactly that for years and much of the population of the world would benefit from this thought process when new information is presented. With the exponentially expanding scientific illiteracy of the world it is important to seek validated sources of information before buying them at face value. A well respected name should not automatically buy trust, but unfortunately this is case with many celebrities promoting pseudoscience or outright anti-science agendas. So even though I'm sure you don't appreciate being questioned on your authority in the field I encourage you to see the positives in that practice.

I am the primary author of the CF caresheets so any concerns with their accuracy or needing more up to date information absolutely interests me. As has been said, these are written for the newbies primarily. It is a starting point for chameleon care for someone that has absolutely no prior knowledge. The methods are safe and tested extensively by many experienced chameleon keepers. I never tout that they are the only method nor that the information should never be questioned. Things change all the time as we learn new things and it's important to keep an open mind when developing a resource. But I do think considerations have to be made for captive care methods versus wild chameleon habitats. They will not be exactly the same and that's the unfortunate truth. We know where there are some limits, such as temperatures over a certain threshold are much more likely to cause thermal burns when provided from a single source heat lamp even though in the wild the sun may exceed those temperatures regularly. The caresheets were written with these priorities in mind. Captive environments have so many other variables that have to be taken into consideration than just how the environment would be in nature.

That being said, the parts of the caresheets that you are criticizing are honestly nitpicking and it makes me a little cross to read your comments. Sure, it's not a true "crest" but if you ask a layperson what that thing on their head is they will call it a crest. It's a reference to layman's terms, not true anatomical skeletal features. In regards to them "frequently changing colors when threatened" I did not mean frequent as in back and forth and perhaps that's a language barrier because that's not generally how that is interpreted. It means when threatened they will often change colors in response as opposed to not changing colors. You mention multiple times how you don't think certain comments have value included in a caresheet - this is not a strict scientific reference. It was written to incorporate details that I think are important for chameleon owners to know based on commonly asked questions asked all the time here on the forums, and common problems. Such as limited handling - people are looking at the caresheets to determine if it's the right pet for them and this is extremely important in my opinion for them to know ahead of time. Are they important in a scientific reference? No, absolutely not. But that's not what these are and I won't defend them as such. They were written to address both care methods and common questions and dispel common myths where possible. If this is the only thing they ever read about chameleon care I want them to get more than bare bones husbandry basics. That's my reasoning and philosophy and it was agreed upon with the other admin of the forums as our goal.

Sure if partial albinism is technically more correct that hypomelanistic then that can be changed. I defer to your expertise in scientific terminology there. But just nitpicking details because you don't like how or why something is included rankles me a bit. We thought out the contents of the caresheets carefully. If you would like to argue temperatures and diet and details that are more important to the health of chameleons instead of just my writing style then I am willing to listen but I would like to see more information on why those are recommended for captive care or how it is superior to what is currently recommended because I am a person of science as well and that's just how I operate. :)
Thank yiu for the warm words at the beginning.
I am happy to hear someone values my contribution to chameleonolgy.

concerning the caresheets i suggest to stop the debate because we get to a dead end.
Ag one side, I am xballenged by someone ans aggressively questioned in every if my statements and asked fir evidence and cirrectness and on other side, yiu preaent a care sheet that just starting reading brings unnecessary redundant information and usage of terms in an unclear and/or evidently wrong way. Sorry, ai do NOT buy that yiu are OK with it and happy to meeo the inaccuracies there bexause ti clean uo the text does NOT make ii neither less readable nor anything else.
This is exrremely inconsistent.
At ine side hystery if beibg verified and.peer reviewed and accurate and in the ither side be very tillerant and for
Me eing wrong beyond the limit that I can accept. Of course accelting the language things yiu mentioned.
Look,
Ai invested miee than 2 hours if my time just to analyze an intdro tk one sheet and found inconsistences and bugs in almost every senrence.
If yij aee i terested in hping to improve the sheets, I am ready to do it only under the condition that they will be cleaned uo properly. I can not sign a work that I understand you might suggest: let us clean the mosf important parts and the rest let us keep
As is even knowing it is not correct.
I say NO to the katter aplroaxh and tell yiu why: as a scientist and as a teacher.

