What to call F. pardalis morphs

[stevereecy]

Why do you think I'm suggesting throwing out a labeling system? Read the thread. I'm advocating clarifying the terms you use, since they are not adequate and cause fights.

I wasn't replying to you. There were a few posts in there that implied that panther locale wasn't noteworthy since they were all the same animal.

As for saying your chams are Ambanja-like, and disclosing that there is certainty that they are not pure...thats a good thing...good idea.

FWIW, I've seen this argument again and again, but my perspective is different because I was heavily involved in chams years ago and I'm just getting back into it. Back then, crossing-morphs, or creating designer chams was absolute taboo. Now its more accepted. Perhaps this is a function of the low export rate compared to the past. My post was directed more toward how we should, as a group, respond to the problem. Not to you in particular.

Steve

 

[Kent67]

Steve,

I just looked at your website and it seems you more or less agree with the concept behind what I'm talking about.
http://www.chameleonplantation.com/blog/?page_id=32

Your Orange Phase veiled pairing is from a refined line that produces Orange phase offspring. This is possible because very specific artificial selection has occured over generations by people. This is a designer line because it doesn't occur in high numbers naturally in the wild and because it has been refined over multiple generations to be reliable.

With your Ambanja-type panthers, the bloodlines are not necessarily as refined. You've got a male that certainly looks like the Ambanja phenotype but he's still CH from an imported mother. There's less certainty with what his offspring will look like than the multi-gen Orange veileds, right? The mother is another potential problem. You got her from a reputable source who said she was from the Kammers. Of course it's most likely all accuarate, but, any number of things could have happened and you are doing your part to be up front about what you know. Adding the suffix to get Blue Bar Ambanja-type is really only 5 extra keystrokes that just adds to your disclaimer that it's not a refined bloodline. The only results from doing so are a better understanding for ALL consumers and an extra bit of padding for you, the seller. If one of your blue-bar Ambanjas from this clutch turned out looking like a Diego Suarez mix of some kind, would you refund the purchase price? Would you do it unsolicited?

 

[Kent67]

I wasn't replying to you. There were a few posts in there that implied that panther locale wasn't noteworthy since they were all the same animal.

As for saying your chams are Ambanja-like, and disclosing that there is certainty that they are not pure...thats a good thing...good idea.

FWIW, I've seen this argument again and again, but my perspective is different because I was heavily involved in chams years ago and I'm just getting back into it. Back then, crossing-morphs, or creating designer chams was absolute taboo. Now its more accepted. Perhaps this is a function of the low export rate compared to the past. My post was directed more toward how we should, as a group, respond to the problem. Not to you in particular.

Steve

Steve,

My apologies. I obviously thought it was. This thread is so long and has so many subtopics it's getting confusing. I want everyone to keep locale-type breedings going. I still prefer the natural look too. But there are some major differences in the way things are being bred now versus back then, and I think the industry as a whole needs to accept it, and then make it more obvious with the terminology as to what's going on.

Incidentally, your name sounds really familiar and I've been meaning to ask. Were you a F. lateralis breeder? Did you ever purchase baby pardalis from me in the midish 90's?

 

[Prism Chameleons]

I admire the efforts to try to “refine” the labeling system as we now have it with panther chameleons. Although I can see your reasons behind trying to change the system, I fear that any effort you will have taken will be in vain. The labeling system we now have I believe is the best system available. If we try to “change” the system, I believe we will only cause confusion and it could possibly lead to further incorrect labels to panther chameleons. There ARE specific phenotypes to various localities with panther chameleons. Ankaramy do tend to have various shades of pink, Diego Suarez do have various shades of greens, reds, oranges, and yellows with mostly likely red eye turrets and V bars. Nosy Be’s are various shades of blues, greens, sometimes yellow lips and lavender crests or ridges. Ambilobes are capable of producing a variety of colorations that cover every spectrum of the rainbow with varying bar colorations. By calling them locale specifics, we are able to give customers an idea of what their panther chameleon is more apt to display in their colorations.

It is also right to say to that through generations of breeding, some localities have been more “refined or designed” through time. The absolutely beautiful bloodline of Ed & Liddy of Chameleon’s Only Glorfindel/Aldamir Ambanja line is a very good example. They have done a beautiful job in their multi-breeding generations from the gorgeous panther chameleon(s) Glorfindel and Aldamir. Through their selective breeding they have captured beautiful blues and each generation of breeding has become more “refined.” These definitely have become “designed” through time, but do we change the name of their locality specific breeding? Why? They were Ambanja from the start and are still from Ambanja heritage today.

