The High Prices of The New Madagascar Quotas Chameleon Species?

[Mike Fisher]

They just came in wc and I got together with a couple friends and ordered 20 pair of quads.

That's great! I almost picked some up. As much as I really love them, I've decided that I don't want to keep them again.

They are one of the species I could see taking a foothold in the USA along with Veiled and Panther. They are extremely easy to keep and breed and the perfect option for those in the cooler climates.

Best of luck to your group!

 

[OldChamKeeper]

I don't know if the price will drop or not from the chams I chose to work with. They just came in wc and I got together with a couple friends and ordered 20 pair of quads. Are they somewhat beat up ? Yes they are. Are some smaller than I wanted/expected? Yes, but I am determined to get cbb quads in the US, hopefully in my life time. With a small group working with them, loaning for breeding, giving between the group, I honestly feel we may have the dedication and staying power to bring cbb into the market.

Or maybe this is just my pipe dream.

It's not a pipe dream.

You convinced me to come out of my cave and help. Something only Chris Anderson has done before you. I have three bloodlines to work with, others I can trade with that are only a drive away. people I trust enough to talk with or have lunch with. So no Laurie, it's not a pipe dream. Establishing these will take work and the efforts of people who are NOT looking to make a second income off these. I'm not saying they won't be sold, but I plan on giving first priority to the others in the collective -be that either trading or selling to them so that we can get these different bloodlines established.

This import was typical from what I've seen in shipments of years past. They are bruised, dehydrated, and overall not perfect. Just like I would expect.

As a routine I always deworm them. Don't even need a fecal imo since I know they are going to have a parasite load. I share that since some people thought these animals were below their expectations. Here I am knowing they will have a parasite load and that they will look beat up and there are others out there thinking these animals would arrive shiny and new. Those are the people who should not have bothered to acquire some.

For the record, at least with the animals we got over here on the west coast, a large scale fecal was done and as expected they all have a heavy parasite load. Is it fatal? Only if not treated. Is it hard to treat them? Hell no. Will a few not make it... I saw one out of our group that I would say has less than a 50% chance. The rest are all looking ok but will take around 3 months to recover from the importation. At least they all went right into the hands of serious keepers.

So no Laurie, it's not a pipe dream you came up with.

Quads are very deserving of the attention you've given to them. I've found them to be much hardier than I last remembered them to be. Not quite as tough as a Jackson's but similar enough to where over time if they are established in the country I can see them finding homes with moderately experienced keepers. Once that happens they have a niche like the Panthers and others.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

It's not a pipe dream.

You convinced me to come out of my cave and help. Something only Chris Anderson has done before you. I have three bloodlines to work with, others I can trade with that are only a drive away. people I trust enough to talk with or have lunch with. So no Laurie, it's not a pipe dream. Establishing these will take work and the efforts of people who are NOT looking to make a second income off these. I'm not saying they won't be sold, but I plan on giving first priority to the others in the collective -be that either trading or selling to them so that we can get these different bloodlines established.

This import was typical from what I've seen in shipments of years past. They are bruised, dehydrated, and overall not perfect. Just like I would expect.

As a routine I always deworm them. Don't even need a fecal imo since I know they are going to have a parasite load. I share that since some people thought these animals were below their expectations. Here I am knowing they will have a parasite load and that they will look beat up and there are others out there thinking these animals would arrive shiny and new. Those are the people who should not have bothered to acquire some.

For the record, at least with the animals we got over here on the west coast, a large scale fecal was done and as expected they all have a heavy parasite load. Is it fatal? Only if not treated. Is it hard to treat them? Hell no. Will a few not make it... I saw one out of our group that I would say has less than a 50% chance. The rest are all looking ok but will take around 3 months to recover from the importation. At least they all went right into the hands of serious keepers.

So no Laurie, it's not a pipe dream you came up with.

Quads are very deserving of the attention you've given to them. I've found them to be much hardier than I last remembered them to be. Not quite as tough as a Jackson's but similar enough to where over time if they are established in the country I can see them finding homes with moderately experienced keepers. Once that happens they have a niche like the Panthers and others.

I would not say anyone made me live in a cave ever. However Ralph is correct that breeding programs are not pipe dreams. Chameleons have proven to be capable of being bred long term for chameleon species such as Chamaeleo calyptratus and Furcifer pardalis. For Madagascar species such as Calumma parsonii parsonii breeding programs have been established in the USA for almost a decade now and have progressed to the point that captive bred Calumma parsonii parsonii have recently been produced. As well the first of the new quota species Furcifer campani has had about 4-5 clutches hatch recently and caused an apparent recent interest in breeding programs for this species. Along with the new quota species from this years there are already breeding programs being established for Calumma oshaughnessyi, the Elephant Eared Chameleons, and Calumma nasutum.

As a study of Agriculture both plant and animal breeding programs are an essential component to the study and business of this department. If chameleon breeding programs are going to be considered quasi/somewhat an Agriculture/Bio Science field, breeding programs have got to be apart of this study/business and are not a pipe dreams.

