Anyone ever AI their chams?

[Dr O]

i placed a virgin female in w/ a virgin son from Pixel. lots of head bobbing for 2 days but no mount. today he finally mounted her and wiped his smegma across her vent, however he extended both hemipenes, never inserted them into her cloaca, and being a virgin he got a bit too excited and dropped a big sperm load on a leaf below. after that he wandered away as if he were satisfied.

artificial insemination occurred to me—i attached a small SS feeding tube to a syringe and sucked up the 3 drops of sperm, took the female, inserted the tube into her cloaca approx. 2 cm and delivered the sperm. somewhat ironically, she went from pure peach to barred colors a few minutes after the procedure. not stressed at all by what i did, so i assume the cloacal insertion made her feel like the deed was done.

the cloaca is divided into 3 zones, the urodeum, coprodeum, and proctodeum (the urodeum is the entrance to the oviducts). i cannot be sure where exactly the sperm was delivered but i have a feeling those little boys know how to swim in the right direction. i probably won’t put them together again until she lays eggs, otherwise i won’t know if it will work. anyone else ever give AI a shot? here’s 2 photos that show his extended hemipenes missing the mark.

 

[djfishygillz]

Not I Dr. O I think you are the only one

 

[fluxlizard]

No but my Dad (taught and did research at a vet school) was always trying to get me to try. I used to have a good article someone wrote up on it- turns out it isn't difficult to do for reptiles- it's pretty easy. Don't know if I still have it on my backup drive anymore or if it's lost forever. But the guy who did the writeup found it really simple and had great success. Was using pipettes and sucking stuff up manually LOL. Think *maybe* he deposited the stuff the same way, but can't remember for sure. His write up on it was colored with his humor of the situation. He was working with temperate species- I would think chams would be even easier because you wouldn't need to cycle them prior to collecting or inseminating, plus chams store sperm so timing would be no problem.

Sorry I can't remember where he made the "deposit". I *think* maybe it is because you don't need to be very accurate for it to be effective. Seems like maybe that was the case.

I decided not to go through with it because my father had a role in developing poultry artificial insemination and in spite of his glowing reviews of it, also constantly talked about how the modern birds had been ruined by it in some ways as well- too stupid to breed, incapable of non-artifical reproduction, etc. Didn't sound like a direction I wanted to take my lizards, and I didn't want a zillion related to a single stud in my gene pool- I'd rather take my chances with genetic diversity and good old fashioned selective breeding. My interest is in trying to develop self-sustaining terrarium born and bred populations where whenever possible outside genetics eventually are unnecessary. Artificial insemination is either a lot of bother or a bad match for my goals...

 

[Justin18]

I feel that if you are successful we are going to start seeing people selling their chameleons sperm here on the forums lol

 

[fluxlizard]

I think if he is successful we are going to see 1000s of babies all half siblings from a very desirable father on the market- not from Dr O but from whoever applies the method to large scale commerical breeding.

 

[Dr O]

just to state what i hope is obvious—vets AI everything throughout our school years, nevermind our professional careers. i have inseminated many species before, so when this occurred to me to try it was with a lot of experience behind it. and it can do no harm. i’m curious!!

fyi for some—anatomically, hemipenes are really basically folds of tissue used to divert the sperm to the right place, forming grooves for the semen to run down, and contracting the urethral muscles (peristalsis) to help propel the sperm forward. but it’s all external to the hemipene; there’s no tiny little hole at the end of his wee-wee. it’s basically dripped out and takes a few odd roller coaster loops before the female takes it up on her end.

anyhoo, i hope it works!! since i don’t know the exact area of the cloaca that is her intake valve, i spread out the distribution as much as i could. just give me 30 vigorous sperm in the right place!!

 

[Dr O]

I feel that if you are successful we are going to start seeing people selling their chameleons sperm here on the forums lol

now that’s interesting—it would certainly change the breeding possibilities. today if you admire a cham you can get an offspring w/ 50% of the genetics. you’re talking about a 100% genetic transfer. lots of possibilities arise with that.

of course this is done in virtually all domesticated animals, but the effects of that in the cham world….could be good, bad, or no real impact. but there’s a lot of squabbles brewing in that topic….

 

[Justin18]

I think if he is successful we are going to see 1000s of babies all half siblings from a very desirable father on the market- not from Dr O but from whoever applies the method to large scale commerical breeding.

Well what I was thinking was that this process could be used more for rarer species of chameleons. Maybe like a species where it's hard to get both male and female. If you just had one all you would have to do was find somebody on the forums with another one of the opposite sex. Then instead of shipping one chameleon to the other on loan or physically meeting up with the other person you could just ship the sperm instead.

And for the more common species I don't think that would be as much of a problem if you consider supply and demand. If somebody would "mass produce" their stud then it would be very easy to get your hands a hold of his offspring which would drive the price down of his off springs considerably.

 

[absolutbill]

fyi for some—anatomically, hemipenes are really basically folds of tissue used to divert the sperm to the right place, forming grooves for the semen to run down, and contracting the urethral muscles (peristalsis) to help propel the sperm forward. but it’s all external to the hemipene; there’s no tiny little hole at the end of his wee-wee. it’s basically dripped out and takes a few odd roller coaster loops before the female takes it up on her end.

Not a day goes by that

1. I don't learn something on this forum
2. I see chameleon porn
3. I wonder what the NSA thinks of my chameleon porn

 

[Justin18]

now that’s interesting—it would certainly change the breeding possibilities. today if you admire a cham you can get an offspring w/ 50% of the genetics. you’re talking about a 100% genetic transfer. lots of possibilities arise with that.

of course this is done in virtually all domesticated animals, but the effects of that in the cham world….could be good, bad, or no real impact. but there’s a lot of squabbles brewing in that topic….