I think the question here is what does one do when people intentionally or unintentionally cross locale specific panther chameleons. Or if a female of one locale mates with another locale specific male during importation without our knowledge. Or if a panther chameleon is collected in a “cross-boundary” area of Madagascar. I believe the answer is “DISCLOSURE” to the buyer. Many of you may have seen I am in the middle of re-designing my website and after MY learning experience of the sale on Uncle Sam, I fully intend to make a statement on my website regarding any panther chameleon I sell of unknown heritage (although Jake was fully aware that I did not breed Uncle Sam when purchased). I think Uncle Sam got a VERY bad rap on this forum. He is such a gorgeous chameleon and although I am a “purist” at heart, I don’t believe we should think of panthers that don’t follow the “rules” of locality in a negative view. He is gorgeous! I have had emails from people wanting more that look like him! I wish I had more that look like Uncle Sam. He is stunning. Jake – I think you will have many who will want some of his offspring .

I don’t see anything wrong with labeling a panther chameleon of cross lineage as a “designer” panther chameleon. As long as the buyer is aware that they are purchasing a chameleon of either “unknown” heritage or intentional crossbred locale heritage, I see no reason at all why we should view them in a negative way. I felt bad for Uncle Sam. He is a beautiful chameleon and was being viewed in a negative manner despite his beauty. I find that sad.

So, this is how I see this. Labeling locale specific panther chameleons serve a purpose. It helps categorize various locale phenotypes that are more apt to be displayed by region. It helps the community keep lines “pure” as far as coloration phenotypes for those regions. It helps the buyers find mates or panther chameleons they want or need for their collection. Disclosure of “unknown” heritage should be disclosed by all sellers of panther chameleons. Babies from a wild caught mother should either 1) be proven out by keeping the babies until full colorations are displayed, or 2) be disclosed in the sale that those said babies have not been proven out and heritage is NOT guaranteed.

If it turns out that a panther chameleon has questionable heritage of “purity” we shouldn’t look “down” on those chameleons! Cross boundary phenotypes I am sure happens all the time in the wild and as we have seen on this forum, it happens in the marketplace too. I am proud that I was able to share Uncle Sam with Jake as he is probably one of the top beautiful chameleons that has passed through my hands. Whatever background he turns out to be – he is simply beautiful.

 

[Kent67]

Although I can see your reasons behind trying to change the system, I fear that any effort you will have taken will be in vain. The labeling system we now have I believe is the best system available.

I'm only trying to change the current chameleon keepers' terminology to the same terminology that is being used with many different herp species within the herp industry so that there is more clarity, for the chameleon community.

By calling them locale specifics, we are able to give customers an idea of what their panther chameleon is more apt to display in their colorations.

By calling them locale specifics, when you have no accurate import data to begin with, also sets customers up for a huge disappointment when mistakes are made.

It is also right to say to that through generations of breeding, some localities have been more “refined or designed” through time. The absolutely beautiful bloodline of Ed & Liddy of Chameleon’s Only Glorfindel/Aldamir Ambanja line is a very good example. They have done a beautiful job in their multi-breeding generations from the gorgeous panther chameleon(s) Glorfindel and Aldamir. Through their selective breeding they have captured beautiful blues and each generation of breeding has become more “refined.” These definitely have become “designed” through time, but do we change the name of their locality specific breeding? Why? They were Ambanja from the start and are still from Ambanja heritage today.

They started with animals that look like the Ambanja phenotype. They've designed a line that holds true to that phenotype. There are a lot of similarities between animals from Ankify and Ambanja. So much so that I've never seen Ankify locale-type animals for sale. Everything is just listed as Ambanja, right? Europeans are much more serious about keeping locale-types pure, for all herps in captivity, than their US counterparts. If you look at thier collections, you will see the two types are separated. If even one animal that the Kammers bred into the Glorfindel/Aldamir line had any Ankify blood, then it is not a locale-specific Ambanja, even if they themselves collected every other animal from the lineage from within the town of Ambanja.

Or if a panther chameleon is collected in a “cross-boundary” area of Madagascar. I believe the answer is “DISCLOSURE” to the buyer.

But animals don't come in with that much collection detail, yet. How could this be done?

I don’t see anything wrong with labeling a panther chameleon of cross lineage as a “designer” panther chameleon. As long as the buyer is aware that they are purchasing a chameleon of either “unknown” heritage or intentional crossbred locale heritage, I see no reason at all why we should view them in a negative way.

This is not what I want to see at all. A first generation cross-locale is anything BUT a "designer." The line, and its results, have not been refined and the outcomes are unpredictable. The term cross-locale, hybrid, mutt, etc should still apply to these.

So, this is how I see this. Labeling locale specific panther chameleons serve a purpose. It helps categorize various locale phenotypes that are more apt to be displayed by region. It helps the community keep lines “pure” as far as coloration phenotypes for those regions. It helps the buyers find mates or panther chameleons they want or need for their collection. Disclosure of “unknown” heritage should be disclosed by all sellers of panther chameleons. Babies from a wild caught mother should either 1) be proven out by keeping the babies until full colorations are displayed, or 2) be disclosed in the sale that those said babies have not been proven out and heritage is NOT guaranteed.

