Are our Caresheets Wrong??

PetNcs

Avid Member
I did not mean to me, solely or at all.

She presents data, and links, whenever stating anything to anyone. As do the other scientists in that same group. It was just one example, that I have had frequent dealings with, in the last few days/weeks. As I am retired, from my science based field.


With to the issue of respect. I agree with you, 100%. However you have to give respect to get it right? Thats the simple point here, Petr is only receiving what he puts out. This again tells me, that your experience with Petr on the Facebook groups, is not that extensive. His character was brought in, and commented on, as he disrespects every single person who dares disagree with any thing he says. I have had extensive interaction with Petr, where I was polite, and every response he had was violent, brash, and included tons of obscenity's. Those were not even in public atmosphere, those were in private conversation.

I have brushed my experience off, it was very very long ago, and wrote it off, as it was just a difference in personality. I know I can be pretty brash at times as well, its something I am working on. So I chucked it up to it was a conflict of personality.

However fast forward, and I see these same issues, crop up with tons of other folks, that have interactions with Petr. Even people who uphold the upmost respect in the conversation, and only ask, "how did you come to this conclusion, here is this data that thinks different" and are full out attacked...

Again, this is a great example, of what I am talking about.
View attachment 258364



So you want to disrespect and Demean, every single one of your peers, and then expect to be respected? Ya thats not going to happen.





I'm sorry but this is not true at all.

All of my interactions with you, have resulted in you being rude, and refusing to provide any data, and everyone here knows me, and knows I rarely state anything without at least a single link to back up what I say and why I say it.

No where on your website, is their any links to peer articles, or data whatsoever. When I have provided you links to peers that have contrasted with statements you have made, you have called them crackpots. Thats simply not how a scientist or a professional of any kind should be behaving.
you continue to bash me and be personal though I do not know who you are
i have no clue who is hidden behind the avatar and what have you done.
i never use words that you try to glue to me and your hate is so evident and misinterpretation is so rude that I have no base for talking to you
you all the time attack he more rudely that I have ever done
so first clean in front of your door and then teach me please
 

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
you continue to bash me and be personal though I do not know who you are
i have no clue who is hidden behind the avatar and what have you done.
i never use words that you try to glue to me and your hate is so evident and misinterpretation is so rude that I have no base for talking to you
you all the time attack he more rudely that I have ever done
so first clean in front of your door and then teach me please
To put it simply, as Nightanole already did.

"Experts post caresheets based on good research
Says care sheets are a great starting point for noobies
It seems there is an issue with noobies attack any other care sheets that do not match perfectly with the care sheet they feel is gospel
The only other issue is if experts start saying other experts care sheets are wrong"

CF is having problems with Underline, alot lately.
The way you word things, comes off as Bold, and despite requests for your good research you do not provide it.

(with the exception I would reword Underline to. "It seems there is an issue with Noobies attack anyone who deviates a match perfectly with the care sheet they feel is gospel". They do not just bash, the noobies with a different care sheet, they bash any and everyone who deviates from their care gospel.)

I have responded to your DM. I am not going to continue to argue about this in public further, I am not trying to bash you, all I am trying to do, is discuss the current state of CFs care sheets, and if they need updated, and what the community's thoughts are on yours.



You are here, you have stated there is issues with CFs care sheets, that you do not agree with. So you are more than welcome and encouraged to give your thoughts on CFs.

I would love to hear:

What your issues are, the exact places, I know you cited the temperatures.
Can you go in more depth as to why you do not like those temperatures?
Your findings with using your temperatures?
Has anyone else done testing with the same temperatures?
Their results?
Is there any articles in reference to using said temperatures that we can read?

Is there any other issues that you have with the CF caresheets?
 
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PetNcs

Avid Member
Hey now, your groups aren't all sunshine and lollypops Pete, you were spitting some poison last week too. Didn't you just call me a thief last week for posting something you wrote on here? How did that work out for you?
Fair point, we clarified and you know yoh made a mistake that coased that rhat yij rectified only later on, but not on the original thread. I hioed we clarified and ageed that we are both OK if rhis is nit the xase, drop me a PM, we will solve it respectfully and smoothly
 

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
Fair point, we clarified and you know yoh made a mistake that coased that rhat yij rectified only later on, but not on the original thread. I hioed we clarified and ageed that we are both OK if rhis is nit the xase, drop me a PM, we will solve it respectfully and smoothly
He cited you as the source. No mistake was made...

You published a public article. He reposted it, and cited you for credit. He did nothing wrong.
 

PetNcs

Avid Member
He cited you as the source. No mistake was made...

You published a public article. He reposted it, and cited you for credit. He did nothing wrong.
Je did not whe. Posting he did only later when someone pointed out it is. Ot his textZ that was the issue
But as said, we clarified that
 

PetNcs

Avid Member
To put it simply, as Nightanole already did.

