Are our Caresheets Wrong??

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
You're just looking for trouble aren't you haha
Not at all.

I am just looking for a disccusion comparing facts from fiction, if our care sheets are wrong, and could use updating than we should do that.

Brody is always posting Petr Nectas posts, and I was alerted to the existence of this site, so figured I'd do the same. Just looking for productive, valid disccusion :).
 

Ruthless

Established Member
All jokes aside... I see a lot of differences between what we recommend here on the forums versus these care sheets.

My biggest qualm with these is that they don't differentiate between gender or age of chameleon.
TBH who are we to judge what’s right or wrong? Dose nature say oh your a male/female/juvenile or neonates these are wild animals we keep in captivity to our best knowledge. For instance Veilds and Panther are found in Florida along with many other reptiles that have adjusted and thriving.
 

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
TBH who are we to judge what’s right or wrong? Dose nature say oh your a male/female/juvenile or neonates these are wild animals we keep in captivity to our best knowledge. For instance Veilds and Panther are found in Florida along with many other reptiles that have adjusted and thriving.
We differentiate gender, to defy nature.

A Female Panther Chameleon in the wild, will have clutches of 70-90 eggs, so will yours if you give her the same temps and amount of food as a male. Thats fine, if you want 70-90 malnourished baby's and a dead mama, because laying a clutch that size alot of the time means death. If she survives the first time, of a 90 clutch, she likely wont survive the next that is going to come in 2-3 months.

We reduce food, and reduce Heat (Thereby, reducing the processing of food, which reduces metabolism and food intake naturally) to reduce clutch size and frequency to extend life.

However, there is a flip side to your statement. Madagascar hits upper 90s, every day where Panther Hail, Yemen is well over 110. So if we are going to use nature as the argument, then why are we suggesting low 80s for an animal that exposed to 110 every single day? Going against nature, is what these care sheets are suggesting, they are further from nature, by a lot more, than ours are.


"Who are we to judge whats right or wrong" - We are the people that began taking chameleons as Pets, 40 years ago. When we did this, we got them to live a few months, a Year you were doing great, 2 years your breaking ground. Fast forward 40 years, and we have by trial and error, and dead chams galore, extended that 1-2year wild lifespan, and 1year at best in captivity, and extended it to where Chams now live 5-7 years for panthers on average. We have more than doubled their wild lifespan, and even more increased their captive one.
 
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cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
Jesus. Two crickets a day? How are they getting five to seven year averages then?
5-7 averages, is from our Sheets, the theory is, these care sheets will make 8-10 years the average for panthers. I say theory as these sheets are very very new, less than a year old.

Oh and,

"Your Chameleon is Fat" - Petr Nectas



There is also a Easter Egg, of an issue here, that no one seems to have caught (or mentioned) yet.

Everyone of those care sheets, is different than the other, Whether it be humidity or temperatures, those care sheets are not even stating the same information, and they come from the same site, and are obviously made by the same person. So this well tested, data on how to care for chameleons changes with the wind :p.

Veiled:

Basking Spot: "26-28c (82.4f)" - Profile, "27-30c (86f)" - Care Sheet

Temperature At Night: "Max 21-23c (73.4)" - Profile, "Max 20-22c (71.6f)"

Day Humidity: "Under 40%" - Profile, "Under 50%" - Care Sheet.


Panther:

Temperature At Daytime: "23-26c (78.8f)" - Profile, "Max 21-23c (73.4f)"

Temperature At Night: "Max 21-23c (73.4)" - Profile, "Max 20-22c (71.6f)"


Jacksons:

Day Humidity: "Under 60%" - Profile, "50% - 70%" - Care Sheet.

@Brodybreaux25 thoughts?
 