Change the word "specific" (since there's no such thing) in your second sentence to "type" and we are in perfect agreement.

I am proud that I was able to share Uncle Sam with Jake as he is probably one of the top beautiful chameleons that has passed through my hands. Whatever background he turns out to be – he is simply beautiful.

But you bought him with the intentions of selling him as part of a business. Instead you gave away what you'd paid for him AND the intended profits, because he didn't look like an Ambilobe "specific" animal. For an animal that is one of the most beautiful to ever pass through your hands, that doesn't seem fair to me at all. If you had purchased an Ambilobe-type from an unproven line, meaning this is what the phenotypic expressions "should" look like, and sold him as an Ambilobe-type from an unproven line, would you still have felt the need to reimburse Jake?

 

[stevereecy]

Steve,

I just looked at your website and it seems you more or less agree with the concept behind what I'm talking about.
http://www.chameleonplantation.com/blog/?page_id=32

Your Orange Phase veiled pairing is from a refined line that produces Orange phase offspring. This is possible because very specific artificial selection has occured over generations by people. This is a designer line because it doesn't occur in high numbers naturally in the wild and because it has been refined over multiple generations to be reliable.

With your Ambanja-type panthers, the bloodlines are not necessarily as refined. You've got a male that certainly looks like the Ambanja phenotype but he's still CH from an imported mother. There's less certainty with what his offspring will look like than the multi-gen Orange veileds, right? The mother is another potential problem. You got her from a reputable source who said she was from the Kammers. Of course it's most likely all accuarate, but, any number of things could have happened and you are doing your part to be up front about what you know. Adding the suffix to get Blue Bar Ambanja-type is really only 5 extra keystrokes that just adds to your disclaimer that it's not a refined bloodline. The only results from doing so are a better understanding for ALL consumers and an extra bit of padding for you, the seller. If one of your blue-bar Ambanjas from this clutch turned out looking like a Diego Suarez mix of some kind, would you refund the purchase price? Would you do it unsolicited?

Heh. Actually, because I don't completely 100% know for sure that everything is what I think it is, and I'll disclose what I do know on the front-end, with the understanding that there would be no refunds. When the time comes, I'll probably price them according to my degree of certainty. I would charge absolute top-dollar if I was able to prove my lines. I could see doing a replacement type of exchange in the future, but there wouldn't really be any business risk there because I'd receive an adult for a baby. Besides, who would trade out a pet once they bonded with it?

FWIW, I think its implicit that the buyer always runs the risk that it may have mixed blood unless absolutely guaranteed by the seller...which is something I don't ever remember seeing. This is a reality of the marketplace, and why it is such a good idea to buy from a reputable seller. Also, I do like your concept, and I'll probably use it.

Steve

 

[stevereecy]

Steve,

My apologies. I obviously thought it was. This thread is so long and has so many subtopics it's getting confusing. I want everyone to keep locale-type breedings going. I still prefer the natural look too. But there are some major differences in the way things are being bred now versus back then, and I think the industry as a whole needs to accept it, and then make it more obvious with the terminology as to what's going on.

Incidentally, your name sounds really familiar and I've been meaning to ask. Were you a F. lateralis breeder? Did you ever purchase baby pardalis from me in the midish 90's?

Holy smoke, man! Now that I think of it, my very first Pardalis was purchased from a guy named Kent. I think I even still have a copy of a e-picture (you?) took of my cham's sire in my files. I think I bought a female from you. She kicked out some amazing babies, and I sure wish I had her offspring today.

Steve

 

[Kent67]

HOLY SMOKES IS RIGHT! That was your first, I remember! So, how the heck ya been?? Haha

If you were able to EVER post any pics of her or her progeny, it would be....beyond coolness. I never exactly produced a whole lot of any one species, and I never got to see any grown ups that I didn't keep for myself, despite assurances I would

 

[stevereecy]

HOLY SMOKES IS RIGHT! That was your first, I remember! So, how the heck ya been?? Haha

If you were able to EVER post any pics of her or her progeny, it would be....beyond coolness. I never exactly produced a whole lot of any one species, and I never got to see any grown ups that I didn't keep for myself, despite assurances I would

Not to hijack this thread, but only for a moment...
Here's a link: http://www.chameleonplantation.com/blog/?p=21
This shows either the children, or the grandchildren, of my female, so they were your cham's grandchildren or great grandchildren. Basically, I used one male to generate offspring, then held three females back and mated them with an unrelated male with great genetics to create these.

Been doing fine Its always scary buying a female, and I'm glad the one I got from you was definitely pure. Got anymore?

