Things that are not helpful on the forums...

I have wrestled with the problem of curating what is presented to newcomers and presenting some consistency. The issue is valid. When someone is new they can be overwhelmed by the different answers and half of them are off base. The newcomer has no way of effectively filtering through the answers and the people who are giving the wrong answers are just repeating what they heard with the absolute best of intentions. Everyone does the best they can and if they new they could do better they would. But until they know it, they will spread what they know.


Rating competency by years in the hobby is misleading. It isn’t the number of years that you have, but what you do with those years. A person who takes all the information, tests it, challenges it, and continually places themselves in the learning mode will be further along in four years than someone who has gotten really good at doing the same thing for 20 years. The list of names of decades-old keepers that are holding the community back is longer than the list of decades-old keepers that are moving it forward. As soon as someone brags about how long they have been a keeper or breeder I am immediately unimpressed. You will notice I mention my years only in my bios to lend credibility for those who have nothing else to go off of, and whenever a breeder starts using their years as a reason why their opinion is best. Number of years is a vanity metric that is misleading, but if that is the dueling weapon of choice then I have no problem stepping into that ring. Other than that, what I say stands on its merits. Someone who has done the same thing for decades and is comfortable with those methods will resist anything new. Skeptical is appropriate, but you can easily cross into that being simply a facade for fear of change.


One approach I have implemented to control the variety of advice to beginners that has had somewhat acceptable results is to decide what the accepted baseline husbandry that will be presented to beginners will be on this platform. This would be the techniques that are in the resources section and the administration team has agreed is the method they are most comfortable and experienced with. It doesn’t have to be the latest in thought. These are beginners and, if you start them off right, they have years to establish themselves and figure out the lay of the land and then make decisions for themselves. A beginner needs it black and white and simple. The greatest gifts you can give a beginner beyond that is let them know that chameleon husbandry is dynamic and that they will hear many other ideas and approaches. Let them know that it is okay to implement the “Chameleon Forums” basic approach (whatever that ends up being) while listening to the debate of alternative methods. If the team here is most comfortable with hydration being misting during the day then that is the basics taught. While the chameleon is being hydrated by day misting the newcomer can be exposed to cup drinking, night fogging, and that Chameleon Academy chart that throws much of it together and tells you to check for the poop! I think the greatest thing we can do for newcomers is to get them started in a way that works and then encourage them to understand the pros and cons of every other approach. The goal, after getting the chameleon to a happy place, is to create a keeper that has the mind to, one day, be part of helping us figure out better ways of doing things. Too often, beginners have the sense that husbandry approaches are rites of initiation into a digital gang that they have to defend. If you create a Chameleon Forums gang than you preside over a digital echo chamber exactly like Facebook groups and Reddit where ideas that threaten the ruling party are eliminated. That said, Chameleon Forums has stood the test of time to not become this so, of all the communities, this one remains the most relevant. You can have an established beginner husbandry protocol and still encourage discussion of other approaches on other threads. As long as you make it clear this is just the starting point you never have to worry about the myriad of other opinions and approaches out there. And if you keep learning yourselves and understand all those other approaches then this forum will be the place where they start and where they come back to discuss what they have learned out there. With that kind of open mind approach to mentorship you can get them started off with a firm foundation, allow them to go into the world to explore (which they will do no matter what), and also let them know this is a safe place to bring back new ideas that will be evaluated on their merit.


The problem with this approach is enforcement. People who have memorized a set of care parameters from whatever group they “grew up” in or have their favorite husbandry ideas will be put out if they are restricted from spreading their husbandry opinion. Even when you announce what is going on. So this isn’t perfect either. But, that is why a good, unified admin team is necessary.


And, finally, the best practice is the help teach. People love helping out. With an established Chameleon Forums beginner guidelines they can memorize that and help teach with the team. And they can be encouraged to challenge the thoughts in threads outside of beginners coming to ask for help. That way the information never gets old.
 
