Vieled moprhs?

[TylerStewart]

All i am sayin is that,it seems like you think that people with red hair are mutants or something,and its funny how you compare a yemen chameleon with freaky black spots to a person with red hair? Please explain this???

That's not what I meant at all... Not sure how you came to that, all I'm saying is that from what I've seen, there is nothing physically wrong with these "different" animals. It is naturally occuring (at least with the trans) and breeding them to eachother produces like types, similar to redheaded humans (as an example). I never said anyone with red hair was a mutant, and even clarified that by saying I dated one. Re-read my post with less negativity going into it.

 

[TreelionsUK]

Sorry tyler,I just dont Like the example as i am a redhead!,I should have looked a bit deeper,and saw what you were saying
We're a bit firey (Like Grounds Keeper willy in the Simpsons )
Sorry again!!And sorry all for my past comments tyler

I am embarrsed LOL

 

[PEPPERQUILL1]

Veilds

Alot of people take things to far.I think the morph is interestng, like Tyler said something new.Personally I don't care what most of you think about them, I like them.Honestly if someone want's to breed veilds that are bright red with purple dot I say go for it.

 

[chrisandpugs]

My interpretation of their black markings.

In my opinion, especially the ones with the heavy black markings look like they are survivors of a terrible house fire (meaning they look like burnt cases!). Just my opinion regarding some of their coloring. However, it would be just cool to see at a Reptile Show some day!(Just to see, not to buy!)

Christine

 

[Vegas Chad]

Alot of people take things to far.I think the morph is interestng, like Tyler said something new.Personally I don't care what most of you think about them, I like them.Honestly if someone want's to breed veilds that are bright red with purple dot I say go for it.

Im with you... I like em... I like the new and different, the path less taken as some call it. If you dont like em, dont get em. They make me think of that one dog with the spots... I'll be damned if I can remember its name at the moment tho.

 

[Brad]

There is a big difference between the red hair trait in humans and the veileds in question. Full populations of humans with red hair can be found in nature. There is no outside force controlling and preserving the red hair. This is not the case for the translucents or black-patched veileds. It is my understanding that these veileds are suffering from genetic disorders rarely found in nature. They do not represent a population of species anywhere on the earth as far as I know; please let me know if I am wrong.

I think a better comparison for preserving these veileds would be to take a rarely found genetic skin disease that affects humans and try to preserve the odd display by breeding and inbreeding.

There is a difference between finding a whole population of specimens with a unique trait compared to the rarely found specimen with genetic mutations.

 

[westcoastchameleons]

Interesting how the translucents had everybody up in arms, but these are ok (so far). I think they're good looking, anything different catches my interest.

When i reacted to the translucents, i reacted of stupidity....They are in no way a bad idea, as long as it has nothing to do with the health of the animals. They are interesting creature you got here!

 

[PEPPERQUILL1]

I think a better comparison for preserving these veileds would be to take a rarely found genetic skin disease that affects humans and try to preserve the odd display by breeding and inbreeding.

So are you saying albino people have a skin disease?I don't think so, it is lack of pigmentation, I think the same goes for the veilds but a little different.Its not like the veilds colors are eating away at its skin and causing them harm.This isn't a disease.Maybe they are not basically pleasing to you, but it is not affecting the animals at all, after all their color blind.

 

[PEPPERQUILL1]

aesthetically* pleasing, sorry missed the typo

 

[Brad]

I don't want to disrespect any members with albinism or members with loved ones who have albinism. I had a childhood friend with the condition and life was not easy for him.

I never mentioned albinism. However, the fact is that albinism is a genetic disorder that can be passed on through recessive genes. It impairs function. The definition of disease:

A disease is an abnormal condition of an organism that impairs function

It is a disease, but not in the way many people think of when they read the word 'disease'. It is definitely not contagious in any way.

 

[PEPPERQUILL1]

We are in fact talking about Reptiles. NOT HUMANS! Very few here are actually working with these animals and are making claims as if they have. Diagnosing something you have never seen or worked with is a little absurd. I don't see how anyone's theories about an animal you've never worked with holds any merit. Translucents are growing under completely normal conditions that all of our veileds are being kept under and are thriving. A human albino's struggle through life? (I don't see how this relates to a lizard)

 

[TylerStewart]

I don't want to disrespect any members with albinism or members with loved ones who have albinism. I had a childhood friend with the condition and life was not easy for him.