To be on-topic for a moment, This is controversial, but I'm convinced that keeping the lines pure leads to better looking chams after a couple generations because the color genes all point in the same direction. Whereas, I fear, but can't confirm that F3 or F4 mixed morphs lose some vibrancy because the color genes don't know "which way to point".

Steve

 

[Prism Chameleons]

Slash and burn. Okay. This will be my last post on this thread as I see it not really going anywhere. You are trying to change terminology that has been used for years in the panther chameleon community and I don’t think there have been all that many disappointed people in the industry when it comes to purchasing various locales of panther chameleons. Nor do I think there have been all that many panther chameleons that have been sold as one locale and turned out to be another. I have had two instances of questionable locales in the years I have been selling panther chameleons. One was Uncle Sam – another was a clutch of Ankaramy I purchased several years ago from another breeder whose wc mother happened to be a Nosy Be. Two instances out of hundreds I don’t think signify a problem.

We have generalizations and phenotypes that are more indicative to specific regions in Madagascar that have been documented through time, experience, and collection. We know through experience what those phenotypes typically display in various areas. We don’t need import data to see this with our own eyes. I also don’t see that many customers disappointed when they buy a panther chameleon as a particular locale. Like I said, out of hundreds of panther chameleons I have sold, I have had two questionable. I don’t think adding the word “type” behind the locale being sold will make anything more clear. It’s just an additional word behind the locale.

And why did I refund Jake his money? I did it because I have a huge heart, not because I felt Uncle Sam wasn’t worth his price. If anything, Uncle Sam is turning worth more than what I sold him for as he continues to color out. I have never been in this business for the money – never. I am breeding panther chameleons because I love panther chameleons and I want to make others happy in being able to own panther chameleons too. I wanted Jake to be happy. And clearly, after him displaying the photos of his new chameleon and Uncle Sam being criticized, I could feel Jake’s hurt. If I was in this for the money, Jake never would have seen a dime. My purpose in breeding panther chameleons is for the chameleons I sell to have a happy home AND a happy owner. Period.

 

[Kent67]

OT Part: Insane. Unreal. I'm utterly beside myself. I followed a link to your website from either here or an Adcham post....quite a while ago. I read that blog and looked at those pictures and had NO IDEA! I actually couldn't even remember what locale-type it was till now. If I'm remembering the founding male correctly, it seems you bred out some of the red in the bars in those animals? I'm pretty sure I remembered the name so well because I really did want what you were breeding. It was lateralis, right? As to having more, sadly no. I was basically out of chameleons too, but a couple things happened this year that sucked me back in! I think my last clutch of pardalis hatched in 2002 and I sold them all a long time ago


As to deeper generations of crossed locales, check out Ed and Liddy's page of crosses. Many of them are up into 5th and 6th generations.


Further OT Edit: Steve, I'm still putting a couple things together here. You're the guy who advertised looking for purple bar Ambanja-types right? Based on wanting more animals like you had "back in the day." I'm blown away that those animals trace their lineage back to me, considering how long it's been. I've always thought the "purple barred" individuals were just a slight variant on the animals where red and blue are sort of bled together. The founder male of your line, if I remember correctly, had bars that started solid red, bled into a mixture (purplish) in the middle, and continued as solid blue from a little over mid-body down the tail. It's neat to see your purples came from a more standard, although great looking, Ambanja-type.

 

[Kent67]

Jenna,

I can't force anyone to change the terminology that they use. I have spoken to a number of people who've been into reptiles AND chameleons for a long time, and they have overall, tended to agree with what I'm saying. I have changed the terminology I will use, from here on. I believe others will begin to as well. If you don't see the benefit in identifying your refined lineages of blue-bar Ambilobe-types in a way that reflects the quality, value, and predictability as being superior to the blue-bar Ambilobe-types of the same age that "reputable" sellers LLLReptile and Reptile Depot sell for $50-70 less than yours, then don't. You may not have had a bunch of animals that turned out looking like something other than what you sold them for because of your quality control. The same is not true of LLLReptile.

If you think I was implying you are in the business for the money, I was not. The point I was making is that you don't need to be buying animals from other people and then giving them away. If I'm wrong, I'd be more than happy to take some free Uncle Sams.

 

[Kent67]

I hate adding yet another post to this thing, so I'll make it quick. Some have already read my last post and I want to make sure this gets seen. I think Jenna and I have had a "failure to communicate" on several levels. I got frustrated and I chose some words that reflected that. Unless she asks me to, I'm going to leave them as they were. I've used her business and a certain situation as examples for the thread out of convenience to the topic.

For the record, from everything I've read and heard, I've always thought she is one of the best people out there to get animals from. Her actions involving
the situation mentioned previously only solidified that belief. None of my posts were intended in any way to reflect negatively upon what she does and should not be interpreted that way.

 

[joefarah]

Kent,

Your very first paragraph (the initial post) of this thread sums up exactly how I feel about this subject.

... just to toss my pennies in the pile.