"Experts post caresheets based on good research
Says care sheets are a great starting point for noobies
It seems there is an issue with noobies attack any other care sheets that do not match perfectly with the care sheet they feel is gospel
The only other issue is if experts start saying other experts care sheets are wrong"

CF is having problems with Underline, alot lately.
The way you word things, comes off as Bold, and despite requests for your good research you do not provide it.

(with the exception I would reword Underline to. "It seems there is an issue with Noobies attack anyone who deviates a match perfectly with the care sheet they feel is gospel". They do not just bash, the noobies with a different care sheet, they bash any and everyone who deviates from their care gospel.)

I have responded to your DM. I am not going to continue to argue about this in public further, I am not trying to bash you, all I am trying to do, is discuss the current state of CFs care sheets, and if they need updated, and what the community's thoughts are on yours.



You are here, you have stated there is issues with CFs care sheets, that you do not agree with. So you are more than welcome and encouraged to give your thoughts on CFs.

I would love to hear:

What your issues are, the exact places, I know you cited the temperatures.
Can you go in more depth as to why you do not like those temperatures?
Your findings with using your temperatures?
Has anyone else done testing with the same temperatures?
Their results?
Is there any articles in reference to using said temperatures that we can read?

Is there any other issues that you have with the CF caresheets?
This is not a work for 5 minutes
When I have time, I will consider doing it
There is however no single reference in your sheets Either
 

PetNcs

Avid Member
5-7 averages, is from our Sheets, the theory is, these care sheets will make 8-10 years the average for panthers. I say theory as these sheets are very very new, less than a year old.

Oh and,

"Your Chameleon is Fat" - Petr Nectas



There is also a Easter Egg, of an issue here, that no one seems to have caught (or mentioned) yet.

Everyone of those care sheets, is different than the other, Whether it be humidity or temperatures, those care sheets are not even stating the same information, and they come from the same site, and are obviously made by the same person. So this well tested, data on how to care for chameleons changes with the wind :p.

Veiled:

Basking Spot: "26-28c (82.4f)" - Profile, "27-30c (86f)" - Care Sheet

Temperature At Night: "Max 21-23c (73.4)" - Profile, "Max 20-22c (71.6f)"

Day Humidity: "Under 40%" - Profile, "Under 50%" - Care Sheet.


Panther:

Temperature At Daytime: "23-26c (78.8f)" - Profile, "Max 21-23c (73.4f)"

Temperature At Night: "Max 21-23c (73.4)" - Profile, "Max 20-22c (71.6f)"


Jacksons:

Day Humidity: "Under 60%" - Profile, "50% - 70%" - Care Sheet.

@Brodybreaux25 thoughts?
Yes there are differences as the profile is general info and the care sheet is made safer for newbies. a difference of 1 dare is issue of recalculating C to F and is not substantial IMHO the general pattern stays same and frankly, even humidities awn be hardly set and adjusted with more precision than 10%, so that for the orientation, it is enough
 

PetNcs

Avid Member
We differentiate gender, to defy nature.

A Female Panther Chameleon in the wild, will have clutches of 70-90 eggs, so will yours if you give her the same temps and amount of food as a male. Thats fine, if you want 70-90 malnourished baby's and a dead mama, because laying a clutch that size alot of the time means death. If she survives the first time, of a 90 clutch, she likely wont survive the next that is going to come in 2-3 months.

We reduce food, and reduce Heat (Thereby, reducing the processing of food, which reduces metabolism and food intake naturally) to reduce clutch size and frequency to extend life.

However, there is a flip side to your statement. Madagascar hits upper 90s, every day where Panther Hail, Yemen is well over 110. So if we are going to use nature as the argument, then why are we suggesting low 80s for an animal that exposed to 110 every single day? Going against nature, is what these care sheets are suggesting, they are further from nature, by a lot more, than ours are.


"Who are we to judge whats right or wrong" - We are the people that began taking chameleons as Pets, 40 years ago. When we did this, we got them to live a few months, a Year you were doing great, 2 years your breaking ground. Fast forward 40 years, and we have by trial and error, and dead chams galore, extended that 1-2year wild lifespan, and 1year at best in captivity, and extended it to where Chams now live 5-7 years for panthers on average. We have more than doubled their wild lifespan, and even more increased their captive one.
i do not understand the comment about 70-90 eggs, panthers do not reach these numbers, i miss ther point of that paragraph fully.

the info on temperatures as stated here is imprecise and misleading:

Madagascar gets well warm, true. NOW. just 100 years ago, before heavy deforestation and before the effects of global warming, the temps were significantly lower obviously and the biotopes were, due to cover with tropical rainforest completely different. the chameleons can survive the change however, they do not do well. I collected data on that and will be subject of publication soon. the temps seem to exceed the former ones by 7-10 degrees roughly.
pluis, Panthers live not only in coastal N areas but also around Tamatave, 1000km to the south plus inland at Andasibe (where I in person recorded frost) they live to uni-to 1000m (I found them at exact 1000m all just 3 months ago. The climate is completely different, much much colder.
the rule of thumb in chameleons is: to go safe, go lower, they obviously tolerate much better lower temperatures than heat, which is often lethal for them.