If you are successful you may have just changed the whole chameleon breeding game here! I think it would make a big/good difference in the cham world, at least I hope lol

 

[Dr O]

Not a day goes by that

1. I don't learn something on this forum
2. I see chameleon porn
3. I wonder what the NSA thinks of my chameleon porn

lol!

and as a member of the NSA i can tell you that we’re fascinated by the topic.

 

[fluxlizard]

And for the more common species I don't think that would be as much of a problem if you consider supply and demand. If somebody would "mass produce" their stud then it would be very easy to get your hands a hold of his offspring which would drive the price down of his off springs considerably.

I wasn't thinking about the mass production from a financial standpoint.

I was thinking more about how those thousands of desirable half siblings effect the genetic health a generation or two or three down the road.

Suddenly a lot of the population becomes closely related and also if there is a genetic problem- suddenly there is a lot more of it spread around.

now that’s interesting—it would certainly change the breeding possibilities. today if you admire a cham you can get an offspring w/ 50% of the genetics. you’re talking about a 100% genetic transfer. lots of possibilities arise with that.

You can't get a 100% transfer without cloning, right? What are you talking about 100%? I don't understand.

 

[little leaf]

LOL - I think this is GREAT ! I have to admit, I have eyed the "wasted " sperm plugs laying on the vines at times, and wondered.......Hmmmm , what if I took this to my female and........... I would not breed her, like you said, just to see if it worked - I have only AI'ed horses - I wish the collection process for horses was as simple as picking it up off a leaf - lol

 

[Dr O]

LOL - I think this is GREAT ! I have to admit, I have eyed the "wasted " sperm plugs laying on the vines at times, and wondered.......Hmmmm , what if I took this to my female and........... I would not breed her, like you said, just to see if it worked - I have only AI'ed horses - I wish the collection process for horses was as simple as picking it up off a leaf - lol

anyone who has ever even seen a stallion get collected will never forget it. depends on the horse (of course), but it can get pretty hairy!!

 

[Justin18]

I wasn't thinking about the mass production from a financial standpoint.

I was thinking more about how those thousands of desirable half siblings effect the genetic health a generation or two or three down the road.

Suddenly a lot of the population becomes closely related and also if there is a genetic problem- suddenly there is a lot more of it spread around.

I agree with you 100%. But don't you think the financial side would stop people from mass producing their desirable cham? In my opinion people wouldn't want to ruin the value of a cham like that so they wouldn't mass produce their cham to begin with. No mass production, no genetic problem.

 

[Dr O]

You can't get a 100% transfer without cloning, right? What are you talking about 100%? I don't understand.

Sorry, I was very clumsily trying to say that in the present day i.e. the first scenario, I can buy a chameleon because I admire the sire’s looks, however I can only breed babies that then have 25% of his genetics.

vs.--if we’re transferring 100% of that’s sires genetics into your female, you too are an owner of that sire’s genetics now, and your babies are 50% too.

very awkward dialogue, i admit. but hopefully you get the gist of what i meant. either way it’s not terribly important a point.

 

[fluxlizard]

I agree with you 100%. But don't you think the financial side would stop people from mass producing their desirable cham? In my opinion people wouldn't want to ruin the value of a cham like that so they wouldn't mass produce their cham to begin with. No mass production, no genetic problem.

I don't share your optimism. I've seen too many expensive herps become cheap and commonplace.

Panther chameleons will be mass produced. It is almost inevitable- the only way this will not happen is if some really extreme scenarios play out (wild caught stock becomes illegal before we have unlocked the secrets to a sustainable terrarium population, severe economic depression dries up the market, some kind of chameleon virus breaks out and wipes out captive populations- that kind of thing).

The question is- do you want those inevitably mass produced chameleons to all be related to each other, or do you want a genetically diverse terrarium population?

 

[fluxlizard]

All my cautions aside- I do see the appeal.

Pre-fire this year I had some very unique bearded dragons from selective breeding over many generations for over a decade. I was a couple of generations away probably from reaching what I was working toward. Don't think that my father's enthusiasm about AI wasn't on my mind tempting me. LOL. But the situation is a little different too- bearded dragons are already mass produced and don't have so many problems about multigenerational breeding...

 

[Justin18]

I don't share your optimism. I've seen too many expensive herps become cheap and commonplace.

Panther chameleons will be mass produced. It is almost inevitable- the only way this will not happen is if some really extreme scenarios play out (wild caught stock becomes illegal before we have unlocked the secrets to a sustainable terrarium population, severe economic depression dries up the market, some kind of chameleon virus breaks out and wipes out captive populations- that kind of thing).

The question is- do you want mass produced chameleons to all be related to each other, or do you want a genetically diverse terrarium population?

I don't think anybody would argue they want to see a mass production of chameleons all related to each other, including myself. I think it all comes down to the money. If it does happen to be profitable, then yes the mass production of panthers is most likely inevitable. But if it's not profitable, then I doubt we would see any negative consequences.

Maybe if we looked at another type of pet where AI was not used, then used, we could make an accurate prediction as to the effect this could have in the chameleon world.

 

[Dr O]

well, either way it's still not really a feasible option. I only transferred some sperm from an excited young male. when someone figures out how to consistently extract sperm from males, then we're opening the floodgates to all of these issues. I expect it might be a little less exciting than collecting from a stallion!

however, there are plenty of times when I can collect "dripped" sperm. this is something I will likely try again. and freezing appropriately and seeing if they revive, for that matter.