Vieled moprhs?

[PEPPERQUILL1]

You need to get your facts strait before posting.Obviously you don't know anything about them and again you are assuming.They have been in Europe for 6-7 years.This is not f3 maybe f3 in the US.I am not painting a rosy picture the animals are fine and not diseased thats it I don't have to paint a picture, you just can't understand that they are healthy, thats all.Ant they were in the US before I posted my adds it was longer then 9 months.

 

[Heika]

You need to get your facts strait before posting.Obviously you don't know anything about them and again you are assuming.They have been in Europe for 6-7 years.This is not f3 maybe f3 in the US.I am not painting a rosy picture the animals are fine and not diseased thats it I don't have to paint a picture, you just can't understand that they are healthy, thats all.Ant they were in the US before I posted my adds it was longer then 9 months.

Huh.. I wonder where I got the idea that they were f3s... maybe from you? A direct quote of you from an 8/22/06 post on this forum:

Hi,
Just noticed this post and read some of the replys.This is not a genetic defect and this trait is 100% dominant.These are f3 from generations alike it.UV does not effect them in any way the breeders use UV on them they are just like a normaly chameleons just different colors.They are breed fequently in Europe with no problems.If you dont like them thats your opinion.

Now, please. Who hasn't got their facts straight? Is this a case of revisionist history? You seem to regularly contradict yourself, and I am sick of this squabbling. You will conveniently find facts to support your reasoning, because you simply don't want to admit that there is reason to be concerned about the health of these animals.

And, how long have they been in the country? They were first advertised by a seller in the UK in January 06.. I think it takes 6 months or so to square up paperwork for importing chameleons into this country, right? So, as a direct question Holland.. when did the chameleons enter the country? Do you know, or is this one of those shaky facts that might have room for interpretation or adjustment?

Heika

 

[Crazy Chams]

Veiled Morph

Ok I've Watched This Thread, And I Think Its Gone Far Enough. It Never Seems To Amaze Me How People Can Just Throw Everything Out Of Wack. Now Im Know Chameleon Expert Or Anything I Dont Claim I Know It All. But Those Veileds Yes Are Nice Along With The Transluscents And So On, But In Order To Get Morphs Of Some Kind There Has To Be Some Kind Of In Breeding Some Where Down The Line. Inbreeding May Not Have Any Affects Right Away But Again Im Sure It Weakins The Animals Immune System Or Something In The Animal Is Weakins. So I Hope This Helps Some One In There Arguement Or Should I Say Bickering Match. Relax These Are Just Chameleons Were Not Talking Humans And For Whoever Compared Humans To Chameleons That Was The Most Rediculous Comparison I Have Ever Seen.

 

[PEPPERQUILL1]

The breeder told me these individuals I got were f3's that doesent mean their arent other generations.If you want to be concerned about the health thats fine go for it, i really don't care what you want to believe.That was different seller in a differnt country, I am not aware of the date of importation as I didn't import them, and paperwork doesen't take 6 months for cb animals.I could contact the breeder about that.

 

[TreelionsUK]

PEOPLE,relax please,
Think these yemens will be around for along time now Its a case of "whatever floats your boat" and looking at this thread it looks like most people like them,But honestly do they really look more attractive then the way nature intended??? i dont think so, they look like they have been sprayed and the paint is flaking away to reveal an evil black under coat,
But its all swings and roundabouts here.
Time will tell if the animals are any weaker than "normals"and if any reproduction issues are present.
I hope they dont do well,i really dont like them and really belive this to be a mutation or defect BUT this is my opinion!
I am glad no one else gets tylers red head idea (soz tyler )
But tyler She is SWEET!! fairplay mate thats a real hunny
I hope we never let animals like this outshine Natures design

 

[Jordan]

I understand Tyler's analogy. I would say it is relevant. Just getting pissed because he choose not to write a huge long paragraph to make it "word friendly" is no reason to disregard it.

 

[TylerStewart]

In the meantime, the hostility and continued posturing in this thread isn't helping anyone's position. Heika

I don't see the hostility.... I've laughed harder at this thread than I have at any other threads in a long time. I think the only one getting "hostile" or losing sleep at night is you.

Do I need to jump off a bridge to know that it will hurt when I hit the water?

Depends how high the bridge is.... Sometimes, that would be fun.

 

[FaunaBgirl]

You're into redheads. I get it.... You love beautiful women. Good for you! This thread is sounding more like something that belongs on Dr. Phil or Oprah not for the chameleon forums. Life Struggles......Chameleons People!