Yemen: the temperatures of the area, where the breeding stock for almost all captive Yemen chameleons was collected NEVER reaches 110, the climate is varying between maxima 23 and 30 at sunshine maxima at daytime and 8-15 at night, charts attached. There is NO reason to ovedrheat them. Regardless whether they can survive high temps in captivity or not, they are with their natural temperature requirements much closer to mopntanes than almost anyone actually thinks. Ibb lays around the lower altitudinal margin of them, they have been =recorded up to 2500m asl., it means 1km higher, with temps about 10 degrees lower. Same surprise is for the fog, which is e.g. in May so dense that a night search for them is from around 11PM impossible, as you see nothing: you are like in a milk with your torch and see 2-3m far only. It dissolves next morning as it raises higher in form of clouds, in some places at 10-11AM only...

Too high temps lead to speeding up metabolism, shorten the life span and cause higher appetite and more eggs and infertile clutches as result (i.a.)...

All my own unpublished or partly published observations.
 

Attachments

PetNcs

Avid Member
You asked me to give reasons why I say that the care sheet of CF is not ideal IMHO, I will give you therefore a sample opinion on just few sentences at the beginning of the one. Some will be facts, some my humble opinions. I will go into detaiul a propose changes when appropriate… the text is IMHO IMHO IMHO problemagic as containing many inacurracies and redundant misleading formulations that do not serve the purpose of a care sheet. But some of my HO might be a mater of taste or individual preference or style.

I juse as a reference for terms definition easily accessible resources ans scholarly articles are not necessary in most of the cases

I will gladly discuss any topic with anyone, who will refrain from personal attacks and analysis of my behavior and communication skills


Scientific Name:
Chamaeleo calyptratus
PN: A scientific name is usually written in itallic, though it is not a miktake to write normally, but I would change it.

Common Names: Veiled Chameleon, Yemen Chameleon
PN: Though the US market widely uses the first name, it is IMHO very unlucky and misleading (same as C. gracilis is not a graceful chameleon but “slender” one, the first originating from wrong translation of the latin name). My explanation is here.
https://chameleons.info/_files/200000048-d0cddd0ce0/YEMEN CHAMELEON_name.pdf
Difficulty: Novice - Chameleons in general are not beginner animals but those designated novice are considered the best beginner species in the hobby with large, stable captive populations relative to other species. They are relatively easy to breed as well.

Brief Introduction:
The veiled chameleon is a very common species in the pet trade with widely spread captive populations.
PN: IMHO redundant info, not a mistake but I generally do not like definig the intro to a species through pet trade.

Native to the south Arabian peninsula (Yemen and Saudi Arabia) it is sometimes referred to as the Yemen Chameleon.
PN: redundant info, you repeat what was already said just few lines above

A common myth is that this species does not need much water or humidity as it is from a desert region, but this is not true; this species inhabits the greenest area of the peninsula where the climate is subtropical to tropical. There are several feral colonies of this species in areas of Florida and California.
PN: 1. A care sheet should rather IMHO present what is correct than what is believed and wrong, it is redundant
2. these entities are not “colonies” but “populations”, in biology, a “colony” has a specific meaning, having nothing to do with chameleon distribution pattern and population biology
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colony_(biology)
3. it is much better to say that they are introduced than feral IMHO, though it is not a mistake.
4. They were introduced also to Maui, but reported to have been iradicated already but are we sure? https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https://mauiinvasive.org/wp-content/uploads/final-report-on-veiled-chameleon-for-hisc-research-and-technology-grant.pdf?fbclid=IwAR022bgNi5hisdHPa3dk2uczWLqc1b2w4pqlVVdiNquwApmw9w6qpijK3x8&h=AT2flY7ck-oxvXezwr7_3GluCf9ZOAN5_CLWpbbiMCBg6V1c3IvtNRcF9gOvYD8cIBmt3ObXM6FqlAWcU00311ZjhRIFZsIneQGvdl35bG473_aaOBzYNw29PDW7ueAnoGOin6xUwjIdJZceZVSnPW4BP3Qnl-IPQsuPeOju3IDr-UQucokmlwek2tHaonXACroilkvG2yIPStN4-Fn8-AnKfnA9NrsjHxwBYb6i3fW2yIlJvSbq2Qvt_C7FPr4Efoxnu_c30Pqil8cEfbIFZq-c3Jn5j_-fCHrvEeNuB1uiPbjfdLaXlj-1Hx5H0p3HWZ0FFUTMw0SSJTdKT5M611ii6EyI7scTbfeikg08cotyzwQLM_qL5_Apul1R9DOdRGFqYYe4QQSPXbO452WXZcxr24hO9ELtwdiyx8B8grxibhwMEv_hryfKZI5b-6unZkeLdtSr2P8Hcm9x6OG56UiMY7qaxFejJwqkcWRvR5uT0_9n8uYoeyFQBOv5Ante-gpghsSwuAEUXhhfUEa5O3SXviPIy7b73FEadOego7B0vH2Dd18brur5O5YO9S7-7QM0djw991i_RtYhOzqeYvs3t_4q2lRrozZBFb0u-NcEddC9TNxbzA-_bJMSHyz-z0FOvQ
Description:
The veiled chameleon is a large species with an average adult length of 18”-24” (45-70cm). They are well known for their prominent casque (crest on top of the head),
PN: A “casque” is NOT a “crest”. A “casque” is in chameleonology the part of thr head situated behind the orbits, a “crest” is a prominent bone-based formation in the form of a ridge/crest, usually ornamented by enlarged scales. This note is objectively wrong. See Necas 1999