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Ruthless

Established Member
@cyberlocc yes Madagascar and Yeman hit those high temps but I would think like with any reptile they will move about to adjust what fits there needs. I couldn’t see any reptile just basking in the high temperatures all day. I live in the Mojave desert aka Antelope Valley and keep my Rhino and Cuban rock iguanas outdoors in the spring and summer months. Temperatures will reach 90 degrees by 9am and up to 110 in the early afternoon. So my iguanas will be out basking the early hours then retreat to the burrows till the late afternoon. So I would think just like the iguanas the chameleons will retreat to the mid to lower canopies to adjust correct? What are your thoughts? This what I meant by nature if that makes sense.
 

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
@cyberlocc yes Madagascar and Yeman hit those high temps but I would think like with any reptile they will move about to adjust what fits there needs. I couldn’t see any reptile just basking in the high temperatures all day. I live in the Mojave desert aka Antelope Valley and keep my Rhino and Cuban rock iguanas outdoors in the spring and summer months. Temperatures will reach 90 degrees by 9am and up to 110 in the early afternoon. So my iguanas will be out basking the early hours then retreat to the burrows till the late afternoon. So I would think just like the iguanas the chameleons will retreat to the mid to lower canopies to adjust correct? What are your thoughts? This what I meant by nature if that makes sense.
I think that depends highly on the Animal, and its needs, and what it wants.

The issue here lies, with the Facts. That again, the caresheets here are what people have been using for Decades, and the Chameleons bask just fine, retreat when done, and return when they need to.

Why not let the animal decide, what the animal wants? Read that sheet again, Petr is saying to give Male Adult Panthers and Veileds a 86 degree top basking temperature, and to only do so for 1 hour in the morning and 1 hour at night.

He is contesting temperatures that have worked for 30 years, and have had the approval of vets and biologists of which he is neither, with Zero evidence to his claim or reasoning and just wants us to accept it as fact because he says it is? All the while, he cant even keep his care sheets to have the same information?

The care sheets here, are not from waking up one day and saying "Yep this is the temperature chameleon needs, this is how long it needs it, this is how much food it should be given". These numbers that are given, are from YEARS of use, and Thousands of Chameleons across thousands of Keepers. They have been tried, they have worked, in many sitations and thus have became touted as the correct advice. They are mirrored on millions of websites, and studies, and keepers knowledge.

We are going to challenge all that with "You have been doing it all wrong, because Petr woke up today and decided so"......

I know he thinks he is "The Chameleon Godfather" but he isn't, he is a hobbyist that got to visit some cool places, and wrote a book, nothing more. I thought Herpetology was a Science, not a Facebook Popularity contest, guess I was wrong.
 
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nightanole

Chameleon Enthusiast
Jesus. Two crickets a day? How are they getting five to seven year averages then?
Honestly that seems about right for an an adult. A little over a dozen adult crickets. Mine only ate 3-4 male dubia a week. Now a growing cham is a cricket vacuum and you are talking a dozen or 2 a day :)
 

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
Honestly that seems about right for an an adult. A little over a dozen adult crickets. Mine only ate 3-4 male dubia a week. Now a growing cham is a cricket vacuum and you are talking a dozen or 2 a day :)
2 for Panthers only, it says Veileds should only have 1.

It also doesn't specify the size of the cricket or the type. The "Large Crickets" my local per store has, it would take 5-6 to equal an adult Dubia make. Maybe, 5/8s long, 3/4 tops.

There mediums are barely bigger then pins. Under 1/4 inch.
 

snitz427

Chameleon Enthusiast
I fond it hard to believe food is that scarce in their habitats.... in my local forests insects are everywhere. Spiders, moths, flies, and bees are hard to avoid. Crickets and grasshoppers aren’t hard to find in the park at rhe end of the road. I could see 2 or 3 decent sized bugs easy to come across in their space.

My veileds are ruthless. They would eat all day given the choice... and after a “big”
meal they’ll soon be searching the cage bottom for more (isopods and strays). They don’t sit still for long at all. I’m surprised he says they’d eat less. The panthers turn their nose up after a few bugs, so I can see that, but not the veileds.