YEP you got it! A psych study, entitled people with A social pets. lol
Now.... if this is a vote on the black patterned chameleons, I would like to mention that the majority attraction to them has to do with the coloration variations. As I get older and my eyesight gets "dimmer" I like the brighter colors. So my vote is away from the dark and into the light. How's that for a psych statement? lol Or was that spiritual? Hm?

 

[Heika]

I don't see the hostility.... I've laughed harder at this thread than I have at any other threads in a long time. I think the only one getting "hostile" or losing sleep at night is you.

Ha! I am glad that this thread is amusing to you. I am definately not losing sleep over this.. it is minor in the larger scheme of things.

Remind me to find you a high bridge to jump off of in Anaheim in September..

 

[TylerStewart]

Remind me to find you a high bridge to jump off of in Anaheim in September..

Are you gonna be there? I'll buy you dinner as long as you don't mind eating with a redhead.

 

[Heika]

Are you gonna be there? I'll buy you dinner as long as you don't mind eating with a redhead.

Hotel room booked, time off scheduled at work, chameleon care covered, a couple other things I do everyday covered.. just need tickets to Disney Land now! Yeah, I will be there.

I will let you buy me dinner. Not McDonald's I hope?

 

[TylerStewart]

I will let you buy me dinner. Not McDonald's I hope?

I was thinking more along the lines of Sizzler.... Just kidding, we'll find something decent. I think Mike is paying anyways.

 

[Heika]

I was thinking more along the lines of Sizzler.... Just kidding, we'll find something decent. I think Mike is paying anyways.

Cool, steak and lobster.. must be a few of those types of places in Anaheim?

 

[kinyonga]

One question...does anyone know if the dark markings on these females make the males think that the female is already gravid, thus "prevent" mating?

 

[Chris Anderson]

I think the biggest issue with this thread is that neither side is acknowledging that they are somewhat arguing different points (current vs long term knowledge).

To start, these and the transluscents are a result of a genetic defect. The term defect has a negative connotation but all it really means is that there is some alteration in the genetic code that differs from the original and may or may not be negative. In reality, despite it's connotation, it isn't technically a negative description.

As I see it, these morphs are relatively new in captive markets, at least compared to the standard veileds (even if they have been bred for 7 or so years in Europe in limited numbers). While thus far, they have shown limited to no health impact in captivity (I say "limited to no" in order to cover any uncertainty, not to imply known issues) based on those kept, bred and raised in captivity, they are still knew in captivity compared to more understood species, morphs, locales, etc. Every year we learn things about even those species and morphs that have been breed extensively in captivity for years in large numbers. I think its clear that the current indication is that based on the limited sample size we have thus far, there is little indication of serious health issue with this and the translucent morphs. There is a definite possibility that this is indicative of a true, overall trend for the morphs BUT with a limited sample size and a comparison to similar defects in other animals and issues associated with them, it is still hard to make a concrete statement that they experience no reduced fitness as a result of this defect.

As an example of what I am referring to, F. pardalis was bred in captivity for generations before it was documented that there was reduced fitness in the offspring of hybrid locales. Similarly, Ch. calyptratus was bred for generations before they were widely acknowledged as being prone to MBD with what we now recognize as improper husbandry (although at the time, it wasn't necessarily considered as obviously improper). Similarly, while current indications do not point toward notable issues, comparison to similar defects in other animals would indicate that as our sample size increases, we could note some form of reduced fitness under captive conditions in offspring of these morphs.

So what should we all take from this, as responsible breeders, keepers and enthusiasts? I think we should all keep an open mind but at the same time, be careful. Those working with the morph should make an effort to strengthen the bloodlines (which I know FL Chams has been making an effort to do). Those selling the morph should discuss with their buyers responsible breeding and management practices with the morph as well as talk to them about possible concerns with the morph, even if current indications don't seem to indicate problems. Those of us not working with them and speaking to others inquiring about them should keep an open mind too and provide a complete story about them with as little bias as possible.

In my opinion, these morphs are extremely interesting. Attractive or not, the translucent, if not this morph as well, gained their genetic state in the wild. While selective breeding is artificial, I would say that they still warrant investigation and attention in breeding efforts. If done correctly and if effort is made to investigate potential health and fitness concerns, these morphs could potentially do very well in captivity and could result in completely healthy offspring. Obviously, if handled incorrectly, it could be very bad for the animals. I'm glad that those I know of working with the translucents in the US are making an effort to do it right and I hope this morph is no different.

Time to get off my soap box and await the backlash of my post.