which is believed by some to help channel rainwater toward their mouth for drinking.
PN: It is a pure specullation, never seriously published and obviously wrong, here it remains absolutely redundant, it has no added value for a Care Sheet, on contrary it is misleading and funny IMHO

The species is predominantly green, ranging from a bright yellow-green to a drab olive.
PN: This is a very relative and disputable description of colors and pattern, I would even consider it as wrong, at least for the males.

Males have a much larger casque and a distinct pattern of brown and yellow barring.
PN: there is no BROWN and yellow barring… the description is wrong
If thios is an attempt to describe some sexual dimorphism, then it is insufficient an weak (as the obvious spur is missing), if describing dichromatism, simpoly wrong and incomplete, there fore redundant IMHO

Females and juveniles are primarily solid green with some yellow spots and stripes.
PN: true for females, not true for juveniles, therefore wrong as such and misleading. No yellow spots and stripes in juveniles are present and if, then as an extreme exception of the rule

While uncommon, there are several veiled chameleon morphs that include hypermelanisitc and hypomelanistic (translucent) mutations.
PN: 1. You mean for sure HYPERMELANISTIC, not hypermelanisitc
2. As a morph, hypermelanistic animals are hardly to be assigned IMHO, as to my knowledge they appeared only in very few single idividuals globally so far, moreover the hypermelanism was presented not as generally accentuated congenial hyperproduction of melanine in the whole skin, but as a completely black coloration (called “melanism” - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanism) of parts of the skin, therefore the term “partial melanism” applies here.
3. The “traslucents”, as they are called in the US predomionantly, are not in strict sense hypomelanistic
https://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Hypomelanism
as they do not have reduced presence of melanine in the eyes, skin and dermal derivates spread homogeneously but stil retaining some. When the melanine is completely absent, this condition is generally called albinism https://www.thefreedictionary.com/Hypomelanistic and the fact it is not on the whole body but on certain sharply defined areas makes the so called “partial albinism”.
Therefore, the definitions are objectiverly wrong.

Behavior:
Like most chameleon species veiled chameleons are tree-dwelling reptiles that are active only during the day. They can generally be found hunting prey or basking on the branches of trees and large bushes. Veiled chameleons are very territorial and don’t tolerate the presence of other chameleons in close proximity.
PN: it is true only partly, if going into more detail, juveniles and females are behaving differently and the term “close proximity” is vague, as it is neither defined in absolute (in cm e.g.) nor in relative (in relation to total length e.g.) terms.
https://www.chameleons.info/l/proximity-in-chameleons-and-its-implication-to-captivity-based-on-wild-and-captive-observations/

When threatened they will frequently change color
PN: the will NOT do it frequently, they do it once, not back and forth as a rule. Anyway, the definition is vague.

and inflate their body to appear larger.
PN: Is throat (gular sac) part of the “body” or part of the “head”? If the latter, then the dfinition is not true, which is my HO.

Some also display the unique ability to vibrate or buzz when frightened, which is an attempt to intimidate other chameleons, predators, or even an insect bothering them.
PN: the formulation is IMHO very unlucky. Because at least in the case of the predators it is not any intimidation but defense and in the other two same. Intimidation https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/intimidate
Is generally understaood as a proactive process while the nature of the buzzing is predominanlty reactive IMHO.

Contrary to popular belief, chameleons don’t change color in a direct attempt to match their background. Their color changes are influenced most by their state of health, emotions or level of stress, and the process of thermoregulation.
PN: The color change of chameleons primarily serves their intraspecific communication, then species recognition and then to the named mechanisms. As such it is IMHO incomplete, missing the major functions and therefore incorrect.
https://www.chameleons.info/l/color-change-myth-unleashed/

Pet chameleons are better for observation and should not be handled regularly. Some veileds tolerate occasional handling and even hand-feeding, while many don’t and can be quite aggressive towards people.
PN: What value adds this statement to a care sheet is dubious IMHO.
 

Brodybreaux25

Chameleon Enthusiast
Je did not whe. Posting he did only later when someone pointed out it is. Ot his textZ that was the issue
But as said, we clarified that
He's not wrong. I've posted about 40 of his writings here, 39 of them open with "Credit: Petr Necas."

