Things that are not helpful on the forums...

[ChamelaChameleon]

Thank you brilliantly stated

thank you buddy I really appreciate it you’ and @Mendez have become Great friends and your positive reinforcement towards me and everyone you communicate with is to be commend . @DeremensisBlue your outreach has by far help me get to the next level , your patience with others and knowledge is why you’re such a great educator .. the pinnacle of my Chamaeleon keeping was being in one of your video‘s , The irony is I got to do it with one of my good friends @Mendez had no idea we were going to be in it together, just made it that much more amazing .
Thank you so much sir .. (OK I’m gonna go back to lurking)

I'm one of those newbies that bought the Cham death trap package and took my Cham to an Exotic Vet who was the head Reptile Vet at a Zoo for over 20 years. He assured me that my Cham is a female, had me make a lay bin, and stated I could feed my adult, overweight Cham 5 to 6 crickets daily. Based on my research, I was 99% sure my Cham is a male. I asked the Vet what makes my Cham female? He stated something about checking my Chams glands. So I followed the Vet's advice because he is the educated, experienced professional. I found this forum because I was attempting to validate the Vet's assessment. Guess what, my Chams a male. The Vet with his wealth of knowledge and experience was wrong, wrong, wrong! When advice is given, we gleen that which is useful based on continued research. I've received amazing advice and direction here but I always compare that advice to what I've learn through my own research. As time passes, I rely more and more on the advice here because pass advice has proven to be consistently correct. Training is the key to consistency. Can a newbie be trained to do the husbandry review, absolutely. Training programs are a way to set standards and expectations. Also a training program would add more girth to the platform. Just my opinion. As for that experienced reptile vet, I will not be visiting him again. Another indicator that the platform is doing something right, repeat visitors, increased membership. Keep up the good work. I'm appreciative of what I've learned here and have hopes to continue learning here.

 

[JacksJill]

A training program is an interesting idea. The CF worked just that way for me. I started by lurking and reading the opinions of people others respected. If nobody jumped in on a thread I greeted the new comer and parroted the information I was comfortable giving. I copied and pasted the form to get the ball rolling and then followed the thread to see if I was on track. As I began to have experience of my own to share and information from my research I began to share more.
@ChamelaChameleon if you have specific ideas on what a training program might contain you can message me or add it in the feedback and suggestions forum. If you add it here it may get lost in the white chocolate shuffle.

 

[Beman]

A training program is an interesting idea. The CF worked just that way for me. I started by lurking and reading the opinions of people others respected. If nobody jumped in on a thread I greeted the new comer and parroted the information I was comfortable giving. I copied and pasted the form to get the ball rolling and then followed the thread to see if I was on track. As I began to have experience of my own to share and information from my research I began to share more.
@ChamelaChameleon if you have specific ideas on what a training program might contain you can message me or add it in the feedback and suggestions forum. If you add it here it may get lost in the white chocolate shuffle.

I like this idea as well...

 

[Decadancin]

I don’t know how any of this is helpful here on the forums…

Discussion, ideas, husbandry, blah, blah, blah…

So disappointing.

 

[FredBenneton]

I'm one of those newbies that bought the Cham death trap package and took my Cham to an Exotic Vet who was the head Reptile Vet at a Zoo for over 20 years. He assured me that my Cham is a female, had me make a lay bin, and stated I could feed my adult, overweight Cham 5 to 6 crickets daily. Based on my research, I was 99% sure my Cham is a male. I asked the Vet what makes my Cham female? He stated something about checking my Chams glands. So I followed the Vet's advice because he is the educated, experienced professional. I found this forum because I was attempting to validate the Vet's assessment. Guess what, my Chams a male. The Vet with his wealth of knowledge and experience was wrong, wrong, wrong! When advice is given, we gleen that which is useful based on continued research. I've received amazing advice and direction here but I always compare that advice to what I've learn through my own research. As time passes, I rely more and more on the advice here because pass advice has proven to be consistently correct. Training is the key to consistency. Can a newbie be trained to do the husbandry review, absolutely. Training programs are a way to set standards and expectations. Also a training program would add more girth to the platform. Just my opinion. As for that experienced reptile vet, I will not be visiting him again. Another indicator that the platform is doing something right, repeat visitors, increased membership. Keep up the good work. I'm appreciative of what I've learned here and have hopes to continue learning here.