I get what you are saying, being able to identify people who have ben here 5, 10, 20+ years would be helpful in many ways. People would certainly take their advice. I feel I've seen this topic thrown out there before....


I am glad your chameleon is living his best life!

@kinyonga I don't see how that would work anyway, no future members would be able to receive the heart award.

I definitely think new members should be able to post. When they are active on the forums, that’s how they learn. I also think new members should have a way to know if a first time chameleon owner is helping them or an experienced owner. Not all new members are first time keepers. I had experience keeping for several years before joining the forums but I didn’t help a lot at first because I felt like I was still learning new things everyday. It does seem unfair that members with 10+ years of experience are Chameleon Enthusiast just like members that’s only been on the forums a few months. If new members post a lot they can move up to Chameleon Enthusiast pretty quickly.
 
I love this community/forum. I think you guys have a nice little team put together. For the couple weeks I've been lurking the forum..I've seen a handful of experienced members CONSTANTLY helping out newbies to the best of their abilities. And a bunch of them saved me from having an absolute heartbreak of an experience. I'm VERY greatful for this forum. Though, I do see people go a little harsh on new people that don't quiet understand something yet, or that was given misleading info from the getgo. I don't think people should judge others based on how "new" they are, but on how they are willing to correct mistakes, and learn from the experience.

As for the search bar, it's a little hectic, but i found if you go on Google and type the question followed by "chameleon forum" it will show all the results from like 2010 to now.

The titles under the username help me sort of weed out who's been here longer and who hasn't. Also the badges you can earn from posting and sticking around are super cool concept.

The form is a little hard to copy and paste, and at first I was super confused as to why it was mandatory to get help..but after sticking around, I realized how much the form actually helps by keeping answers short and simple and not all over the place, very straight to the point.


Alot of hard work is behind this forum and it's soooo apriciated. Proud to be a member, and aspire to learn much more from you guys.
 
Wow! This thread has turned into a great thread..lots of well said comments!

I definitely appreciate that @Beman and @MissSkittles have taken over most of the replying to the husbandry forms! They both do excellent jobs and it has taken a lot off my back.

And @DeremensisBlue ..I will no longer mention that I kept or bred chameleons for over 30 years...although I didn't to it for any reason than to let people know that I wasn't a newbie. I definitely don't want to come off as being vane or make you unimpressed!

As @jannb said, I think new members should be able to post.

I would like to see new chameleon owners directed enough that the chameleon can do well and yet not put them in a "box" so they won't learn or try to change things for the better, as they learn and as we all learn more about chameleons.

I also hope that things like the "diet" and temperature control are explained to anyone with a veiled female BEFORE the female can become egg bound or develop follicular stasis. I hope the laying bin will continue to be mentioned as well as not watching he female when she digs.

Sure there's a lot more that I'm missing.

This forum is amazing...I hope it continues for years and continues to improve as years go by! Thanks to @Brad and the staff for working so hard to make it what it is!
 
And @DeremensisBlue ..I will no longer mention that I kept or bred chameleons for over 30 years...although I didn't to it for any reason than to let people know that I wasn't a newbie. I definitely don't want to come off as being vane or make you unimpressed!
Mentioning your years of experience can be comforting to newcomers who have no other way of knowing how else to gauge the quality of information. It is something else entirely to use it as a justification as to why the world should just accept what is being said instead of giving a reasonable explanation. I can't remember you ever saying someone should trust what you say based on when you got your first chameleon.

And no one needs to be concerned about impressing me. I care about the little things these days. I am impressed when I see someone answer the same beginner question week after week and treating each OP with kindness and respect as if they were the first ones to ask it. That is way harder than any of this other stuff.
 
Mentioning your years of experience can be comforting to newcomers who have no other way of knowing how else to gauge the quality of information. It is something else entirely to use it as a justification as to why the world should just accept what is being said instead of giving a reasonable explanation. I can't remember you ever saying someone should trust what you say based on when you got your first chameleon.

