Tounge problem

[tamarasimovic]

Hey,

Since i am now out of ideas of what to do with my little boy (panther chameleon) i hope you guys can help. He is now around 7 months old.

For the past 10-14 days he has been having trouble shooting his tounge and it has been getting worse. I have now been to the vet twice but he has no more ideas on what it could be. The first time he checked his tounge for possible injuries, but found none. We checked for infections but found none. He gave him an anti pain injection just in case. Things did not get better. At first he just couldn't shoot as far, but now he has trouble eating crickets that are 2centimeters away.

It seems as if his tounge just isn't shooting out, but also isn't as sticky as it should be.

Since it is not trauma or an infection i now suspect vitamin inbalance.

Is it possible that i have been over suplementing him and that this is now the problem?

By my vets advice i use Nekton MSA and Nekton rep color. I use Nekton MSA about twice a week and Nekton rep color about once a week. I used the same amount of vitamins in my older chams and they are great. Is it possible that this is too much or too little for him?

As lighting goes, i use Exo terra 5.0 and 2.0.

I saw a post here suggesting i use vitamin B complex to try to fix the issue and i started giving him vitamin B complex dissolved in water yesterday.

He mostly eats crickets which i gutload with dandelion greens, apples, some carrots, ...

Besides the tounge issue he is acting normally, climbs all the time, is not dehydrathed and has appetite.

Please give me ideas on what it could be, since my vet says he everything seems to be okay and we have no more ideas on what to check.

 

[shmeenakoz]

Did you have blood work done? I just had this done myself for my cham who is having the same issue. I was told to cut back on calcium since it was slightly elevated. Other than that we found no other causes too.

 

[tamarasimovic]

Not yet, but i plan on going back on monday. Did the tounge problem resolve itself after you cut back on the calcium?

I am just super scared, because i read that some chameleons may swallow their tounge because of similar problems. The vet is now closed till monday and i don't really know what to do.

 

[shmeenakoz]

It hasn't resolved yet since I just went to the vet Wednesday but I will keep his condition posted. I will say though that he used his tongue "more", as in he actually shot it after a day of anti-inflammatory meds. Still missed but it was an improvement. Good luck and I hope the blood work can give you another clue. Keep us posted.

 

[tamarasimovic]

Thanks, and good luck to you too! Keep me updated on how your cham is doing

 

[Lovereps]

Does your chameleon have a basking light to allow him to warm himself and digest his food?

Does he have a dripper and is he misted regularly?

Is his environment humid enough?

Did you use the same exact supplements for your older chams or just the same number of times per week supplementing but with different supplements?

You may find this article to be of particular interest, as it reports an analysis of supplements done by a vet which showed Nekton Rep, despite listing a guaranteed calcium % to be completely lacking in calcium
http://www.anapsid.org/uvd3.html
Perhaps this is why the Nekton Rep label no longer guarantees any amount of calcium.

Chameleons can be very sensitive to overdoses of vitamin D3, which is present in both supplements.
They can also be harmed by excessive vitamin A and the nutrient analyses of your supplements indicate a HUGE amount of vitamin A when compared to other reptile supplements sold in the US and Europe.

Looking at the nutrients guaranteed, it makes me wonder if the supplements are part of your cham's tongue problem.

Assuming that this is a safe and good amount to give chams, the average calcium with D3 supplement in the US contains 20,000 IU/kg of D3 and it is recommended that you only apply this to feeders 2x a month.
Nekton MSA and Nekton Rep Color each contain 10,000 IU/kg of D3 .
If the chameleonforums D3 "dosage" is both safe and effective, then you're now giving your cham 75% of an entire month's dose D3 each week. (3x the D3 every month)

It is not known exactly how much D3 is unsafe for chameleons nor is it known exactly how much D3 is required by indoor chameleons.

It is known that too much D3 will calcify soft tissues, blood vessels and internal organs (lungs, heart, kidneys, etc.)

I'm very disappointed to see that the Nekton Rep guaranteed analysis, which I had used many years ago for Senegals, does not contain minerals and the analysis shown for Nekton MSA is lacking in most vitamins.


If your cham was mine, I would obtain a calcium supplement which contains no phosphorus and no D3, and use that at most feedings and find a multivitamin/mineral supplement with a reasonable amounts of both D3 and a reasonable amount of vitamin A to use 2x a month. OR the plain calcium, plus a calcium with D3 and a multivitamin/mineral supplement--paying close attention to the amounts of vitamins and minerals they contain.
This will lower the D3 and vitamin A amounts that he receives.

The nutritional analyses I found for your 2 supplements is:
Nekton MSA
Guaranteed Analysis per 1000g: Moisture less than 5%. Vitamin D3 10,000 I.U., Minimum: Ca 23.7%; P 17.4%; Mg 0.001%; Fe 3,000 mg; Zn 1,255 mg; Mn 1,255 mg; Cu 250 mg; I 100 mg; Co 40 mg.

Nekton Rep Color (notice there is no guaranteed calcium amount)
Guaranteed Analysis per 1000g: Vitamin A 6,600,00 I.U., vitamin D3 10,000 I.U., DL-alpha-tocopherol acetate 6,665 mg, thiamine 670 mg, riboflavin 1,680 mg, d-pantothenic acid 3,330 mg, niacinamide 10,000 mg, vitamin B6 670 mg, folic acid 185 mg, vitamin B12 10,000 ug, ascorbic acid 16,670 mg, menadione 1,360 mg.