Ugh. I have read every book on chameleons in the Colorado public library system, been on every Cham website, watched every YouTube video… before I got my first hatching who is a beautiful and healthy one-year-old male.

To piggyback on your comment - the most frustrating thing I’ve dealt with is both conflicting information and completely wrong information. Even coming from “specialists” I’ve had to drive over 3 hours to go see. (I have successfully raised Fred in a ski town!)

Although Fred (panther cham) is my first reptile, I have a pre-vet, Zoology degree, am a vet-tech, and a huge animal rights activist. It makes me sick to hear about how many chams die as pets due to bad husbandry. (And not realizing how expensive and laborious they are to maintain.) I like your training video idea because I have seen too many people attacked in this forum with responses that only say to fill out or look at the information sheet on here, making this forum intimidating at times.

Having a science background and an extensive list of experience with wild animal , etc., my chameleon is by far the most fascinating creature I’ve met so far and I used to go into cages with tigers.

With all that said, are there any opportunities to study chams in captivity? Grants available? There is more research on Dubia roaches than chameleons because they make money off of them. So sad. Any thoughts?

Thank you!
Allison and Fred

 

[Beman]

I have seen too many people attacked in this forum with responses that only say to fill out or look at the information sheet on here, making this forum intimidating at times.

Welcome to the forum. I hope you are seeing this in old threads and not new threads... The last few years we have been really meticulous about making sure kindness is expressed here. To make it an inviting place for people to learn and be a part of a community. There are only a few of us that spend time going through husbandry reviews and providing thorough feedback on them. This in turn puts a lot on those of us that spend our time doing this so we are not able to be in all threads to view the interaction or step in when needed.

So if you do see an interaction that you are not comfortable with please tag me in the thread. I am very active here with Newbie education. With ensuring that the keeper has the correct info to have a successful experience. I do not tolerate rude comments.

There are moments where we have to have the form filled out as a first step. Depending on the situation there can be quite a few husbandry related situations that cause the issues. Some of us will start with that if we see that this would be a situation where the only way we can give proper feedback is if we know the entire picture. This act of filling out the form itself can be intimidating as there are a lot of questions. And when you are new some of the questions may seem like a foreign language. However @MissSkittles and I will gladly take the time to explain anything and we both were once brand new and floundering in the sea of misinformation. So we truly do understand.

 

[FredBenneton]

Thank you for your very thoughtful and thorough reply.



(I have two important questions at the end of this reply.)



I do appreciate this forum and I understand typical replies are mostly based on opinion and experience which is critical when there is so little research done on captive chameleons.



I have a pre-vet, Zoology degree, have worked as a vet-tech and have an extensive/exhausting list of endangered and wild species I have worked with. For example, I used to go into cages with tigers. Fred (panther chameleon) is my first reptile and I feel like I have never been more fascinated by any other creature. Despite all of the wrong/conflicting information on the web, from specialists, etc. I successfully raised Fred from a hatchling into a beautiful healthy one-year-old, extremely friendly cham (and in a ski town in Colorado)!



Questions:



Are there any opportunities to humanely do research on captive bred chameleons? Any grants out there for it?



After reading every book in the CO library system, every forum, website, YouTube video… all they give you is the basic facts. I can’t find any scientific research and sadly I feel like there is more research done on Dubia roaches than chameleons - because money can be made.



Second question:

This is one I was afraid of asking on the forum. As mentioned above, Fred is shockingly so friendly that he likes to be handled (daily) and will let anyone else (including supervised children) handle him without any signs of stress. Last summer I took him on walks on the crowed bike path and stopped to educate anyone/everyone interested in him. In the past year we have also moved 3/4 times and he has lived in numerous DIY enclosures, is extremely curious and extremely smart. My theory is that although they have a “lizard brain,” they use 100% of it versus humans who use ~10% of our brains. LOL.



So, I am contemplating whether or not it would be ok for Fred if I brought him into local schools to educate children on not only chameleons but also respecting animals. I live in Steamboat Springs, CO, 3/4 hours away from the closest zoo/opportunity to see wild animals other than our local wildlife.



Thoughts?



Thank you so much!