And no one needs to be concerned about impressing me. I care about the little things these days. I am impressed when I see someone answer the same beginner question week after week and treating each OP with kindness and respect as if they were the first ones to ask it. That is way harder than any of this other stuff.

I wasn't offended...I didn't think you thought that of me!
I kinda did it to see what you would say! 😉
 
I’m one of those extreme newbies, who just learned about the forums 18 months ago and started keeping chameleons for almost 2 years ago. CF has always gave that warm family feeling and I’m from across the ocean and never felt as foreigner. And I owe a lot to the forums and @DeremensisBlue Chameleon Academy, this was my starting point and without them I would have never ended where I’m now. Especially Chameleon Academy gave me food for thoughts in a positive way, in how to perfect it in my own interest of free ranging.

The thing that disturbs me is the stubbornness of so many “newbies” it’s all writing out by someone with years of proven experience, yes years of experience 😉, and yet it gets ignored and they‘ll make the same beginners mistake. This could be excepted in the early 90’s where we needed to go the library and score some books about keeping an animal, which would be a big ”effort”, but nowadays it’s just an effort for few seconds and you get the perfect information. We search for everything on the web and yet we’re not able to notice that I.e. a female needs a lay bin, please! The real problem is people wanna sit front row for a penny. They see a chameleon, want it and only search for the information suited for their budget. The rest will be ignored, just on behalf of their own well-being. We got tons of pictures with perfect setup enclosures, full with plants and branches and yet people put a chameleon in an enclosure with one branch and a bush of fake plants. Sorry, that’s pure ignorance, every normal caring person can see how unhappy such inhabitant will be.
That’s one side of the story, the other side is the consuming industry and the stores which sell us everything just for their own benefit and the goodness and good believing of the newbies that are willing to do everything perfect regardless budget, but is unknowing.
The key would be talking with the CEO‘s of companies that sell the chameleon death kits, and put hands together for ones and ever, and put a descent kit together for a starter. At the end they produce the right equipment, just not as a kit and they can still make their with the right kit, win-win situation for everyone.

A good development is that CF is going active on social media, this where we can gain grounds and send people directly to right place, CA or CF.

I also like to thank @kinyonga @MissSkittles @Beman for their time and effort with helping people. Also @Brad and @JacksJill for their effort behind the scene as well on the forum. Also some older members for their long term effort @jannb @snitz427 @jamest0o0 @dinomom @javadi But also some newer members (but no newbies) like @Mendez @crosscutts which have become long distance friends.
And not to forget my ever biggest thanks for all your effort in the chameleon community, like Placebo wrote, ”Without You, I’m Nothing” Bill @DeremensisBlue

Bless you all 🙏🏻🙏🏻
 
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you used to all be like a rabid pack of veileds, I don’t even recognize you anymore.
Cute Gif Reaction GIF
 
I have seen this topic thrown out a few times... Here is where I disagree. Just because someone has been a forum member for 5 years does not mean they are active in the forum or within the hobby. We are also seeing more people pop into the forum that actually have a ton of experience but are at a new member status because they are hardly here. Then there are the people that have been in the hobby but are not up to date on current standards of care.

Then lets break it down a bit more. There are two of us currently doing husbandry reviews. I am one of them and I only have 4 years of experience in the hobby. This was my first ever experience with a reptile. However I continue to learn and grow. I am extremely active here and I can look at an image and spot things that are not right. My lack of time in the hobby does make it so that I do not have the depth of knowledge others have. However when it comes to a husbandry review, spotting issues, and guiding new keepers I am in my pocket of knowledge.

@MissSkittles I hate to see you reduce your skill set like this. I have watched you grow right along with me here. We are the ones picking apart husbandry reviews and guiding new members. I hope you see your value to the forum. I know I could not handle all the husbandry reviews on my own.


