Are our Caresheets Wrong??

[PetNcs]

Thank you to bring culture inti that conversation

I am extremely humblemifmit comes to ehat I know anout chameleons and after three decades of research and dedication of a big part of my life ti them and to people, i look with tears in eyes on ehat is happening here.
Every answer I get about chameleons ceeates tens of question and J jumbly follow the psth of trying to find out what is the trith and what is just bias, what is reality and what jist opinion. I develop and I correct many of my previous mistakes.

 

[PetNcs]

Hello all, not to “stoke the fire”, but @PetNcs, what exactly are your credentials and experience? I feel experience is to be valued almost as high as formal training. Again, meaning ZERO disrespect, just curious myself as are others I’m sure. If you have explained this before I apologize as I am not aware.

put everyone the credentials on table... this is not the way I will go
It is demeaning and wrong

 

[Kristen Wilkins]

I’ve been watching this thread . Thinking this is glutton for punishment lol .

Experts post caresheets based on good research
Says care sheets are a great starting point for noobies
It seems their is an issue with noobies attack any other care sheets that do not match perfectly with the care sheet they feel is gospel
The only other issue is if experts start saying other experts care sheets are wrong


If people are on veiled generation 3+, they are not going to throw 10-15 years of know how out the window and run with the latest post on the internet. They know what works in their situation.

As an example, a veiled raised in Florida will have a completely different support environment than someone raising one in Montana. The Floridian person is monitoring air conditioning and air flow, not much in terms of humidity. However the Montana folk are monitoring heat and humidity. Both of these people will be making minor compromises based on what they can provide. No one will simulate yemen perfectly all year around, some times it will be too hot, or too humid, or too cold etc. As for me, i can not provide 100% humidity at night during the winter, without a large build up of mold. Others might have problems providing less than 50% humidity during the day.

I love this post and thank you !!. I do think this is what it comes down too . Your own climate and what you can produce . I’m not an expert , vet , biologist , I’m just a simple hobbyist whom loves all chameleon’s , take many methods add them together @PetNcs , @jannb , @kinyonga a few others and have great result . However that result is only 31/2 year . I won’t change it however it works .

 

[PetNcs]

I’m curious what errors theses would be? And if it’s so full of errors why does it reference you as the source of info?

well if I am the source of your Caresheet why I get the impression that all what I do is shit?
i will gladly present my exoert opinion on the caresheets as I jave done several times in the Past conditioned I will be given credit for it and I will talm to responsible person and not to a crowd of people some of whomdare to choose language and tone that is inacceotable

 

[cyberlocc]

It is so embarrassing the way some of you talk about Petr.
Even if you disagree with or question some of the things he says, that does NOT give you the green light to question his character (see words like "eccentric," "close-minded", etc.)

You are mixing 2 separate issues here.

Disagreeing with some of the things he said, is not the stem of the comments as to his character.

I have disagreed with you, a few times, have I ever attacked your character?


The comments about his character, are stemmed from his character. The way he presents his thoughts, the way he puts down others thoughts, those are what has lead to those comments. The fact you think it is simply a language barrier, tells me, you do not have the pleasure of extensive conversation with him, in which you have brought up pause to some of his ideas. He is in this medium, presenting himself very well, and its nice to see so we can exchange ideas. However that is not the same behavior we have seen on other platforms as Snits has said.

I stated that I was being attacked for some of the things I said, or disagreeing with some of Petrs ideas, or rather questioning them. What I did not say, is that I have received 2x as many PMs, stating they have trouble with Petr over the same approach to discussion that I presented.

Again as said, I was not aware Petr was still active here, and my criticism I hope he did read and I hope he takes it to heart. As I am not alone, at all in my thoughts.

Have any of you published any peer-reviewed research papers in any major scientific publication? Petr has at least 8 credits as author across multiple journals, spanning decades. They don't just let anyone do that. Obviously no one should be treated as the end-all-be-all, but for god's sake at least show a basic approximation of respect.

Do you have Links to these? I have asked this before, have yet to see one. Regardless, if you have been published or not, that does not stop fact checking and the requirement for you to back up what you say.

Its the "I am the source" attitude, that I cannot stand, and nor will I ever accept or condone, no one in any scientific profession EVER WOULD.

 

[Lennoncham]

well if I am the source of your Caresheet why I get the impression that all what I do is shit?
i will gladly present my exoert opinion on the caresheets as I jave done several times in the Past conditioned I will be given credit for it and I will talm to responsible person and not to a crowd of people some of whomdare to choose language and tone that is inacceotable

whoa I just asked a question. At the bottom of the care sheets here it references you as the source of info. I’m just wondering why your saying it’s wrong? I know it’s been a long time since you wrote the book that it’s referencing and times have changed but man I said nothing to attack you. This is the kind of response that makes people not like you. you said you want a discussion. I ask a question and this is how you respond. Ok then.