I did forget to put it at the top of one out of the forty. Half way through that thread someone(don't recall who) corrected me and I acknowledged the mistake. I believe it was the Hemipenal vs sperm plug thread. Im over it lets move on.




I'm surprised, and glad, to see that Petyr is back this morning with annotations. He certainly did not have to do that. Lets keep this civil for everyone's benefit. Leave all the BS personality crap home. Please. @cyberlocc @PetNcs
 

Kaizen

Chameleon Enthusiast
He's not wrong. I've posted about 40 of his writings here, 39 of them open with "Credit: Petr Necas."

I did forget to put it at the top of one out of the forty. Half way through that thread someone(don't recall who) corrected me and I acknowledged the mistake. I believe it was the Hemipenal vs sperm plug thread. Im over it lets move on.




I'm surprised, and glad, to see that Petyr is back this morning with annotations. He certainly did not have to do that. Lets keep this civil for everyone's benefit. Leave all the BS personality crap home. Please. @cyberlocc @PetNcs
You’re a gentleman and a scholar @Brodybreaux25.
 

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
i do not understand the comment about 70-90 eggs, panthers do not reach these numbers, i miss ther point of that paragraph fully.

the info on temperatures as stated here is imprecise and misleading:

Madagascar gets well warm, true. NOW. just 100 years ago, before heavy deforestation and before the effects of global warming, the temps were significantly lower obviously and the biotopes were, due to cover with tropical rainforest completely different. the chameleons can survive the change however, they do not do well. I collected data on that and will be subject of publication soon. the temps seem to exceed the former ones by 7-10 degrees roughly.
pluis, Panthers live not only in coastal N areas but also around Tamatave, 1000km to the south plus inland at Andasibe (where I in person recorded frost) they live to uni-to 1000m (I found them at exact 1000m all just 3 months ago. The climate is completely different, much much colder.
the rule of thumb in chameleons is: to go safe, go lower, they obviously tolerate much better lower temperatures than heat, which is often lethal for them.

Yemen: the temperatures of the area, where the breeding stock for almost all captive Yemen chameleons was collected NEVER reaches 110, the climate is varying between maxima 23 and 30 at sunshine maxima at daytime and 8-15 at night, charts attached. There is NO reason to ovedrheat them. Regardless whether they can survive high temps in captivity or not, they are with their natural temperature requirements much closer to mopntanes than almost anyone actually thinks. Ibb lays around the lower altitudinal margin of them, they have been =recorded up to 2500m asl., it means 1km higher, with temps about 10 degrees lower. Same surprise is for the fog, which is e.g. in May so dense that a night search for them is from around 11PM impossible, as you see nothing: you are like in a milk with your torch and see 2-3m far only. It dissolves next morning as it raises higher in form of clouds, in some places at 10-11AM only...

Too high temps lead to speeding up metabolism, shorten the life span and cause higher appetite and more eggs and infertile clutches as result (i.a.)...

All my own unpublished or partly published observations.
The eggs thing, was a rough exggaretation, and was mixed up with Veilieds. You are correct though, I think Panthers most I have seen was 60, the point still stands. You made that same point, at the end of your quote.


As to Panthers and "Rainforest" areas. 110% agree with that statement. I just brought this up in the Parsonii vs Panther question.

Tamatave, Manarana (Manarana Nord), and Cap Est (Masoala), all inhabit in my research, as you said more "Montane" like environments. Cooler rainforests, with more dense foliage, rather than coastal areas with low Bush and hot tempatures.

I agree as well they seem to be more adaptable than we give them credit for. In that other thread they said they think it was James who said
"I setup my cages for Parsons, and the Panthers just deal with it".

Which me and James, have talked about that before. Quite a bit. Those "Locales" if not a separate species, seem to show, that Panthers are pretty adaptable.

Last you and I spoke about this, back when I was researching it heavily, you stated that those Panthers were introduced however. Is that still your belief? Is it simply an aspect of adaptability then? Do you feel we can or should consider Panthers a Montane? Or a Psudeo Montane? Given those ideas?

Thanks for taking the time to respond, with your ideas and reasonings.
 

PetNcs

Avid Member
The eggs thing, was a rough exggaretation, and was mixed up with Veilieds. You are correct though, I think Panthers most I have seen was 60, the point still stands. You made that same point, at the end of your quote.


As to Panthers and "Rainforest" areas. 110% agree with that statement. I just brought this up in the Parsonii vs Panther question.

Tamatave, Manarana (Manarana Nord), and Cap Est (Masoala), all inhabit in my research, as you said more "Montane" like environments. Cooler rainforests, with more dense foliage, rather than coastal areas with low Bush and hot tempatures.

I agree as well they seem to be more adaptable than we give them credit for. In that other thread they said they think it was James who said
"I setup my cages for Parsons, and the Panthers just deal with it".

Which me and James, have talked about that before. Quite a bit. Those "Locales" if not a separate species, seem to show, that Panthers are pretty adaptable.

