Upgrading to larger vivarium!

lthrbecks

Member
I'm thinking ahead about an upgrade for my juvenile chameleon. Currently, he's in a 45x45x60 cm set up. I'm unsure if the size I have in mind, will be sufficient for his needs as an adult. It's the same length 45cm and depth 45cm but it's 90cm tall. An increase of 30cm.

Will this extra height of 30cm be suffice. I'm limited to retain the length and depth at 45cm each.

Any advice on the above matter would be much appreciated folks. Thanks
 

lthrbecks

Member
Thank you for your quick reply. I've a male, but I'm afraid I'll have to go by the female size vivarium unfortunately, due to room constraints in bedroom.
 

Beman

Chameleon Enthusiast
That is very small for a male Veiled. You may have to move the enclosure to another room. Ideally if your doing the glass enclosures they need to be in the
Natural Terrarium Large/X-Tall

90 x 45 x 90 cm / 36” x 18” x 36” (WxDxH)
This size in the glass enclosure is the minimum for a Male. However I would hesitate to put a female in anything smaller then this as well.
He needs the width to counter act the smaller dimensions. At full grown they can reach lengths of 22 inches tip of nose to end of tail. In the smaller enclosures this literally leaves them very little room to move around. Veileds can also get very cage aggressive. You add to this an enclosure that is too small you are just looking for issues IMO.
 

CasqueAbove

Avid Member
It is a touch on the small size, but as @NashansCamos mentioned with free range it will be fine.

I have thought of a set up like this for people like you that have space constraints. Here are some of my observations ant thoughts.

As back ground on this I have very large open setups. The animals can leave the enclosure if they so choose. I did this so I could as best as possible observe their behavior as it would be in nature. (at least as close as I can come in my house)

Since it is a male, I actually think it may make it a little easier. Here's why, my female seems more territory oriented in that she prefers to stay in her given area. Her enclosure is about 6ft x 6ft x 3ft, and though her preferd spot has changed, it still only occupies about the size you are stating. Thought this is open area, so it is a bit different.

So with the male. He spends usually 1 to 3 days just chillin. moves around some mostly looking for food or a good spot. But on the other days he is ready to explore.

Given this behavior, if he gets plenty of explore time.

The next aspect would be , Don't over "decorate" the cage. Though it often looks quite beautiful, it is not where they choose to be. Again from my observations they do not like the areas thick with branches. They both prefer to actually sit in the more open areas. For hiding, both again if given the option do not hide in the thick of the leaves but rather behind them. They both have "open" space behind the thick parts of the leaves.

Utilizing this, if I were going to set up a smaller enclosure.
1) No bushy plants , this is wasted space. You definitely want plants though, pathos is a good choice, but the get eaten. "Palm" type plants are good as they do not seem to get eaten as much.
2) For a large male in a smaller cage I would have very few branches. Realize they can easily stretch their body length to the next branch.
3) I would add a large plant out side the cage arranged in such a way as to partaialy "hide the cage. This will add to his hiding area.
4) Open his cage frequently and let him explore.
5) With the exploration it will be important that you make sure he is still getting enough time under UV and in proper humidity for his species.
 

Beman

Chameleon Enthusiast
Ok I have to ask.... Since when did it become acceptable to start putting Males in small enclosures? I don't understand this. And I do not understand recommending it to others. Go into ANY forum and they will tell you it is not ok.

The OP currently has a Male Veiled in a 18x18x24 and is talking about putting him into an 18x18x36..... Why is this now considered ok to do? When the minimum screen requirements for Males is 2x2x4. I understand the glass enclosures come smaller then standard. But when utilizing glass you then have to account for it and give them the most space you can which is the Large XTall 90 x 45 x 90 cm / 36” x 18” x 36” (WxDxH)

Also taking into account your losing height because your making it Bio Active....

Seems as though people are starting to do and recommend what is convenient rather then what is in the best interest of the animal. They are not geckos... They are arboreal lizards that live in trees and y'all thinking a tiny cage is suitable because of convenience is so frustrating to me.
 
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CasqueAbove

Avid Member
Ok I have to ask.... Since when did it become acceptable to start putting Males in small enclosures? I don't understand this. And I do not understand recommending it to others. Go into ANY forum and they will tell you it is not ok.

The OP currently has a Male Veiled in a 18x18x24 and is talking about putting him into an 18x18x36..... Why is this now considered ok to do. When the minimum screen requirements for Males is 2x2x4. I understand the glass enclosures come smaller then standard. But when utilizing glass you then have to account for it and give them the most space you can which is the Large XTall 90 x 45 x 90 cm / 36” x 18” x 36” (WxDxH)

Also taking into account your losing height because your making it Bio Active....

Seems as though people are starting to do and recommend what is convenient rather then what is in the best interest of the animal. They are not geckos... They are arboreal lizards that live in trees and yall thinking a tiny cage is suitable because of convenience is so frustrating to me.
You just did not read. It is too small. If done concessions will need to be made, but not on the part of the animal, on the part of the human.