 

[PetNcs]

I say again I will do it gladly
Itnis nit a task to be done in a minute
I do nit do my wotk for being liked
I do it for chameleons to live better lives in the captivity and in the wild
And K do it fir ma kind to start csrinv more fir the olanet

i am sorry if I am not likeable for you
Meet me in person you will change your
Mind

the poisoning atmosphere ceeated in this post by some isexactly what CF criticizes i. fB and otjer media...
liciily, this does not hapoen in the groups ai manage

get there and collect your lroof

you are clrdually welcome

 

[cyberlocc]

well if I am the source of your Caresheet why I get the impression that all what I do is shit?
i will gladly present my exoert opinion on the caresheets as I jave done several times in the Past conditioned I will be given credit for it and I will talm to responsible person and not to a crowd of people some of whomdare to choose language and tone that is inacceotable

@Syreptyon

This right here, is the point....

This is not how an Expert or a scientist behaves themselves.... This is not how you show your thoughts and reasoning.

This "I need no links, your wrong I'm right the end, I dont care what other peers disagree, they are wrong" is not how any scientist should be acting.

The Man called Madcham.de Crackpots.... To me in a post, thats not a data issue, its a Character flaw.


You could say, as he is "he is being attacked in this thread, what do you expect" however thats not the case. This is Mild compared to the way he speaks to people on Facebook, when not being "attacked".

Having some articles published or not, doesnt make you the final word in anything. You can link your articles, in dispute of others when it is brought up. You can state, well my opinion on this matter differs, and when approached by peer reviews, you can link your own. You cannot call others, especially others with degrees crackpots and call your self a final word, whether anyone likes it or not. Thats not acceptable character and that is behavior that Petr displays, Daily.

 

[Syreptyon]

You are mixing 2 separate issues here.

Disagreeing with some of the things he said, is not the stem of the comments as to his character.

I have disagreed with you, a few times, have I ever attacked your character?


The comments about his character, are stemmed from his character. The way he presents his thoughts, the way he puts down others thoughts, those are what has lead to those comments. The fact you think it is simply a language barrier, tells me, you do not have the pleasure of extensive conversation with him, in which you have brought up pause to some of his ideas. He is in this medium, presenting himself very well, and its nice to see so we can exchange ideas. However that is not the same behavior we have seen on other platforms as Snits has said.

I stated that I was being attacked for some of the things I said, or disagreeing with some of Petrs ideas, or rather questioning them. What I did not say, is that I have received 2x as many PMs, stating they have trouble with Petr over the same approach to discussion that I presented.

Again as said, I was not aware Petr was still active here, and my criticism I hope he did read and I hope he takes it to heart. As I am not alone, at all in my thoughts.




Do you have Links to these? I have asked this before, have yet to see one. Regardless, if you have been published or not, that does not stop fact checking and the requirement for you to back up what you say.

Its the "I am the source" attitude, that I cannot stand, and nor will I ever accept or condone, no one in any scientific profession EVER WOULD.

Regardless of your reasons for making character judgments, this is not an appropriate place for it. I have indeed spoken to Petr before, and I continue to disagree. Here's just a couple citations, a simple google search away:

https://www.researchgate.net/public..._montane_forest_of_Mount_Kulal_northern_Kenya

https://www.researchgate.net/public..._Range_northern_Kenya_Squamata_Chamaeleonidae

 

[PetNcs]

Sorry for all the misspells, I passwd theee eye surgeries and have still a way to go to restore my vision

 

[PetNcs]

Regardless of your reasons for making character judgments, this is not an appropriate place for it. I have indeed spoken to Petr before, and I continue to disagree. Here's just a couple citations, a simple google search away:

https://www.researchgate.net/public..._montane_forest_of_Mount_Kulal_northern_Kenya

https://www.researchgate.net/public..._Range_northern_Kenya_Squamata_Chamaeleonidae

Thank you for support, I value it highly

 

[cyberlocc]

Regardless of your reasons for making character judgments, this is not an appropriate place for it. I have indeed spoken to Petr before, and I continue to disagree. Here's just a couple citations, a simple google search away:

https://www.researchgate.net/public..._montane_forest_of_Mount_Kulal_northern_Kenya

https://www.researchgate.net/public..._Range_northern_Kenya_Squamata_Chamaeleonidae

Obviously not with the extent as others, or with a disagreement, as stated before.

Again, published a 100 articles, I really dont care. That does not mean that everything you say is gospel, and its the end all be all. A trait that he displays, and you are backing. That is not a trait I am going to ever recognize nor endorse. It has zero place in any scientific field.