if yij alliw people call the casque a crest now, they will loose the base to build uo their knowledge ulon solid base and will need to de-learn and re-define their base. That is painful, inefficient, untrustworthy, irresponsible and wrong.
And, itnis not necessary...

j am lerfectky fine with you saying: we do nit need that or ai feel
Offended by such approach as tiu kidly but clearly are repeatedly saying if Inunderstand you correctky.

yiur choice
I am ready to help
And J am ready to lead any respecrful debatand really sorry fir my terrible thpos, ti am
After three eyes surgeries and not back to see lroperly yet
 

ferretinmyshoes

Veterinarian
Staff member
No, at this time we are not interested in redoing the caresheets entirely to your specifications. However, I respect your authority and if there is information regarding care that needs to be changed based on verifiable captive care experiments proving their improved effect then yes, we are interested in that information so that we can update the caresheets to reflect that.

I hope that you have a swift recovery from your surgeries and wish you all the best! I will always be a fan of your contributions.
 

PetNcs

Avid Member
No, at this time we are not interested in redoing the caresheets entirely to your specifications. However, I respect your authority and if there is information regarding care that needs to be changed based on verifiable captive care experiments proving their improved effect then yes, we are interested in that information so that we can update the caresheets to reflect that.

I hope that you have a swift recovery from your surgeries and wish you all the best! I will always be a fan of your contributions.
keeo them as they are then, i di not want to have my name associated with anything I can not sign and with the ohilosophy to keep
It knowingly wrong or less right than it could be...
 

Ruthless

Established Member
Thanks for the information, and reply.

That cricket looks fairly large, possibly much larger than our Crickets. Those crickets are illegal in the US, so we do not have a comparison. What would the ratio be to a Banded Cricket? Do you have access to those over the pond?




Just a personal opinion, I haven't found much studies on this exact aspect. However I am very much against the idea of flipping lights on and off, its completely unnatural. That includes flipping on of the basking light in the morning, flipping on of the UVB, Flipping off of both at night. Especially flipping a light on and off throughout the day. That is just an opinion, based on nature.

However this is a very much agreed on in the hobby of reptiles as a whole in this case. Its said not to use an On/Off thermostat, to avoid the very situation you are creating. Most folks in the hobby are okay, flipping lights on in the morning however, which I do not see as ideal either.

Depending on your supplemental lighting, you may be creating a even more unnatural environment by flipping the lights on and off, due to your supplemental lighting. UVB bulbs, are about as far from natural light as you can get. To start they are around 8500k, for the 6%s, they are spiked in only a few of the spectra, and IMO just a generally poor light source. We need them for now, but they are still horrible light source.

Chameleons 100% can detect that change in lighting, and will adjust behavior, mood, and rhythm based on it.
Definitely agree but we do what we can to make things the best we can. I only shut off and on the basking light my UVB and 6500k lights will stay on the whole 12 hours. With the basking light going off for 20 minutes of the hour its kinda like nature when clouds cover the sun. And my ambient temps stay in the upper 70’s. What are your thoughts on that?
 

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
Definitely agree but we do what we can to make things the best we can. I only shut off and on the basking light my UVB and 6500k lights will stay on the whole 12 hours. With the basking light going off for 20 minutes of the hour its kinda like nature when clouds cover the sun. And my ambient temps stay in the upper 70’s. What are your thoughts on that?
Yes that makes sense, and that's exactly what it's doing, is creating a cloud cover. Truly in more way than one.

A bright sunny day, is 5600-6500kish, a cloud cover is 9-10k. Our UVB lights are around 8400ish (varies, by percentage and bulb to bulb, brand to brand.)

So the low light, high blue, is deifnatly representative of cloud cover. So is likely fine.
 
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