The High Prices of The New Madagascar Quotas Chameleon Species?

[jajeanpierre]

A little bird told me Calumma oshaughnessyi leave Madagascar for 400 bucks and Calumma Parsonii for about 700.00....... thats before shipping and cites paperwork fees.

I've imported a few CITES I and CITES II animals/animal products into the US. My last foray with US Fish and Wildlife was last summer when I brought in an ivory carving that has been in my family for decades.

There are a lot of fees that both the exporting country and the importing country collect besides just for the CITES documents. The US will have US Fish and Wildlife inspection fees and other fees for documents. I've only paid for fees that are related to personally owned household goods (the ivory) and personal pets (parrots). I don't know what the fees are for a commercial shipment. I think my ivory cost me about $500 in fees just to the US government, not including my legal fees to get affidavits about its history. Sometimes the Department of Agriculture gets involved if there is any risk to agriculture.

You can find the fees, but it won't be easy. US Fish and Wildlife's left hand doesn't know what its right hand is doing, and their web sites are not easy to navigate. There isn't a place that says if you have this species to import, this is what documents you need. (I've imported CITES II parrots back and forth between Canada and Saudi Arabia when I lived in the Kingdom and brought my parrots to Canada for the summers. I've also imported two shipments of parrots from Canada to the US, plus the ivory.)

It is a really time-consuming challenge to deal with USFW. They will confiscate the shipment at the drop of a hat, too. I would expect the US importers to have spent many many hours getting the documents in order.

 

[Mike Fisher]

It is a really time-consuming challenge to deal with USFW. They will confiscate the shipment at the drop of a hat, too. I would expect the US importers to have spent many many hours getting the documents in order.

True. About 25 years ago I was planning to import some CB Fijiian Banded iguanas from a breeder in Europe. The amount of paperwork and fees deterred me.

 

[eisentrauti]

The mentioned prices are more or less accurate, but like my pre-posters said, that's not all. You must pay the flight, which costs usual business-class like, you must pay for vet docs (although the animals were never checked), because we are in f#*king Africa you must often bribe sb (or maybe the exporter just wants some extra $s) and so on. I know those points and I know what I can expect here but my main point against an import is the quality,
which is still a bad joke, especially if you consider the price you pay per animal. Or the fact that exporters often seem to be unable to sex animals correct (or maybe they just don't want to).
I have a very reliable person in Tanzania and when I order x.x animals, subadult, I will get exactly what I ordered. I will receive animals which are healthy, good eaters and which look like I just catched them from a tree. And for this I'm ready to pay some extra $s.
I've imported rare pardalis morphs too (which were over 100$ each on stocklists) and sometimes I got a bad sex ratio, sometimes animals which were not just adult - they were really old, half dead ones and so on.
The prices those guys in Madagascar ask for are ridiculous in terms of quality they provide.

 

[OldChamKeeper]

The mentioned prices are more or less accurate, but like my pre-posters said, that's not all. You must pay the flight, which costs usual business-class like, you must pay for vet docs (although the animals were never checked), because we are in f#*king Africa you must often bribe sb (or maybe the exporter just wants some extra $s) and so on. I know those points and I know what I can expect here but my main point against an import is the quality,
which is still a bad joke, especially if you consider the price you pay per animal. Or the fact that exporters often seem to be unable to sex animals correct (or maybe they just don't want to).
I have a very reliable person in Tanzania and when I order x.x animals, subadult, I will get exactly what I ordered. I will receive animals which are healthy, good eaters and which look like I just catched them from a tree. And for this I'm ready to pay some extra $s.
I've imported rare pardalis morphs too (which were over 100$ each on stocklists) and sometimes I got a bad sex ratio, sometimes animals which were not just adult - they were really old, half dead ones and so on.
The prices those guys in Madagascar ask for are ridiculous in terms of quality they provide.

This.