Last you and I spoke about this, back when I was researching it heavily, you stated that those Panthers were introduced however. Is that still your belief? Is it simply an aspect of adaptability then? Do you feel we can or should consider Panthers a Montane? Or a Psudeo Montane? Given those ideas?

Thanks for taking the time to respond, with your ideas and reasonings.
my imoression is panthers are less adaotable than we think actually, I cillectwd sime allarming evidence in November 2019 and I insist they di NOT well in tjeirnsecondsry biotooes, at least in most of them, the most radically modified.

remind meon which population of panthers we talked about inteoduction.
itnis possible in amauritius and Reunion and of course all America but in Madagascsr, the onle suspition I have is Andasibe but I have not enough data to say anything more rhan a specullation.
 

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
my imoression is panthers are less adaotable than we think actually, I cillectwd sime allarming evidence in November 2019 and I insist they di NOT well in tjeirnsecondsry biotooes, at least in most of them, the most radically modified.

remind meon which population of panthers we talked about inteoduction.
itnis possible in amauritius and Reunion and of course all America but in Madagascsr, the onle suspition I have is Andasibe but I have not enough data to say anything more rhan a specullation.
We did speak about Cap Est, Manarana, and I think the Andasibe ones, so it could have been just the Andasibe ones, you had said. It was a long time ago. If your thought was the Andasibe introduction, that was probably it.

So the thought is, that Masosola and Manarana Humid forests are the primary biotopes? The more northern coastal regions are secondary? Is that why Bill, and your own (though I dont know your old humidity, numbers) have adapted to 50-70%? I feel like I remember seeing under 50% for panthers for the longest time (I think CF care sheets still read that?), and due to the species above, I always questioned if that was appropriate, which was what they want, and which could they just stand.



Also as I know there was earlier confusion, and such surrounding the 1 cricket a day thing you just brought up. I feel a lot of that may have to do with drastic size difference in crickets both species based, and age. Is there a weight that could be applied to this? The weight of what you are calling a single cricket? So that other feeders can be adapted. As Nightanole brought up, it takes 2-3 crickets to match a single Dubia, at least the crickets we have in the US, I dont know the size of your crickets over there however.

Is your 1 cricket per day, mean exact frequency? As in, do we feed 1 single cricket per day, everyday, or feed 2-3 crickets every other day? Does that play in part in your experience any changes seen?

Since were on the subject, though slightly OT for the thread, what about feeding of beetles. You had the video, that we found your pollinator beetle species, and while we cant get those in the US, there is pollinators about the same size, and are a similar insect. Should that be the feeding regime we should be looking to? Have you attempted feeding beetles of this type? Any concerns of Impaction from the beetles hard shell? Would be using beetles like those, along with soft bodied feeders, (bees if you could, maybe Black Soldier Flys if not). As a more staple diet, with Roaches and Crickets being treats? If that were to take place, the beetles weigh alot more than a cricket. So would be a beetle every other day, or 2x a week with BSFs a few a day for the rest of the week?
 

PetNcs

Avid Member
We did speak about Cap Est, Manarana, and I think the Andasibe ones, so it could have been just the Andasibe ones, you had said. It was a long time ago. If your thought was the Andasibe introduction, that was probably it.

YES THIS IS THE ONLY OPTION

So the thought is, that Masosola and Manarana Humid forests are the primary biotopes?

MORE OR LESS YES

The more northern coastal regions are secondary?

MOST OF THEM, NOT ALL, THERE ARE
SOME ENCLAVES OF DEGRADED ORIMARY OR OF NEAR ORIGINAL RESTORED SECONDARY

Is that why Bill, and your own (though I dont know your old humidity, numbers) have adapted to 50-70%?

YES

I feel like I remember seeing under 50% for panthers for the longest time (I think CF care sheets still read that?), and due to the species above, I always questioned if that was appropriate, which was what they want, and which could they just stand.

LOOK, IMHO THE DAYTIME HUMIDITY IS NOT RITICSL AND WHETHER IT IS ANYWHERE IN THE SPAN OF 40-70, IT IS OK
THE HUMIDITY IS IN THE WILD MORE OR LESS A FUNCTION OF TEMPERATURE. IT MEANS THE WARMER THE DRIER AND THE COLDER THE MOISTER.
NOW THERE IS AN ISSUE TO WHAT COMMUNITY YOU TALK, WHETHER TO ADVANCED OPEN MINDED EXPERIENCED PEOPLE: THEN THIS IS THE DEBATE
IF SPEAKING TO OPINIONSTED NARROW MINDED IDIOT LIKE ME, IT IS USELESS ANYWAY, SAVE YOUR TIME
AND IF SPEAKING TO NEWBIE, IMHO YOU NEED TO GO SAFE AND GIVE INSTRUCTION THAT WILL MOST LIKELY WORK AND HARM LESS WHATEVER THE SURROUNDING CONDITIONS ARE. THEN I TEND TO SAY (SIMPLIFIED):
1 DO NOT CARE FOR HUMIDITY AT DAYTIME, DRY IS GOOD
2 CARE FOR EVENING AND MORNING DEW
3 IF YOU GO FOR FOGGER, CARE FOR LOW TEMPERATURE AND GOOD AIRFLOW, GIVE FOG FIR SEVERAL HOURS AT NIGHT ONLY