I said it can be done, but not recommended, and will make it far more difficult on the keeper as constant attention must be taken too ensure the health of the animal. It will require more attention than normal because you will need to be prepare to let him out daily, while making sure the proper requirements are met.

Ok I have to ask.... Since when did it become acceptable to start putting Males in small enclosures?

IT DID NOT. The set up referred too would expand out side the cage. The cage would be for sleeping.

I don't understand this. And I do not understand recommending it to others.
NOR WOULD I. I said doable if no other choice. It is a pain and takes constant care far more that a standard size cage.
by the way 2x2x4 Is wrong for a male IMHO as well and I would take the same steps in this size cage as well.

Seems as though people are starting to do and recommend what is convenient rather then what is in the best interest of the animal.
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING CONVENT ABOUT KEEPING THIS WAY. MUCH HARDER . but still do able. You just have to change your mind set on what constitutes the "cage" Is it the box we put them in or the room the "cage" is in.

The setup I describe would end up being larger than 2x2x4 , The draw back is you have to but in more work effort and preparation.
 

Beman

Chameleon Enthusiast
You just did not read. It is too small. If done concessions will need to be made, but not on the part of the animal, on the part of the human.

I said it can be done, but not recommended, and will make it far more difficult on the keeper as constant attention must be taken too ensure the health of the animal. It will require more attention than normal because you will need to be prepare to let him out daily, while making sure the proper requirements are met.

Ok I have to ask.... Since when did it become acceptable to start putting Males in small enclosures?

IT DID NOT. The set up referred too would expand out side the cage. The cage would be for sleeping.

I don't understand this. And I do not understand recommending it to others.
NOR WOULD I. I said doable if no other choice. It is a pain and takes constant care far more that a standard size cage.
by the way 2x2x4 Is wrong for a male IMHO as well and I would take the same steps in this size cage as well.

Seems as though people are starting to do and recommend what is convenient rather then what is in the best interest of the animal.
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING CONVENT ABOUT KEEPING THIS WAY. MUCH HARDER . but still do able. You just have to change your mind set on what constitutes the "cage" Is it the box we put them in or the room the "cage" is in.

The setup I describe would end up being larger than 2x2x4 , The draw back is you have to but in more work effort and preparation.
There was a time in this forum when it simply was not considered acceptable. This is why I get frustrated... Confining these animals to tiny cages is horrific to me.

I do not even use the standard size 2x2x4. Both of mine are larger. One being 6 inches wider and one being a full 2 ft wider. I have a large outdoor enclosure and a small free range and never would I consider it ok to have their main cage be that small. It is really quite sad to me. Instead of accommodating for them people are making them fit the limits of their lives. I do not think it is fair to the chameleon.

Both of you are assuming that the OP will do a proper free range. If they have space limitations in the room and have the cham in a window sill. We are then assuming that they will make that a correct set up. I do not think this is likely by what they have said. But instead people read what they want to and will take it as it is ok for them to have a tiny enclosure and then just put the cham in the window sill.

This is where I get frustrated...

And when I say convenient I am not meaning in the way you are. I am meaning taking the route that is easy on the pocket or fits their size limitations.
 

NashansCamos

Avid Member
There was a time in this forum when it simply was not considered acceptable. This is why I get frustrated... Confining these animals to tiny cages is horrific to me.

I do not even use the standard size 2x2x4. Both of mine are larger. One being 6 inches wider and one being a full 2 ft wider. I have a large outdoor enclosure and a small free range and never would I consider it ok to have their main cage be that small. It is really quite sad to me. Instead of accommodating for them people are making them fit the limits of their lives. I do not think it is fair to the chameleon.

Both of you are assuming that the OP will do a proper free range. If they have space limitations in the room and have the cham in a window sill. We are then assuming that they will make that a correct set up. I do not think this is likely by what they have said. But instead people read what they want to and will take it as it is ok for them to have a tiny enclosure and then just put the cham in the window sill.

This is where I get frustrated...

And when I say convenient I am not meaning in the way you are. I am meaning taking the route that is easy on the pocket or fits their size limitations.
Well you misunderstood ME, and I also misunderstood @lthrbecks, who I thought had his cham in an 18x18x36 but actually has him in a 18x18x24. I was saying that FOR THE MOMENT(because his cham is a juvenile) his cage is fine but once he gets to an adult you'll need to upgrade him to a 2x2x4.

now I know that the op actuallty currently has his cham in a tiny enclosure.

@lthrbecks there's no use buying an 18x18x36 because that is still very small for a male. I just can't imagine an adult male in a 18x18x36 that's STILL TOO SMALL.
If you can't buy a 2x2x4 then rehome him because an adult male in an 18x18x36(45x45x90) ..... not good at all.
 

CasqueAbove

Avid Member
I will agree with
There was a time in this forum when it simply was not considered acceptable. This is why I get frustrated... Confining these animals to tiny cages is horrific to me.