I never mentioned albinism. However, the fact is that albinism is a genetic disorder that can be passed on through recessive genes. It impairs function. The definition of disease:
Quote:
A disease is an abnormal condition of an organism that impairs function

It is a disease, but not in the way many people think of when they read the word 'disease'. It is definitely not contagious in any way.

Simple enough to me then, they must not be diseased, because they certainly don't have "impaired function" and they're not "struggling through life." Right?

I still don't think anyone understands my redhead comparison...

 

[FL Chams]

You're into redheads. I get it.... You love beautiful women. Good for you! This thread is sounding more like something that belongs on Dr. Phil or Oprah not for the chameleon forums. Life Struggles......Chameleons People!

 

[Brad]

So are you saying albino people have a skin disease?

We are in fact talking about Reptiles. NOT HUMANS! ... A human albino's struggle through life? (I don't see how this relates to a lizard)

You are the one that brought up albinism in people. I was only responding to your question.


I don't believe I have diagnosed anything in this thread. I would not know where to start to diagnose your $3000/pair translucent veileds, short of a trip to a veterinarian or local university. I think only someone with the proper educational background can do that.

 

[Heika]

We are in fact talking about Reptiles. NOT HUMANS! Very few here are actually working with these animals and are making claims as if they have. Diagnosing something you have never seen or worked with is a little absurd. I don't see how anyone's theories about an animal you've never worked with holds any merit. Translucents are growing under completely normal conditions that all of our veileds are being kept under and are thriving. A human albino's struggle through life? (I don't see how this relates to a lizard)

Ahem.. what is absurd is that you made the comparison first. I agree, it is absolutly stupid to compare these veileds to people with albinism, but, hey, that is exactly what you did below.

So are you saying albino people have a skin disease?I don't think so, it is lack of pigmentation, I think the same goes for the veilds but a little different.Its not like the veilds colors are eating away at its skin and causing them harm.This isn't a disease.Maybe they are not basically pleasing to you, but it is not affecting the animals at all, after all their color blind.

Why is this such a touchy subject? Some people don't like them.. some people think they shouldn't be kept. Some people do like them and think that they should be kept. Fine! Leave it at that. But, I have yet to see any conclusive evidence that translucents can be kept just like a regular veiled without any health consequences. Yet again, you are making that claim when there just isn't enough evidence to say that.

It is really, really hard for me to believe your claims, pepperquill, when I see that you have such a vested interest in the chameleons. After all, they are still for sale on your site for an astronomical price. Why make claims that may come back and bite you in the ass later? Just stick to the facts.. so far, the translucents don't seem to be having any health issues because of their skin defects. However, that does not mean they won't develop them later. Time will tell. In the meantime, the hostility and continued posturing in this thread isn't helping anyone's position.

I think the person who is doing this right is Mike from FLChams. He is carefully growing these animals and making careful, considerate and mature observations about their health. I have no doubt that if Mike finds something negative about the health of these animals, he will disclose what he has discovered before he sells any of the offspring. Pepperquill.. would you do the same? Or, would the dollar motivate you to call them healthy and sell, sell, sell?

I have spoken to Reptilezoo in the past, and I really believe he is working to manage his new morph along the same lines as Mike. That is commendable. I think his morph will be successful. It is fortunate for him that the transluscents came out a year before his, because they broke the ice a bit. People are, for the most part, more comfortable with the idea of a chameleon morph.

Heika

 

[PEPPERQUILL1]

Yes some people like them some people don't.Thats it end of story.Their are a few generations of them and none have any health problems what so ever.I am not claiming anything I am telling you from my experience, ask Mike or anyone else if they have had any problems.Honestly I have one male which I am keeping, the others on the website or no longer available.I am in the middle of redoing the website.I don't really have a vested interest in these yeah their cool but that's about it.I am surprised at the reaction people are having just because something is different.We'll let Mike speak for himself.Would I do the same?Well theirs no negative effects so yes if I got them again I would sell them.If I found out that their is by some chance a health problem no I wouldn't sell them.Are you calling me a liar?I don't think you should be making accusations about the way I would conduct business.

 

[Heika]

Are you calling me a liar?I don't think you should be making accusations about the way I would conduct business.