I have gone with the approach that when I see incorrect feedback I nicely correct the member. I feel that there is nothing wrong with this as long as it is done with kindness. This is a place for all to post and all to learn and grow. An inviting forum for anyone to share and receive help. This is what makes the forum great.

Yesterday I came across a thread where a newer member greeted the OP welcoming them then posted the husbandry review form which was very much needed. When I got there the form was filled out by the OP and I was able to go through everything. Just because someone is new does not mean they can not be an amazing addition. They made this new member seeking help feel welcomed and open to feedback. That makes a difference.

In closing to my book that I have written... lol I think we all add value and I think every word shared is valuable. I do not think that distinguishing one from another is worth it in the end. It diminishes others like they do not have value and I believe every single one of us bring something wonderful to this forum.
I agree and I like that on here if someone is giving bad/ outdated advice others chime in and shut it down pretty quickly. So it's hard to end up with bad information from this group.
 
I have wrestled with the problem of curating what is presented to newcomers and presenting some consistency. The issue is valid. When someone is new they can be overwhelmed by the different answers and half of them are off base. The newcomer has no way of effectively filtering through the answers and the people who are giving the wrong answers are just repeating what they heard with the absolute best of intentions. Everyone does the best they can and if they new they could do better they would. But until they know it, they will spread what they know.


Rating competency by years in the hobby is misleading. It isn’t the number of years that you have, but what you do with those years. A person who takes all the information, tests it, challenges it, and continually places themselves in the learning mode will be further along in four years than someone who has gotten really good at doing the same thing for 20 years. The list of names of decades-old keepers that are holding the community back is longer than the list of decades-old keepers that are moving it forward. As soon as someone brags about how long they have been a keeper or breeder I am immediately unimpressed. You will notice I mention my years only in my bios to lend credibility for those who have nothing else to go off of, and whenever a breeder starts using their years as a reason why their opinion is best. Number of years is a vanity metric that is misleading, but if that is the dueling weapon of choice then I have no problem stepping into that ring. Other than that, what I say stands on its merits. Someone who has done the same thing for decades and is comfortable with those methods will resist anything new. Skeptical is appropriate, but you can easily cross into that being simply a facade for fear of change.


One approach I have implemented to control the variety of advice to beginners that has had somewhat acceptable results is to decide what the accepted baseline husbandry that will be presented to beginners will be on this platform. This would be the techniques that are in the resources section and the administration team has agreed is the method they are most comfortable and experienced with. It doesn’t have to be the latest in thought. These are beginners and, if you start them off right, they have years to establish themselves and figure out the lay of the land and then make decisions for themselves. A beginner needs it black and white and simple. The greatest gifts you can give a beginner beyond that is let them know that chameleon husbandry is dynamic and that they will hear many other ideas and approaches. Let them know that it is okay to implement the “Chameleon Forums” basic approach (whatever that ends up being) while listening to the debate of alternative methods. If the team here is most comfortable with hydration being misting during the day then that is the basics taught. While the chameleon is being hydrated by day misting the newcomer can be exposed to cup drinking, night fogging, and that Chameleon Academy chart that throws much of it together and tells you to check for the poop! I think the greatest thing we can do for newcomers is to get them started in a way that works and then encourage them to understand the pros and cons of every other approach. The goal, after getting the chameleon to a happy place, is to create a keeper that has the mind to, one day, be part of helping us figure out better ways of doing things. Too often, beginners have the sense that husbandry approaches are rites of initiation into a digital gang that they have to defend. If you create a Chameleon Forums gang than you preside over a digital echo chamber exactly like Facebook groups and Reddit where ideas that threaten the ruling party are eliminated. That said, Chameleon Forums has stood the test of time to not become this so, of all the communities, this one remains the most relevant. You can have an established beginner husbandry protocol and still encourage discussion of other approaches on other threads. As long as you make it clear this is just the starting point you never have to worry about the myriad of other opinions and approaches out there. And if you keep learning yourselves and understand all those other approaches then this forum will be the place where they start and where they come back to discuss what they have learned out there. With that kind of open mind approach to mentorship you can get them started off with a firm foundation, allow them to go into the world to explore (which they will do no matter what), and also let them know this is a safe place to bring back new ideas that will be evaluated on their merit.