(Nekton Rep is identical, but eliminates the carotenoids which are used to enhance red colors in birds and reptiles.)


I was first wondering whether or not the vitamin A is a typographical error (listed here http://www.arcatapet.com/item.cfm?cat=13324 )
The fact that several pages list the same number and the fact that it was listed on another website leads me to believe that it is correct---and it is an extremely high amount at 6,600 IU per gram, compared to other supplements with 47 - 243 IU per gram in the chart linked below.

The viamin A may also be a part of your cham's troubles.

Here is a chart comparing the vitamin A in a number of reptile supplements http://www.arrowheadreptilerescue.org/education/supplementchart.html

You have little to lose by trying a set of different supplements, as it will certainly cost less than a vet visit and making these changes may restore function to your cham's tongue.

 

[tamarasimovic]

Lovereps, thanks so much for this!

Yes he has a basking light and i have an automatic mister. The humidity is naturaly around 60% here where i live, so after mistings his humidity is even higher.

Yes, i used the exact same suplements, but my other chams were all older when i got them, so maybe that's why there were no issues?

I will most deifnetly change the supplements. Do you have any suggestions on what supplements i can buy in Europe that are good? I already looked at Rep cal but they don't deliver to where i live. Nekton and Exo terra are pretty much the only things available in my country.

So for a while i should probably cut all D3 and vitamin A right?

What about vitamin B complex, should i keep giving him that?

Thanks again this was SUPER helpful!!!!!

 

[Lovereps]

You're welcome. I'm glad to be able to help.

I wish I could tell you the exact deficiency and exactly how to correct it but nutrition is all about balance.
If you give too much of 1 nutrient, it may completely inactivate another.

The safest treatment is to switch the supplements to ones that seem to be more balanced and to be sure to feed a very healthy diet to the feeders, so they provide all the nutrients they can, too.

The best writeup about Tongue Troubles is by Sandrachameleon
I'll quote one part

If your chameleon began missing its prey or not shooting its tongue like it used to, getting worse gradually over time, check your gutloading and supplementation. Poor tongue control / Missing the insects can be a sign of a Calcium, magnesium, zinc, or B vitamins (B1 in particular) deficiency, and /or sometimes maybe vitamin A deficiency (usually not the sole reason), or Vitamin K deficiency, or an inbalance between Calcium, magenesium, vitamin D, and vitamin A, etc. A good supplement or improved gutload containing these nutrients in the correct balance usually helps within a week or two if vitamin deficiency is the reason, and the case is not too far gone.
Over supplementing can also be the source of issues. So if you are already provide a fair bit, consider a temporary respite.

The full post is here https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/232-tongue-troubles.html

As for the supplements available in your area, I'm not sure where in Europe you are, but I can tell you that Amazon in the UK, in France and in Germany all sell the Zoo Med supplements Reptivite and ReptiCalcium, either directly or through Amazon sellers who sometimes even offer free shipping..

If you buy these, just be careful you don't accidentally get 2 products with D3, The multivitamin supplement is made in 2 formulations; 1 without D3 and the other with D3.

I tried to look at the content of the Exo Terra supplements but the formulations may--or may not--be different for the US and Europe.

It looks like the Exo Terra multivitamin made for Europe might contain fewer ingredients but I really can't tell from their website. The EU multivitamin ingredient list includes the extremely unhelpful phrase "Contains EU permitted additives".
It does not state whether the additives are vitamins, minerals or just preservatives.

If you are in an area of Europe where temps are above 70 Fahrenheit/ 21 Celsius (but not too hot), you can safely allow your chameleon to bask outdoors in his cage for about an hour each day.
It is important to be sure he is able to bask or move into shade, as he prefers, so he can regulate his body temperature.

The UV that he gets from the sunlight will be converted by his own body into an extremely safe form of vitamin D3 AND his body will only produce as much or as little D3 as he needs.
If he gets this sunlight daily, he won't need any D3 supplement at all.


An excellent feeder diet is this one,(also by Sandrachameleon) which will pack the nutrients into the feeders your cham eats https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/75-feeder-nutrition-gutloading.html

This page explains a little more about nutrients and how too much is sometimes much worse than too little http://muchadoaboutchameleons.blogspot.com/2012/03/chameleon-physiology-supplements.html

I hope you will let us know how the supplement change helps your cham, or if it does not.

There is more chameleon knowledge shared on this forum than anywhere else that I know of.

 

[tamarasimovic]

Thanks, i will check all posts and will change my supplements. I will go to the pet store today to check if they have any other supplements, if they don't i will order online.

Yes, i would love for him to be outside, but sadly i live in Slovenia, and we currently have 15 degrees celsius, and have had such a terribly rainy summer, that they barely got any sun at all this year.

I also noticed he has not pooped since wednesday, but he usually goes every 2 days.

I hope by fixing his nutrition he gets better, i am so so so worried.

thanks!

 

[tamarasimovic]

Oh and also, the post from Sandrachameleon mentions that this gradually gets worse if the supplements are at fault. My cham lost his ability to shoot literally over night. He shot normally one day, and when i went to feed him the next day he tried shooting, but couldn't, so he climbed in the container i feed him from and started pretty much biting the crickets, stuck his tounge out just enough for the cricket to stick.

I will still change the supplements, but will also ask the vet to do some blood work.

Thanks