Hmm.. never saw me say "liar." I do remember when these animals first came out and you said that they weren't inbred, and that they were perfectly healthy. I think we can all pretty conclusively say that, yes, of course they were inbred to retain those patches, and there was even less research into them then than there is now. How did you know they were healthy? Were you misinformed?

Since you say there are a few generations.. let's be specific. How many are a few? A few as in... 3? Veileds can breed at 6 months.. so, what, the oldest of them is how old? A year and a half, two years? Maybe 3 years? That isn't conclusive evidence to me that there aren't health problems that won't be revealed with time. Tell me in 7 or 8 years that they are completely healthy, and I might start to believe you know what you are talking about. Right now, you are still guessing and trying to convince the rest of the world you are right when you simply don't know one way or the other.

Heika

 

[TylerStewart]

But, I have yet to see any conclusive evidence that translucents can be kept just like a regular veiled without any health consequences. Yet again, you are making that claim when there just isn't enough evidence to say that.

Since you say there are a few generations.. let's be specific. How many are a few? A few as in... 3? Veileds can breed at 6 months.. so, what, the oldest of them is how old? A year and a half, two years? Maybe 3 years? That isn't conclusive evidence to me that there aren't health problems that won't be revealed with time. Tell me in 7 or 8 years that they are completely healthy, and I might start to believe you know what you are talking about.
Heika

I'm curious what types of evidence you expect to see without having any in your posession... Do you need a written letter from someone that has seen it first hand? Or should we have a professor write it up? Maybe a clean fecal and a thumbs up from a vet would heal the world? I can try to get it on Fox News, but I think Bill O Reilly has bigger fish to fry.

If you want 7 or 8 years of good health, talk to the people in Europe that have been doing them for that long... Just because they arrived in the US +/-18 months ago doesn't mean the generations started at that point.

You're into redheads. I get it.... You love beautiful women. Good for you!

What's not to love?

 

[PEPPERQUILL1]

Well it seemed like you were trying to say that.I don't have any for sale at this time as my website is still being updated, theirfore I am not trying to defend my product.Like Tyler said I don't know what you want to prove their healthy.I am not trying to prove anyone to anything, some people can't understand so I am trying to tell them.If you want to buy one you can see for yourself what health defects it has, if you don't want to try it for yourself stop assuming what you think because its not right.

 

[Heika]

I'm curious what types of evidence you expect to see without having any in your posession... Do you need a written letter from someone that has seen it first hand? Or should we have a professor write it up? Maybe a clean fecal and a thumbs up from a vet would heal the world? I can try to get it on Fox News, but I think Bill O Reilly has bigger fish to fry.

If you want 7 or 8 years of good health, talk to the people in Europe that have been doing them for that long... Just because they arrived in the US +/-18 months ago doesn't mean the generations started at that point.

Nope, don't need that.. but I do think the blanket statement of.. it's all healthy and hunky dory when the animal hasn't been kept in the US or in Europe for very long is a bit much. Clean fecal, no. Please correct me if I am wrong.. it is my belief that the animals that came to the US were F2's and F3's. I don't think it takes veileds 7 or 8 years to reach the F3 stage, or maybe I am doing the math wrong. Do I need to purchase one to know that caution is advisable? Do I need to jump off a bridge to know that it will hurt when I hit the water? Luckily, I know how to read and comprehend written language, and I can make informed decisions through research without actually having to jump off that bridge.

By looking back in the forum, it looks like it is definately minus 18 months. Holland put ads out for them less than 9 months ago. I am surprised you are so willing to endorse this animal after such a short length of time.

Believe it or not, I am not completely against them. However, giving them a clean bill of health this early in the game is misleading. The chameleons are expensive, and no guarantee can be given in regards to this morph about their long term health, because no one has kept them long term yet.

Well it seemed like you were trying to say that.I don't have any for sale at this time as my website is still being updated, theirfore I am not trying to defend my product.Like Tyler said I don't know what you want to prove their healthy.I am not trying to prove anyone to anything, some people can't understand so I am trying to tell them.If you want to buy one you can see for yourself what health defects it has, if you don't want to try it for yourself stop assuming what you think because its not right.

I understand that you are trying to paint a rosy picture about these animals, and it is you who is assuming that they are completely healthy when there hasn't been enough research to prove that yet.