The problem with this approach is enforcement. People who have memorized a set of care parameters from whatever group they “grew up” in or have their favorite husbandry ideas will be put out if they are restricted from spreading their husbandry opinion. Even when you announce what is going on. So this isn’t perfect either. But, that is why a good, unified admin team is necessary.


And, finally, the best practice is the help teach. People love helping out. With an established Chameleon Forums beginner guidelines they can memorize that and help teach with the team. And they can be encouraged to challenge the thoughts in threads outside of beginners coming to ask for help. That way the information never gets
Thank you brilliantly stated
I’m one of those extreme newbies, who just learned about the forums 18 months ago and started keeping chameleons for almost 2 years ago. CF has always gave that warm family feeling and I’m from across the ocean and never felt as foreigner. And I owe a lot to the forums and @DeremensisBlue Chameleon Academy, this was my starting point and without them I would have never ended where I’m now. Especially Chameleon Academy gave me food for thoughts in a positive way, in how to perfect it in my own interest of free ranging.

The thing that disturbs me is the stubbornness of so many “newbies” it’s all writing out by someone with years of proven experience, yes years of experience 😉, and yet it gets ignored and they‘ll make the same beginners mistake. This could be excepted in the early 90’s where we needed to go the library and score some books about keeping an animal, which would be a big ”effort”, but nowadays it’s just an effort for few seconds and you get the perfect information. We search for everything on the web and yet we’re not able to notice that I.e. a female needs a lay bin, please! The real problem is people wanna sit front row for a penny. They see a chameleon, want it and only search for the information suited for their budget. The rest will be ignored, just on behalf of their own well-being. We got tons of pictures with perfect setup enclosures, full with plants and branches and yet people put a chameleon in an enclosure with one branch and a bush of fake plants. Sorry, that’s pure ignorance, every normal caring person can see how unhappy such inhabitant will be.
That’s one side of the story, the other side is the consuming industry and the stores which sell us everything just for their own benefit and the goodness and good believing of the newbies that are willing to do everything perfect regardless budget, but is unknowing.
The key would be talking with the CEO‘s of companies that sell the chameleon death kits, and put hands together for ones and ever, and put a descent kit together for a starter. At the end they produce the right equipment, just not as a kit and they can still make their with the right kit, win-win situation for everyone.

A good development is that CF is going active on social media, this where we can gain grounds and send people directly to right place, CA or CF.

I also like to thank @kinyonga @MissSkittles @Beman for their time and effort with helping people. Also @Brad and @JacksJill for their effort behind the scene as well on the forum. Also some older members for their long term effort @jannb @snitz427 @jamest0o0 @dinomom @javadi But also some newer members (but no newbies) like @Mendez @crosscutts which have become long distance friends.
And not to forget my ever biggest thanks for all your effort in the chameleon community, like Placebo wrote, ”Without You, I’m Nothing” Bill @DeremensisBlue

Bless you all 🙏🏻🙏🏻
thank you buddy I really appreciate it 🥰 you’ and @Mendez have become Great friends and your positive reinforcement towards me and everyone you communicate with is to be commend . @DeremensisBlue your outreach has by far help me get to the next level , your patience with others and knowledge is why you’re such a great educator .. the pinnacle of my Chamaeleon keeping was being in one of your video‘s , The irony is I got to do it with one of my good friends @Mendez had no idea we were going to be in it together, just made it that much more amazing .
Thank you so much sir .. (OK I’m gonna go back to lurking) 😎
 
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