Between the recent Cameroon import problems and the high prices of the Madagascar animals, it's pretty clear nothing has changed except the dollar amount. People are still people and they will screw you to make a buck. Finding out the importer of the Quads kept back the best animals to sell in his store and instead gave all the B animals to a large group of well funded and experienced keepers pretty much was the nail in the topic's coffin for me. I won't touch the Madagascar imports until the price drops as I expect it to when people stop opening their wallets for the same old imported crap we got back in the 80's and 90's

 

[eisentrauti]

Maybe it's a cynical point of view, but after I did those imports, I understood why Africa is still struggeling and will for several decades more. If there was a real market for let's say Lacerta agilis or viridis, I would just not keep them, I would breed them in large numbers, because nothing is easier than keeping reptiles in their natural range. It's no problem to keep douzens or even hundrets of chameleons outdoors, if you plan things things well. You need some screen enclosures, some composing stuff to attract feeders, a thermal gradient and depending on the species some water. That's it. It's no rocket science. But how many farms could be found in Africa ? A douzen ? Probably less. So instead animals are still wild caught, from poor trappers who get not even one dollar per animal, who pack them together in large number and due to the missing infrastructure they are often days away from their destination. Once the animals arrive at the facility, they are still keep together in douzens, under miserable conditions.
Survival of the fittest on meth.
So no, paying several hundret $s for weak animals is not a fair price. It's a rip-off price. Those people survive in this business because at a continent of blinds the one eyed is the king.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

This.


Between the recent Cameroon import problems and the high prices of the Madagascar animals, it's pretty clear nothing has changed except the dollar amount. People are still people and they will screw you to make a buck. Finding out the importer of the Quads kept back the best animals to sell in his store and instead gave all the B animals to a large group of well funded and experienced keepers pretty much was the nail in the topic's coffin for me. I won't touch the Madagascar imports until the price drops as I expect it to when people stop opening their wallets for the same old imported crap we got back in the 80's and 90's

Ralph

I would not be that quick to say that. The health of the chameleons that has arrived from the first couple imports has been good. I actually have not heard of 1/one story yet of a high priced chameleon going home and dying a couple days later as is what is happening to the Cameroon imports. If the health of the imported Madagascar chameleons stays constantly and good the prices most probably are going to hold at a high price.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Maybe it's a cynical point of view, but after I did those imports, I understood why Africa is still struggeling and will for several decades more. If there was a real market for let's say Lacerta agilis or viridis, I would just not keep them, I would breed them in large numbers, because nothing is easier than keeping reptiles in their natural range. It's no problem to keep douzens or even hundrets of chameleons outdoors, if you plan things things well. You need some screen enclosures, some composing stuff to attract feeders, a thermal gradient and depending on the species some water. That's it. It's no rocket science. But how many farms could be found in Africa ? A douzen ? Probably less. So instead animals are still wild caught, from poor trappers who get not even one dollar per animal, who pack them together in large number and due to the missing infrastructure they are often days away from their destination. Once the animals arrive at the facility, they are still keep together in douzens, under miserable conditions.
Survival of the fittest on meth.
So no, paying several hundret $s for weak animals is not a fair price. It's a rip-off price. Those people survive in this business because at a continent of blinds the one eyed is the king.

The wild caught Madagascar chameleons at Hamm are in terrible shape? The new imports here in the USA for the most part have all look good and healthy after a couple days out of the bag not weak at all?

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[eisentrauti]

The wild caught Madagascar chameleons at Hamm are in terrible shape? The new imports here in the USA for the most part have all look good and healthy after a couple days out of the bag not weak at all?

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

Just ask the guys who did the recent imports...

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Just ask the guys who did the recent imports...

I have talked to most of the importers here in the USA? All the picures are not of B grade chameleons? The pictures and vendors over at Hamm look good and have got high prices too. That is why I am approaching you Benny. The word has always been October-January shipments are good. While shipments after April are not that great.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[Todnedo]

Steve

Thanks for contributing. That seems a somewhat accurate estimate from the exporters and correlates to the estimates I have talked too about ball park import prices I have had with importers. I could probably justify $800 or more for Calumma parsonii parsonii especially if they are the without a doubt healthy Parsonii of the rarer phases or locals, along with how much the species is marked up here in the states. These prices would become even more justifiable if these Calumma parsonii are sexable ranched or farmed specimens and not wild caught specimens. After the new species have been established for a year or 2 it would not surprise me if their was a bit of a retail price drop though. Especially with an established market and when captive bred new quota Madagascar Calumma and Furcifer chameleons become available to keepers in the USA or North America.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

Parsonii Local? Ok you mean color form but ranched or farmed ..... where? who? you got pics of these places where hundreds of parsons are produced? because thats what comes to mind when you say that.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Parsonii Local? Ok you mean color form but ranched or farmed ..... where? who? you got pics of these places where hundreds of parsons are produced? because thats what comes to mind when you say that.