Allison and Fred

 

[MissSkittles]

Hi and welcome! I can’t help you out on your first question, but I wish you much success in finding answers and opportunities. Sometimes when we find something lacking, that is when we need to find and implement a solution.
For your second question, I’d be hesitant to have Fred be an ambassador animal. While he may be crazy friendly, it may still be a cause of stress for him and personally I wouldn’t risk it. I’d also be concerned that with an audience of primarily children, they may get the impression that all chameleons are friendly and don’t mind being held/handled. There have been too many times that I’ve cursed Disney for using a chameleon in Tangled and promoting them as cute pets for kids. For education purposes, a bearded dragon or even a friendly snake may be better. One of the few memories I have of elementary school is someone bringing boa constrictors in to teach us that snakes aren’t scary or slimy. You could incorporate Fred into a video presentation.

 

[kinyonga]

You said…”the most frustrating thing I’ve dealt with is both conflicting information and completely wrong information. Even coming from “specialists” I’ve had to drive over 3 hours to go see”…there is definitely lots of bad information out there.

I don’t know of any vet courses that teach much about chameleons …or reptiles in general….so How do we end up with good chameleon vets?

 

[MissSkittles]

so How do we end up with good chameleon vets?

I’ve wondered about that. Is it the vet that has a decent number of chameleon patients that prompts him/her to search for more knowledge? A personal pet or fascination? A skilled mentor? We always encourage people to see vets who are experienced with chameleons, but how else are those other vets to get experience with chameleons if we don’t go to them? Should I go to the exotics vet across the street and help prompt her to learn more and give her experience rather than make an hour drive for the experienced vet?

 

[snitz427]

I’ve wondered about that. Is it the vet that has a decent number of chameleon patients that prompts him/her to search for more knowledge? A personal pet or fascination? A skilled mentor? We always encourage people to see vets who are experienced with chameleons, but how else are those other vets to get experience with chameleons if we don’t go to them? Should I go to the exotics vet across the street and help prompt her to learn more and give her experience rather than make an hour drive for the experienced vet?

For me - the closer, more convenient exotic vet personally owned chameleons and regularly treats and also rehabs reptiles.

The specialty / higher end vet did pretty extensive research on chams and literally wrote a text book (some say THE textbook) on chameleons. Dr Stahl… unfortunately his practice is 2 hours away, and so I only go there for second opinions or less common issues.

I also take other people’s experience into consideration when looking for a vet.

 

[ChamelaChameleon]

I’ve wondered about that. Is it the vet that has a decent number of chameleon patients that prompts him/her to search for more knowledge? A personal pet or fascination? A skilled mentor? We always encourage people to see vets who are experienced with chameleons, but how else are those other vets to get experience with chameleons if we don’t go to them? Should I go to the exotics vet across the street and help prompt her to learn more and give her experience rather than make an hour drive for the experienced vet?

I have visited 3 Vet's. My first Vet/ex-Vet who was the reptile Vet at the local zoo - was not Chameleon knowledgeable. He could not sex an adult Chameleon. I haven't and will not use him again. He wasn't helpful. My 2nd Vet - general vet- was more Chameleon knowledgeable and has an exam room decorated in Chameleon pictures, called the chamelon room( this was a plus). He examined Carmelo while I observed. I was impressed with his knowledge of body parts and the way he handled Carmelo during the exam. It was a true Dr. Patient relationship. He then asked for pictures of the enclosure and discussed temps and humidity. He pointed out signs for common Chameleon issues that i should monitor, mouth rot, check yhe vent, inspect poop . I use him as my go to Vet. I also have a Chameleon specific Vet. I use her for second opinions or anything I deem really serious. For me, I base my choice of Vet on my comfort level regarding the advice I receive and my gut feelings. The thing that stands out to me is the length of time it takes for pet parents to seek Vet intervention. What I see is pet parents wait until things are dire to see a Vet. In dire situations- you need a specialist but you need to establish the relationship prior to needing a sick visit. jmo.

 

[kinyonga]

I realize I’m a little off the topic…sorry…but it might explain a bit…

When I first started keeping chameleons in the 80’s, the first vet I went to wouldn’t even hold the chameleon. The second one said he needed to check with a colleague and would get back to me for treatment of the abscess…but he never did and when I called his office a couple of days later I was told he was at a conference and never called me so I could look for another vet before my chameleon died.…he now has a big position as a vet…so I hope he changed and really deserves 5at position. By an amazing fluke someone I knew in an animal science field, directed me to take that chameleon to my my third vet who had only treated “two or three” chameleons when I met him…but he saved that chameleon with the abscess and we went on learning about chameleons together. He later wrote the paper on CANV….which started because of two of my WC chameleons had it.