Also as I know there was earlier confusion, and such surrounding the 1 cricket a day thing you just brought up. I feel a lot of that may have to do with drastic size difference in crickets both species based, and age. Is there a weight that could be applied to this? The weight of what you are calling a single cricket? So that other feeders can be adapted. As Nightanole brought up, it takes 2-3 crickets to match a single Dubia, at least the crickets we have in the US, I dont know the size of your crickets over there however.

I MEAN A BIG SIZE CRICKET, ADULT like eg Mediterranean field cricket(Gryllus bimaculatus)

AND IT IS A RECOMMENDATION OF THE APPROXIMATE VOLUME
ON AVERAGE
IF FEEDERS ARE SMALL, FEED MORE IN NUMBERS, SAME IN VOLUME.

Is your 1 cricket per day, mean exact frequency? As in, do we feed 1 single cricket per day, everyday, or feed 2-3 crickets every other day? Does that play in part in your experience any changes seen?

1. IN THE WILD THE MOST CHAMELEONS FEED ON TINY LITTLE INSECTS MANY TIMES A DAY, BUT THE FOOD INTAKE US VERY ERRATIC AND IRREGULAR
2. IN CAPTIVITY WE TEND TI HAVE BIG FEEDERS THAT CHAMELEONS ARE CAPABLEMTO EAT BUT THEY ARE NOT NATURAL ONES

MY WXOERIENCE IS RHAT THERE IS. IRTUAĽY NO DIFFERENCE IN THE QUALITY OF THE DIGESTION WHETHER YOU FEED DAILY OR WEEKLY AND ANYTHING INBETWEEN. THE DIFFERENCE IS IN THE APETITE AND WILL TO EAT WHICH IS STRONGER IF THE FOOD IS NOT GIVEN DAILY.

IF FEEDING WITH BIG ITEMS, I TEND TO RECOMMEND NOT FEEDING DAILY, IF WIMALL ITEMS, NI LIMIT.

Since were on the subject, though slightly OT for the thread, what about feeding of beetles.

CHAMELEONS TEND NOT TO LIKE BEETLES ESPECIALLY OF BLACK AND/OR RED COLOR AND OF BIG SIZE (over 2cm approax)
A GENERAL TENDENCY.
EXCEPTION ARE THERE: NAMAQUENSIS E.G.

SMALL POLLINATIR BEERLES, SUCH AS OACHNODA SP. OR JUNE BUGS ARE READILY EATEN AND I FIND RHEM IN FAECES OF WILD ONES.

You had the video, that we found your pollinator beetle species, and while we cant get those in the US, there is pollinators about the same size, and are a similar insect. Should that be the feeding regime we should be looking to?

YES INDEED
THEY ARE THE NATURAL DIET
THEY ARE EASY TO RAISE
THEY ARE EASY TO GUTLOAD WITH NATURAL GUTLOAD SUCH AS NECTAR AND POLLEN

Have you attempted feeding beetles of this type?

YES, GREAT EXPERIENCE

Any concerns of Impaction from the beetles hard shell?

NO IMPACTION NOTICED
THE HARD CHITINOUS BODY PARTS FOSTER FORMING AND MOVING THE PREY THROUGH DIGESTIVE TRACT. A GENERAL TENDENCY IN WILD EILEDS WAS: THE MORE BEETLES THE LESS. LEAVES.
THE RISK IS GINGIVAˇ INJURIES: DO NOT FEED TOO MANY
AND ALWAYS FEED THEM AFTER A HUNGER PAUSE WHEN THEY ARE RECOVERED, STRONG and hungry, then their bite is strongesT. DO NOT FEED TOO MANY AT A TIME, THEY CAN START BEING TIRED AND STOP CHEWING FORCEFULY

Would be using beetles like those, along with soft bodied feeders, (bees if you could, maybe Black Soldier Flys if not). As a more staple diet, with Roaches and Crickets being treats?

I WOULD VOTE FOR THAT DEFINITELY, AS IT IS MUCH CLOSER TO WILD DIET

If that were to take place, the beetles weigh alot more than a cricket. So would be a beetle every other day, or 2x a week with BSFs a few a day for the rest of the week?