Steve

Why do you get pissed when someone is more educated/knows more than you? To educate you a bit. There used to be about 4 or 5 reptile farms that have got chameleons on Madagascar to my knowledge that stopped breeding chameleons for export mostly during the 1995 ban. Now that there are new quotas they should be starting back up again. One of the main ones is Olaf Pronk's farm in the capital of Antananarivo. He has openly stated (with pictures of his Parsonii) he has bred Calumma parsonii parsonii (Orange Eye, Yellow Lips and Yellow Giants I prefer calling them Golden Giants or Honey Parsons) and Calumma parsonii cristifer. You, if you can calm your nerve can talk to him on Facebook and look at his incubating eggs. Many people on these Forums know about Olaf from the USA and from Europe. I have known about him from before the 1995 ban. If the 4 to 5 farms/ranches start back up again and with a quota of 300 Calumma parsonii. Plus the farms/ranches Parsonii are laying 30 eggs per clutch. That is only 10 clutches for all of the 4 to 5 farms/ranches. That is not many clutches for those farms/ranches. Those Madagascar exports quotas may predominately become farm or ranched Parsonii if the farms/ranches produce there quotas each year.

Jurgen weren't you planning on moving to Madagascar LOL?

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[Todnedo]

Steve

Why do you get pissed when someone is more educated/knows more than you? To educate you a bit. There used to be about 4 or 5 reptile farms that have got chameleons on Madagascar to my knowledge that stopped breeding chameleons for export mostly during the 1995 ban. Now that there are new quotas they should be starting back up again. One of the main ones is Olaf Pronk's farm in the capital of Antananarivo. He has openly stated (with pictures of his Parsonii) he has bred Calumma parsonii parsonii (Orange Eye, Yellow Lips and Yellow Giants I prefer calling them Golden Giants or Honey Parsons) and Calumma parsonii cristifer. You, if you can calm your nerve can talk to him on Facebook and look at his incubating eggs. Many people on these Forums know about Olaf from the USA and from Europe. I have known about him from before the 1995 ban. If the 4 to 5 farms/ranches start back up again and with a quota of 300 Calumma parsonii. Plus the farms/ranches Parsonii are laying 30 eggs per clutch. That is only 10 clutches for all of the 4 to 5 farms/ranches. That is not many clutches for those farms/ranches. Those Madagascar exports quotas may predominately become farm or ranched Parsonii if the farms/ranches produce there quotas each year.

Jurgen weren't you planning on moving to Madagascar LOL?

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

Sure everyone here believes that

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Sure everyone here believes that

Steve

I did not ask you to believe me. You are still behaving like an infant. Did you even look at Olaf's Facebook site?

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[eisentrauti]

You must differentiate between something which can be called ranched and real captive breed animals. It's not so difficult to catch gravid wc females and let them lay.
And Jeremey, maybe you should ask Luis about his recent experiences with Olaf and the glorious exports

 

[Todnedo]

Ranched Chameleons just sounds ridiculous to me, its more of a livestock term cattle, sheep, poultry ect. The US fish and wildlife wasn't impressed with Ranched reptiles either
http://www.chameleonnews.com/02MayKalischImport.html

 

[eisentrauti]

Ranched Chameleons just sounds ridiculous to me, its more of a livestock term cattle, sheep, poultry ect. The US fish and wildlife wasn't impressed with Ranched reptiles either
http://www.chameleonnews.com/02MayKalischImport.html

Well this expression wasn't invented by me, I just use it

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

You must differentiate between something which can be called ranched and real captive breed animals. It's not so difficult to catch gravid wc females and let them lay.
And Jeremey, maybe you should ask Luis about his recent experiences with Olaf and the glorious exports

I have long heard about not trusting the exporters from Madagascar. Back in the 1990's I heard a lot of thrash talk about Olaf too. There are other Farms other than Olaf's though.

Ranched is captive hatched while farmed is captive bred. Laying is one thing even with captive hatched chameleons having a 14 plus month incubation and a diapause for the Parsonii like Calumma's is not easy to hatch.