I do not even use the standard size 2x2x4. Both of mine are larger. One being 6 inches wider and one being a full 2 ft wider. I have a large outdoor enclosure and a small free range and never would I consider it ok to have their main cage be that small. It is really quite sad to me. Instead of accommodating for them people are making them fit the limits of their lives. I do not think it is fair to the chameleon.

Both of you are assuming that the OP will do a proper free range. If they have space limitations in the room and have the cham in a window sill. We are then assuming that they will make that a correct set up. I do not think this is likely by what they have said. But instead people read what they want to and will take it as it is ok for them to have a tiny enclosure and then just put the cham in the window sill.

This is where I get frustrated...

And when I say convenient I am not meaning in the way you are. I am meaning taking the route that is easy on the pocket or fits their size limitations.
I Understand your point. But if we can not assume people will read and do all the necessary steps then why bother to say anything ?

I simply try to assume the best in people, that they will take all things into account and do what is best for the animal.

Try assuming you are not the only great one. Didn't you just suffer a burn? I believe that if people have the desire they will do right and are more than capable of reading and understanding.
 

Beman

Chameleon Enthusiast
I will agree with


I Understand your point. But if we can not assume people will read and do all the necessary steps then why bother to say anything ?

I simply try to assume the best in people, that they will take all things into account and do what is best for the animal.

Try assuming you are not the only great one. Didn't you just suffer a burn? I believe that if people have the desire they will do right and are more than capable of reading and understanding.
:LOL: no I have never had any burn issues or bird attack issues or losing chams outside issues.... I do not consider myself great. But I do have a very clear understanding of basic husbandry.

Your telling the OP to have a large free range and that the small cage will work. They said clearly they have no room for even a large cage. This is where the feedback does not line up with what the OP is already saying. They say they can not provide the space. SO what would make you think they can then do a free range of the size your talking about?

How many times have you seen in threads when proper feedback was given and the OP decides to ignore aspects? Then pops back up with a sick cham or MBD? You have not been in the forum that long so maybe you just have not seen what I have. But giving people OPTIONS outside the standard recommendations does not always work out well for the chameleon.
 

CasqueAbove

Avid Member
:LOL: no I have never had any burn issues or bird attack issues or losing chams outside issues.... I do not consider myself great. But I do have a very clear understanding of basic husbandry.

Your telling the OP to have a large free range and that the small cage will work. They said clearly they have no room for even a large cage. This is where the feedback does not line up with what the OP is already saying. They say they can not provide the space. SO what would make you think they can then do a free range of the size your talking about?

How many times have you seen in threads when proper feedback was given and the OP decides to ignore aspects? Then pops back up with a sick cham or MBD? You have not been in the forum that long so maybe you just have not seen what I have. But giving people OPTIONS outside the standard recommendations does not always work out well for the chameleon.
People do read what they want far too often, but we always assume the worst.

And I do not know what their space is. It may not have room on the floor, but what if they can provide a hanging or wall mounted free range.

It is in no way a pass on small cages. As I mentioned it is more difficult. For one yes it requires you to be home and able to keep an eye on him. Not all can provide this.
What ever the set up all needs must be met.

On this: How many times have you seen in threads when proper feedback was given and the OP decides to ignore aspects? Then pops back up with a sick cham or MBD?

I have been in the hobby for over 40 years. I have seen all the right things done, and still problems arise. This is because they are sensitive animals. The fact is most will fail to keep up with the long term care, and this is sad. This is not caused by somebody saying something in a forum. Further if they are just going to read what they want to hear, none of it maters anyway.

You suggestion is that we should never learn? or thing out side the box ? If I followed all the "Standard advice here" I would likely be off, as there are many small aspects unaccounted for.

I did not focus on how to keep them in a cage, but how they live in the wild. Yes there are risks, (inside cat v outside cat). But I can not learn if I only follow somebody's care sheet. particularly when the did not line up with the natural data I was seeing.

I never suggest smaller, but rather how to make smaller bigger. No it is not easy, but say a student living in a i bedroom studio, where they spend most of their day studding, and the room is small enough to secure it can be done.

How long have you kept Chams, and Herps ?
 

NashansCamos

Avid Member
90x45x60 would this be a suitable adult size? I thought the 90cm was the height, but it's the width. I thought a chameleon would prefer to climb up higher rather than move across his viv.
no height is much more important than width; even a 90cm tall cage is not enough for a male. he needs at least 122cm(4ft)
 

CasqueAbove

Avid Member
90x45x60 would this be a suitable adult size? I thought the 90cm was the height, but it's the width. I thought a chameleon would prefer to climb up higher rather than move across his viv.
This is what I would get, if money is an issue, as it can be for me at times. If you have the cash DragonStrand is the best Cham cages I have ever found on the market. Not just cuz hi is on this site either. I have done tons of research on available cages.
 
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