This year past, the program where that vet and many others I met over the years learned, was shut down…so now I don’t know how they expect vets to learn about exotic animals. It’s not like the exotic animals are going to go away as pets…and what about at zoos, rescues, etc.

When I was going through my first chameleon experiences and vets, I decided that maybe if I gave each of the vets along the way, one of the baby veiled that I hatched and they had to raise it, they would learn about chameleons first hand. I also thought it would be interesting to see how long those chameleons’ lives would be, how they would make out with egg laying etc. I never knew if it really helped or not because I didn’t get too much feedback from the vets.

I took a few of my chameleons to a meeting too, to show the vets how to sex chameleons and other reptiles.

I also gave them permission to give vets in Canada and the States my phone number so they could call me if they had any chameleon or other reptile patients.

I don’t know if any of those things helped, but I hoped it did…at least once in a while.

 

[Mad Dog Murphy]

Now I'm sure you are wondering what things on the forums need to change...

The first that comes to mind is when forum members attack newcomers who don't yet know that they are doing things incorrectly. It adds no value and often will lead to new keepers going elsewhere or worse yet, not seeking advice they truly need. People will respond to friendly advice much faster than attacks based on what they have done before they knew it was incorrect.

I’m new to this forum and haven’t encountered any negativity thus far, not to say it doesn’t happen,only found members to be super helpful which is nice, like u say ,had I received negativity from the offset then I’d have left tout suite, I can’t abide rudeness and generally there’s no need for it, we all have to learn somewhere and what better place than here, and I imagine even a experienced owner is still learning from what others do on occasion, I haven’t asked many questions of late because I’ve been using the search feature to find the answers I need on previous threads, that works well, can’t comment on the white chocolate scenario but all I can say is I’m a fan of Chocolate and won’t have a bad word said about it keep up the good work folks.

 

[Beman]

@FredBenneton My pleasure and I do hope you enjoy the community we have here. Per your questions. the first one I am unsure of. There have been different studies but I do not know where they are published. Outside of my wheel house. lol

Now the second question... Here is the thing with a friendly chameleon. As long as husbandry is spot on and there is not a reason for them to want to leave the cage such as incorrect set up, uvb, etc. Then you may very well have a friendly boy. Where you have to be careful is with over stimulation. Showing signs of shut down from stress like closing eyes and sleeping during the day and reduced or no eating. Also if taking them outside for extended times you have to watch the temp. If they are riding around on you there is no way for them to get out of the sun if they start to overheat. Also at certain times of the day the UVI level of exposure outside can be far too intense for them. The weather app on your phone should show the UVI for that time during the day. You want it to be below a 6 UVI.

As for the schools... I never frown on education when it was done properly. I would not let anyone other than you handle him or touch him. But you have to consider the downside as well. You are exposing kids who have seen the movie tangled. I can not begin to tell you how many people come here who got a chameleon based on what they saw in that movie. So you do not want your influence to contribute to children talking their parents into going and buying them a chameleon at petco. And with kids it is very hard to explain the intensity of the care required. I have seen both good and bad in this forum with minors that have gotten chams. From those that go above and beyond like an adult would and have the financial support of parents to those that no matter how many times you gently try to explain what the issue is they just do not get it and on top of it their parents do not provide the financial means for them to care for the chameleon. So they die and most commonly this happens slowly and painfully for both the cham and the child.

I am not saying it can not be done just do it with care. Make sure they understand it is a grown up type of pet and in all reality it is like having a fish tank that you are only able to look and not touch. Panthers are more friendly than veileds however veiled babies are the most common carried in stores. Most veileds are aggressive, bite, strike, and become very much a look and don't touch animal.

My Male Veiled Beman just turned 5 years old this month. I have had him since he was 4 months old. He was so dang friendly that I second guessed everything with him. And then at about 18 months his entire personality changed. Rather than preferring my interaction he preferred to be left a lone. Granted I built a very trusting relationship with him when he was young. So he has never bitten me. But he will try to lunge and strike if he does not want to be bothered. And then like Dr. Jekyll and Mr Hyde he will switch it up and act like he did when he was young. Friendly crawling out on me. Letting me pet his cheeks. But at 42 years old I know how to read his personality. A child would not therefor I really do not think they are a pet for a child. Don't get me wrong we have our exceptions in this forum. I have mentored a few. All young as in under 15. I have watched them turn into amazing keepers understanding the needs of their chameleon and ensuring that their cham always comes first.

Anyways that is my long and drawn out 2 cents lol