I coined the term "Ranched" from crocodile farmers who occasionally collect eggs from wild nests for Australian crocodile farms. These are captive hatched crocodile eggs for there industry. Something similar could be done with long lived Madagascar Calumma and Furcifer.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[jajeanpierre]

Ranched Chameleons just sounds ridiculous to me, its more of a livestock term cattle, sheep, poultry ect. The US fish and wildlife wasn't impressed with Ranched reptiles either
http://www.chameleonnews.com/02MayKalischImport.html

Ranched is a proper designation for the origin of an animal on a CITES permit. It seems the US decided to write the CITES Ranching rules. Importing countries normally take the exporting country's CITES permits at face value. Except the US. They go a little weird over CITES permits.

Before I had an understanding of CITES, I sent blood from CITES II parrots to a lab in the US for DNA sex testing. OMG, I included a feather in the shipment without noting it on the Department of Agriculture forms I filled out. US Fish and Wildlife seized the shipment and fined the lab about $4000 for not telling me I needed CITES forms. They also yelled and screamed at me as if I were smuggling a ton of cocaine into the country. Or tiger skins. I worried when I applied for American citizenship that I would have some sort of smuggling/criminal record on my file. I had to disclose it to immigration. They went CRAZY over this. After experience, all other blood I sent happened to be domestic chicken blood documented by a world famous avian vet.

CITES causes a lot of head aches for people trying to save a species. You can't get blood/tissue samples/anything to a First World lab for disease testing. It's a broken system. My blood sample (for my very alive parrot that was not exported) needed the same paperwork that I would have needed if I had been exporting the live bird.

Here's some links to CITES classification of ranching:

http://www.cites.org/sites/default/files/eng/cop/13/doc/E13-47.pdf

If that wasn't dry enough, here's more:

http://www.cites.org/eng/res/11/11-16R15.php

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Ranched is a proper designation for the origin of an animal on a CITES permit. It seems the US decided to write the CITES Ranching rules. Importing countries normally take the exporting country's CITES permits at face value. Except the US. They go a little weird over CITES permits.

Before I had an understanding of CITES, I sent blood from CITES II parrots to a lab in the US for DNA sex testing. OMG, I included a feather in the shipment without noting it on the Department of Agriculture forms I filled out. US Fish and Wildlife seized the shipment and fined the lab about $4000 for not telling me I needed CITES forms. They also yelled and screamed at me as if I were smuggling a ton of cocaine into the country. Or tiger skins. I worried when I applied for American citizenship that I would have some sort of smuggling/criminal record on my file. I had to disclose it to immigration. They went CRAZY over this. After experience, all other blood I sent happened to be domestic chicken blood documented by a world famous avian vet.

CITES causes a lot of head aches for people trying to save a species. You can't get blood/tissue samples/anything to a First World lab for disease testing. It's a broken system. My blood sample (for my very alive parrot that was not exported) needed the same paperwork that I would have needed if I had been exporting the live bird.

Here's some links to CITES classification of ranching:

http://www.cites.org/sites/default/files/eng/cop/13/doc/E13-47.pdf

If that wasn't dry enough, here's more:

http://www.cites.org/eng/res/11/11-16R15.php

Thanks for posting the links. That was as I stated in the material you provided. When crocodile eggs are removed form the wild for crocodile farming. Those are considered ranched specimens. Something similar could is possible for longer lived Calumma and Furcifer species.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[OldChamKeeper]

After Laurie posted on the Quad topic we spent UP FRONT $4000 bucks for healthy picks and still got the shaft the lesson learned is this for those of us wanting to buy anything from Madagascar.


Don't pay up front, don't trust the importers. Make THEM take all the risk and if you are going to pay big $$$$ for an animal at least the animal is already in the country, you can get pictures of the exact animal you are buying, and via E-mails (which hold up in court, phones calls don't) you can establish what it is you are paying for.

There is zero reason to pay up front for "the best picks" from any importer. They are always going to keep the best so they can sell them to random individuals or friends for top dollar. I've seen some folks asking for payments before the animals are even in the country, take it from me....don't do it. Wait until you can get the a picture of the actual animal you are paying for IF you are going to actually pay these silly prices. Buying sight unseen is not industry standard, but the importers would like it to be since that is what they are stuck with. Put the weight back on the seller to provide the animal you are paying for.