There is scientists that I speak with Daily, on Facebook groups, that back up everything they say, when asked, with at least 2 articles. Sometimes some of those Articles are theirs, and someone elses sometimes its neither. They still link them, NO MATTER WHO ASKs.

But by all means, lets allow Petrs behavior, when he has 8 articles, when an example of Above Scientists, Fran Baines, has 100s, and degrees to back up everything she states, and still backs it up with links.

Also yes, they actually do allow anyone to post on Research Gate, just FYI.


Your entire statement of being talked about, and making himself known, goes right back to the point. Your turning data into popularity. Petr is known, he is popular, therefore everything he said needs no backing, the data stands on its own, because people know who he is, and he has done a few positive things in the past. That is the very same Cult mentality that I spoke about.

 

[JacksJill]

I hope you feel better soon. I admire your ability to write in multiple languages especially with and eye problem.
I asked about your credentials earlier only because to choose between differing care sheets I must weigh the strengths of the authors. The CF care sheets were written and proofed by Chris Anderson and a well respected veterinarian. They have not been updated recently and are most likely due. This is a valuable discussion. Hope you will feel as if you can contribute.
I would still need to know your credentials before I would count your opinions weightier than theirs. I count length of experience toward that weight as well. Not everything is learned the lab. Your field experience is very valuable.
However I can not accept because I said so as an argument when deciding between options. I hope you understand.

 

[snitz427]

It is so embarrassing the way some of you talk about Petr.

Even if you disagree with or question some of the things he says, that does NOT give you the green light to question his character (see words like "eccentric," "close-minded", etc.) and essentially subtweet about him, leaving it to him to find this discussion of him in the first place. You probably only comment on "eccentricity" because English isn't his first language - not a good look, so let's go ahead and strike that from future conversation.

As much as people here like to s*** on the facebook groups I guarantee you there are just as many, if not more, people on other platforms saying the exact same things about us. And this is exactly why.

Have any of you published any peer-reviewed research papers in any major scientific publication? Petr has at least 8 credits as author across multiple journals, spanning decades. They don't just let anyone do that. Obviously no one should be treated as the end-all-be-all, but for god's sake at least show a basic approximation of respect.

I did not mean eccentricity to be an insult, and I apologize @PetNcs if it was perceived as such. I’ve been called eccentric, myself, and never perceived it negatively. Eccentric means unconventional, which is exactly how I perceive some of your info. This thread topic itself is implying unconventional ideas. Unconventional is also not an insult. I absolutely DO feel you can be close minded, as anyone who does not concede is simply wrong.

I’m a novice keeper, with lots to learn. I read a lot and find other people’s experiences and guidance very helpful... but without elaborating on the source of their statements or scientific info I assume it is ALL opinions based on experience. Still valuable, but STILL OPINION. Info like Kinyonga shares offers scientific merit and I use that and others experiences to form my OWN opinions.

As I said before, Im not saying Mr Necas’ info is incorrect. What I am saying is that he presents it as fact without info to support his argument and so it is perceived as strong OPINION.

 

[Syreptyon]

Obviously not with the extent as others, or with a disagreement, as stated before.

Again, published a 100 articles, I really dont care. That does not mean that everything you say is gospel, and its the end all be all. A trait that he displays, and you are backing. That is not a trait I am going to ever recognize nor endorse. It has zero place in any scientific field.

There is scientists that I speak with Daily, on Facebook groups, that back up everything they say, when asked, with at least 2 articles. Sometimes some of those Articles are theirs, and someone elses sometimes its neither. They still link them, NO MATTER WHO ASKs.

But by all means, lets allow Petrs behavior, when he has 8 articles, when an example of Above Scientists, Fran Baines, has 100s, and degrees to back up everything she states, and still backs it up with links.

Also yes, they actually do allow anyone to post on Research Gate, just FYI.

Sure, I agree with you that no scientist should be taken as gospel! I have not said anything of the sort to indicate otherwise. All I was talking about was respect and pointing out that there are in fact credentials to be found. I'm a molecular biologist. I work in a lab daily. I interact with scientists (in real life) every day, face-to-face, near and far, famous and unknown. I work with publishers and am highly familiar with what goes into getting even a single paper published.

I suspect the scientist you have an online relationship with, who is happy to give you references, is someone you speak to and speak about very differently than the present situation. And boy isn't it amazing how people respond differently when treated with respect.

I even specified in my original post that "Obviously no one should be treated as the end-all-be-all," which was conveniently left out of your consideration.

 

[PetNcs]

I did not mean eccentricity to be an insult, and I apologize @PetNcs if it was perceived as such. I’ve been called eccentric, myself, and never perceived it negatively. Eccentric means unconventional, which is exactly how I perceive some of your info. This thread topic itself is implying unconventional ideas. Unconventional is also not an insult. I absolutely DO feel you can be close minded, as anyone who does not concede is simply wrong.