I’d happily abide by the lower basking temps with my recent incident. Actually i did for a year and my guy was quite happy around 85 degrees basking for a year... but this winter we bumped it up after it burned out and he ended up with a “possible” uri. They do seem more comfortable at 85, but really dont know if his uri (if he even had one) was caused by it.
 

Lennoncham

Chameleon Enthusiast
These show the same supplement schedule for Jackson’s as it does for veileds and panthers. But I guess that wouldn’t really matter since they won’t get much with their 1 cricket a day.:unsure:
 

Carlton

Chameleon Enthusiast
When I read this my impression is this:

Petr Necas is entitled to his opinion as all of us are. If he is basing these recommendations (and that is what they are, not Gospel) on biological data that that he has observed in the wild, they should fairly be open to speculation and skepticism. Demonstrated success in captive situations is due to very different parameters. Trying to reconcile the two completely is going to create problems. We all know there is more than one "acceptable" way to accomplish many things in cham care. This is no different. Experienced keepers become more discerning about what they do and don't do based on how their animals respond. Newbies need leading; they don't have the ability (yet) to modify what people tell them safely. I'd say read this information and consider it. Until someone sets up biological trials comparing all these parameters side by side and recording the results over generations we are all still left stating our opinions just as we were when we started.
 

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
Does he have any advanced degrees? Is he affiliated with a university? Is he a herpetologist or zoologist?
AFAIK, and can find, that would be a No to all.

When I read this my impression is this:

Petr Necas is entitled to his opinion as all of us are. If he is basing these recommendations (and that is what they are, not Gospel) on biological data that that he has observed in the wild, they should fairly be open to speculation and skepticism. Demonstrated success in captive situations is due to very different parameters. Trying to reconcile the two completely is going to create problems. We all know there is more than one "acceptable" way to accomplish many things in cham care. This is no different. Experienced keepers become more discerning about what they do and don't do based on how their animals respond. Newbies need leading; they don't have the ability (yet) to modify what people tell them safely. I'd say read this information and consider it. Until someone sets up biological trials comparing all these parameters side by side and recording the results over generations we are all still left stating our opinions just as we were when we started.
Right ya, thats all fine and good, the "Petr Necas is entitled to his opinion as all of us are. If he is basing these recommendations (and that is what they are, not Gospel)". If that were the case, its not however.

He is pushing this, with the Pretense that if you do not follow these guidelines, you are a horrid keeper, you will kill your chameleon, and your chameleon is not living as long as it should. He states this, on pretty much a daily basis.

Onwards to the fact, that newer keepers are taking this AS GOSPEL, I have received Numerous PMs, since starting this thread, yelling at me telling me "The way you are keeping and the way the forum does, is WRONG, how dare you question Petr". (a lot of which on Facebook, the Facebook crowd knows who I am, here and there)

That is where my Gripe stems, he is creating a cult following, with untested and unproven information, that he is very brashly pushing as Pure Facts.

I approached him, with something he stated long ago, and said well "Madcham.DE, and these articles here state this is the case in that issue" it was pertaining to environments in Madagascar, he said all those sources were Crackpots, he is right they are wrong, the end, bring it up again and you will be removed from the group.

He did the same thing when he was going off how Wild Caught Veileds in Florida, dont have Parasites. Salty made another post (just recently, way after my comment on it over a year ago), Salty just asked he said, in a group where Petr is an Admin. Petr responded to him in DM, after deleting the post, and told him, they dont and stop spreading lies. That is taking it WAY beyond "this is my opinion" and moving into censoring of ideas he doesn't agree with.

That is not presenting an Opinion. That's force feeding fallacy's as facts, and viciously upholding them to be so. Its not his opinions, or ideas I take take issue with, as much as his way of presenting them, as Fact, and Flat out stating "if you dont listen you will kill your animal, you are wrong, you know nothing." to which he says, on a daily basis.


This about Sums up my point completely....

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Oh even better, All Veileds in US captivity come from Petrs Breeding....
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