I GUESS WHAT IS THE EXCESS WEIGHT OF SUCH A BEETLE IS THE UNDIGESTABLE HSRD SHELL, SO I WOULD KEEP TJE SAME RULE OF THE GENERALLY RECOMMENDED VOLUME


HAVING SAID ALL THAT, I REPEAT FOR THE MILLIONTH TIME:
CHAMELEONS ARE LIVING CREATURES AND THEY ARE INDIVIDUAL AND DIFFERENT IN REACTING TO THE ENVIRONMENT

OBSERVE YOUR ANIMALS AND ADJUST, ADJUST, ADJUST

SO DO NOT SHOUT ON ME THAT ONE CRICKET IS NOT ENOUGH FOR YOUR CHAM UNDER YOUR CONDITIONS. It might be! Especially if he is overheated BASED ON TEMPERSTURE RECOMMEMDATIONS IN CF Cresheets and if you bake him every day UNDER HEAT LAMP ALL SAY LONG BELIEVING THEY CAN AUTOREGULLATE. THEY CAN, IN CERTAIN SPANS AND GHEY CAN NOT IF EXPOSED TO SIMETHING THEY HAVE NEVER EXOERIENCED IN THE WILD

ADJUST AND DO NOT BLINDLY FOLLOW ANY CARE SHEET BE IT the one of the arrigant PETR OF THE ONE IF THE LOVELY, SYMPATHETIC AND KIND GUYS FROM CF

https://www.chameleons.info/l/autoregulation-myth-unleashed/
 

Ruthless

Established Member
This thread is now 5 pages with 90% or more of it I would say a debate between @PetNcs & @cyberlocc why not get together on a more personal note and figure it all out? And let us know the out come. When @cyberlocc reach out to me about where I got the care sheet information from I gave him the link https://www.chameleons.info/en/ didn’t know it would turn into all this let’s hope we can figure this out soon enough. BTW great information from both sides (y)
 

nightanole

Chameleon Enthusiast
For a brief poll, does anyones cham "bake under the heatlamp all day long"? For me, regardless of setup(and only had panthers/veiled) the pattern was always; warm up under the lamp, run a around for an hour or more, return to lamp and warm up, repeat. I never had one that was addicted to basking.

Ive also never had one that tried to drink itself silly. I think in 5 years of misting i saw Hairy drink 3-4 times, the rest of the time he just deals with it till the misting stops. I guess there could be big drinkers that when you hand mist them they go nutts for it. I have only seen this when they are straight out of the shipping cup.
 

Ruthless

Established Member
For a brief poll, does anyones cham "bake under the heatlamp all day long"? For me, regardless of setup(and only had panthers/veiled) the pattern was always; warm up under the lamp, run a around for an hour or more, return to lamp and warm up, repeat. I never had one that was addicted to basking.

Ive also never had one that tried to drink itself silly. I think in 5 years of misting i saw Hairy drink 3-4 times, the rest of the time he just deals with it till the misting stops. I guess there could be big drinkers that when you hand mist them they go nutts for it. I have only seen this when they are straight out of the shipping cup.
It crazy you asked that cause I just recently changed my heat light schedule because I have seen the same type of activity from my Panthers the lights are on for the first few hours the on for 40 minutes then off for 20 minutes this will continue though out the 12 hour cycle.
 

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
Gryllus bimaculatus
Thanks for the information, and reply.

That cricket looks fairly large, possibly much larger than our Crickets. Those crickets are illegal in the US, so we do not have a comparison. What would the ratio be to a Banded Cricket? Do you have access to those over the pond?


It crazy you asked that cause I just recently changed my heat light schedule because I have seen the same type of activity from my Panthers the lights are on for the first few hours the on for 40 minutes then off for 20 minutes this will continue though out the 12 hour cycle.
Just a personal opinion, I haven't found much studies on this exact aspect. However I am very much against the idea of flipping lights on and off, its completely unnatural. That includes flipping on of the basking light in the morning, flipping on of the UVB, Flipping off of both at night. Especially flipping a light on and off throughout the day. That is just an opinion, based on nature.

However this is a very much agreed on in the hobby of reptiles as a whole in this case. Its said not to use an On/Off thermostat, to avoid the very situation you are creating. Most folks in the hobby are okay, flipping lights on in the morning however, which I do not see as ideal either.

Depending on your supplemental lighting, you may be creating a even more unnatural environment by flipping the lights on and off, due to your supplemental lighting. UVB bulbs, are about as far from natural light as you can get. To start they are around 8500k, for the 6%s, they are spiked in only a few of the spectra, and IMO just a generally poor light source. We need them for now, but they are still horrible light source.

Chameleons 100% can detect that change in lighting, and will adjust behavior, mood, and rhythm based on it.
 
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PetNcs

Avid Member
This thread is now 5 pages with 90% or more of it I would say a debate between @PetNcs & @cyberlocc why not get together on a more personal note and figure it all out? And let us know the out come. When @cyberlocc reach out to me about where I got the care sheet information from I gave him the link https://www.chameleons.info/en/ didn’t know it would turn into all this let’s hope we can figure this out soon enough. BTW great information from both sides (y)
We treid tomsort out in PM but came to no comclusion and had a disastrous and frustrating debate a out nothing
I am not ready to continue.
Once anybody wilk start personal attacks I quit and will not react on it
Anyone can find me easiky if interested in my views
 
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