Chris

PS: Mike, are you going to fly me out to the CA show in Sept too so I can come hang out?

 

[FL Chams]

What am I the Trump of Chameleons! Everyone wants plane tickets and meals.

What the heck I'm in.

Nice post by the way

 

[Brad]

Great post Chris
It was well written and did an excellent job at explaining the situation. Except for an opinion you made in the last paragraph, I generally agree with what you said.

In my opinion, these morphs are extremely interesting. Attractive or not, the translucent, if not this morph as well, gained their genetic state in the wild. While selective breeding is artificial, I would say that they still warrant investigation and attention in breeding efforts.

This is where our opinions begin to differ. I know I am in the minority, but I simply prefer true representations of populations found in the wild. I don't understand the need for the breeding efforts you mention above. There are so many beautiful and interesting chameleon species in nature that we don't know much about. I would much rather see someone putting their efforts into those species than into these manufactured morphs. This is just an opinion.



Mike: How about some first class tickets for me and a guest

 

[TylerStewart]

Mike: How about some first class tickets for me and a guest

The reason I suggested Mike was buying meals was because I was under the impression that I was supplying his flight. I guess if he's volunteered to take care of that for me, maybe your request will work....

Nevermind, I flew myself to Daytona, he owes me now.

 

[linnfaries]

Ahem.........

Okay,

I am new here. I was actually looking for a few different varieties of Chams other than the ones I have. I am no breeder, just an admirer of nature and all of it's bounty and splendors. I found this post. This is an interesting thread to say the least.

Someone introduces a Cham that is "different", and automatically some will jump to conclusions on either side of the discussion. For those who say there is no proof that health issues are not causing the colorations, the opposite is true as well (sorry for the double negative). There is no evidence that it IS a health issue at this point. At least none presented on this forum that I have seen. All of this debate is speculative at best.

The definition of disease leaves one to wonder:

" 1. a disordered or incorrectly functioning organ, part, structure, or system of the body resulting from the effect of genetic or developmental errors, infection, poisons, nutritional deficiency or imbalance, toxicity, or unfavorable environmental factors; illness; sickness; ailment.
2. any abnormal condition in a plant that interferes with its vital physiological processes, caused by pathogenic microorganisms, parasites, unfavorable environmental, genetic, or nutritional factors, etc.
3. any harmful, depraved, or morbid condition, as of the mind or society: His fascination with executions is a disease.
4. decomposition of a material under special circumstances: tin disease. "

Oddly enough, when the word disease first appeared in text, it's definition was merely "discomfort". Lots of things are labeled disorders/diseases these days by genetic experts but most often not. They are usually diagnosed by people like family doctors, vets, school nurses, teachers, and people who are simply like you and I and they take that to some doc who writes them a prescription for something without any tests. ADD/ADHD being a very GOOD example (since we are using human references on this thread). There is still so little actually known about most genetic disorders. Even the most experienced breeder is not a Geneticist by experience alone. Herpatology is such a vast area of study and exploration and most vets know very little about Herps. Let's not forget that they practice/study on humans for much of their schooling. So even they don't know everything.

We see so many Cham hybrids out there that are varied with dark shades of purple and almost black trim around Veiled blues and greens for sure. Perhaps this is a true purple and not black, but to the eye it appears so. I can not judge by pictures and I am no expert. Some flowers are labeled blue when in fact they are violet. Very few are true blue. I am not sure about these mysterious "black" spots, but it is certainly interesting. Since the young were born with it according to the original poster, and may not have been exposed to light burns. It could be just a color trait, or maybe a disease.... it is most likely genetic. But I could be totally wrong and I am certainly no expert on this. Burn marks are not inherited as far as I know. I don't think even a Vet should attempt to diagnose anything over the internet hundreds or thousands of miles from the supposed animals in question. Maybe these are birth marks if you will. Fascinating, really.

Fact: There was a time when all humans were one color too.

Not trying to voice an approval or disapproval. Please do not read anything into my post. I mean no insult or harm to anyone and I only want the best for all animals involved.

-Bobbi

 

[Chris Anderson]

Bobbi,

Umm....I have no idea what you were getting at in your post, maybe you can clarify? The patterning and coloration we are seeing in this morph as well as the other morph we are discussing (translucents) are known to be genetic. The concerns that are being mentioned are theoretical skin damage and related issues (UVB/Calcium metabolism pathways) to areas with unusual pigment presence (both increased to complete absence) which is what this genetic variation causes. I guess I don't know what you are trying to say?

Chris