I’m a novice keeper, with lots to learn. I read a lot and find other people’s experiences and guidance very helpful... but without elaborating on the source of their statements or scientific info I assume it is ALL opinions based on experience. Still valuable, but STILL OPINION. Info like Kinyonga shares offers scientific merit and I use that and others experiences to form my OWN opinions.

As I said before, Im not saying Mr Necas’ info is incorrect. What I am saying is that he presents it as fact without info to support his argument and so it is perceived as strong OPINION.

Fair comment, taken and accepted
I do not justify with science in firums and fb, I do in my publixations
It might be stratne but almost all the big criticisers do nit base their demeaning and oersonal comments also on any info sources, so why should I?

 

[cyberlocc]

Sure, I agree with you that no scientist should be taken as gospel! I have not said anything of the sort to indicate otherwise. All I was talking about was respect and pointing out that there are in fact credentials to be found. I'm a molecular biologist. I work in a lab daily. I interact with scientists (in real life) every day, face-to-face, near and far, famous and unknown. I work with publishers and am highly familiar with what goes into getting even a single paper published.

I suspect the scientist you have an online relationship with, who is happy to give you references, is someone you speak to and speak about very differently than the present situation. And boy isn't it amazing how people respond differently when treated with respect.

I even specified in my original post that "Obviously no one should be treated as the end-all-be-all," which was conveniently left out of your consideration.

I did not mean to me, solely or at all.

She presents data, and links, whenever stating anything to anyone. As do the other scientists in that same group. It was just one example, that I have had frequent dealings with, in the last few days/weeks. As I am retired, from my science based field.


With to the issue of respect. I agree with you, 100%. However you have to give respect to get it right? Thats the simple point here, Petr is only receiving what he puts out. This again tells me, that your experience with Petr on the Facebook groups, is not that extensive. His character was brought in, and commented on, as he disrespects every single person who dares disagree with any thing he says. I have had extensive interaction with Petr, where I was polite, and every response he had was violent, brash, and included tons of obscenity's. Those were not even in public atmosphere, those were in private conversation.

I have brushed my experience off, it was very very long ago, and wrote it off, as it was just a difference in personality. I know I can be pretty brash at times as well, its something I am working on. So I chucked it up to it was a conflict of personality.

However fast forward, and I see these same issues, crop up with tons of other folks, that have interactions with Petr. Even people who uphold the upmost respect in the conversation, and only ask, "how did you come to this conclusion, here is this data that thinks different" and are full out attacked...

Again, this is a great example, of what I am talking about.

So you want to disrespect and Demean, every single one of your peers, and then expect to be respected? Ya thats not going to happen.

Fair comment, taken and accepted
I do not justify with science in firums and fb, I do in my publixations
It might be stratne but almost all the big criticisers do nit base their demeaning and oersonal comments also on any info sources, so why should I?

I'm sorry but this is not true at all.

All of my interactions with you, have resulted in you being rude, and refusing to provide any data, and everyone here knows me, and knows I rarely state anything without at least a single link to back up what I say and why I say it.

No where on your website, is their any links to peer articles, or data whatsoever. When I have provided you links to peers that have contrasted with statements you have made, you have called them crackpots. Thats simply not how a scientist or a professional of any kind should be behaving.

 

[snitz427]

Fair comment, taken and accepted
I do not justify with science in firums and fb, I do in my publixations
It might be stratne but almost all the big criticisers do nit base their demeaning and oersonal comments also on any info sources, so why should I?

Because your reputation and reach (popularity) grants you more peer power. You have the power and the audience to have a major impact on chameleon keepers worldwide. Sharing further information only helps and strengthens your argument, and also helps the novice keeper like me who is trying to understand it.

Again, I apologize if my comment felt demeaning. “Unconventional” and “revolutionary” are similar words. Would you have been offended if I called you revolutionary? How you state and prove your points can be the difference between the two.

 

[PetNcs]

Because your reputation and reach (popularity) grants you more peer power. You have the power and the audience to have a major impact on chameleon keepers worldwide. Sharing further information only helps and strengthens your argument, and also helps the novice keeper like me who is trying to understand it.

Again, I apologize if my comment felt demeaning. “Unconventional” and “revolutionary” are similar words. Would you have been offended if I called you revolutionary? How you state and prove your points can be the difference between the two.

Unconventional and revolutionary feels like praise, no offense taken
I will consider more sources
And wotjing on publications of my decades of field and caltive onservations,
To which I can refer then

 

[snitz427]

I’d

Unconventional and revolutionary feels like praise, no offense taken
I will consider more sources
And wotjing on publications of my decades of field and caltive onservations,
To which I can refer then

That would be very helpful, I look forward to reading more.