This is why people can ask for higher prices for healthy captive bred chameleons compared to wild caught chameleons that may not arrive in the best shape/condition.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[OldChamKeeper]

Well some time has passed since the new import of Quads came in. I've been able to look at all the one's Bill got in that a bunch of us "serious" keepers all went in on and purchased up front. Now while they are as expected, beat up, in need of attention, what was a surprise was that I found out the importer kept all the best for themselves and after seeing some for sale now online being sold as solo animals to anybody interested, almost pristine animals, it just brings me back to this post in which I explained why serious keepers like me will not spend $1000+ on an import sight unseen. I for one won't ever buy again from the guy who did this import after seeing how Bill got the crap and the importer kept the jewels to sell online to any person looking for a new lizard instead of the "serious" keepers spending a lot of money up front. One of Bill's females already passed away despite being in his good care and even going to see Dr. Greek. Anybody with experience in chams could look at that female and know it had days to live. I guessed it at 48 hrs but Bill told me it didn't make it past 24.

And THAT is why many of the friends I have in this hobby won't spend the big bucks on these imports sight unseen.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Well some time has passed since the new import of Quads came in. I've been able to look at all the one's Bill got in that a bunch of us "serious" keepers all went in on and purchased up front. Now while they are as expected, beat up, in need of attention, what was a surprise was that I found out the importer kept all the best for themselves and after seeing some for sale now online being sold as solo animals to anybody interested, almost pristine animals, it just brings me back to this post in which I explained why serious keepers like me will not spend $1000+ on an import sight unseen. I for one won't ever buy again from the guy who did this import after seeing how Bill got the crap and the importer kept the jewels to sell online to any person looking for a new lizard instead of the "serious" keepers spending a lot of money up front. One of Bill's females already passed away despite being in his good care and even going to see Dr. Greek. Anybody with experience in chams could look at that female and know it had days to live. I guessed it at 48 hrs but Bill told me it didn't make it past 24.

And THAT is why many of the friends I have in this hobby won't spend the big bucks on these imports sight unseen.

And that is a good big reason why that retailer most probably won't be receiving your return business in the future. He did not take care of his experienced keepers and a giant order. My regards to hear that happened the way that did you and your colleagues have had high hopes for this new import. I say with an order that large you should have seen pictures of the Trioceros quadricornis or other chameleons species for that matter that you were picking out.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[OldChamKeeper]

And that is a good big reason why that retailer most probably won't be receiving your return business in the future. He did not take care of his experienced keepers and a giant order.

You are 100% correct on this. The importer has some nice animals up on Kingsnake and I sure as hell won't spend any $$$ with him again. I hear Laurie is having some issues with hers but I don't know the details. Maybe she'll share if it doesn't get worked out privately.

Honestly sucks the hobby is still filled with people not as interested in the animals as they are in some $$$$. However that is how it was back in the 80's and 90's.

 

[frankpayne32]

Honestly sucks the hobby is still filled with people not as interested in the animals as they are in some $$$$. However that is how it was back in the 80's and 90's.

Absolutely. I said it in a related thread how much of a double-edged sword this time is. On one hand we are in a real chameleon renaissance where many species are available again at a time when serious keepers exist in the states that have learned what does and does not work from fifteen to twenty years ago. There is a major opportunity to grow as keepers and promoters of these animals. However, on the other hand, there are still many involved in the process that only care about the dollar, not about the animals. This quad import is obviously an example of that. It's sad that the true breeders got the poor animals but I have faith that quads WILL become established in this country because of the people working with them.

On a related side note, after having spoken in person with one of the importers, the high prices apparently came directly from the exporters in Maddy. They are shrewd businessmen and have seen the prices Americans will pay for captive bred parsons and the like and knew there would be people that would pay the same sort of prices for wild caught parsons and other rare species. At least, in theory, a big chunk of these high prices of the Madagascar shipments are going to people in Madagascar.

 

[Action Jackson]

I think all "serious" keepers know the perils of working with wild caught chameleons. Having sick or injured chameleons in a shipment is to be expected. These animals often go through hell to get here, from collection to housing and shipping they suffer injuries, dehydration, stress and parasites.

I'm familiar with these perils as I experienced them when I bought my Meru's. They came in with frostbite and broken horns. I also experienced the same with the johnstoni that came in. There were unhealthy animals in both these shipments and there are probably only a handful of animals left from each. I lost animals due to prior health issues from each import. I knew before buying that there was risk involved.

Some of us want to work with these less commonly seen chameleons because we enjoy them and want others to have access to healthy captive bred specimens so we take the risk.

I can see a importer getting a order for 20 quads putting some nice ones in there and some not so nice ones in there. I can also see that importer holding back nice ones to sell individually. That's just the way it works.

With all that said I totally understand your frustration Ralph. I know the people that recieved new Quad breeding stock are experienced and will have more success with thier Quad breeding projects.

 

[Sohumvet]

Well some time has passed since the new import of Quads came in. I've been able to look at all the one's Bill got in that a bunch of us "serious" keepers all went in on and purchased up front. Now while they are as expected, beat up, in need of attention, what was a surprise was that I found out the importer kept all the best for themselves and after seeing some for sale now online being sold as solo animals to anybody interested, almost pristine animals, it just brings me back to this post in which I explained why serious keepers like me will not spend $1000+ on an import sight unseen. I for one won't ever buy again from the guy who did this import after seeing how Bill got the crap and the importer kept the jewels to sell online to any person looking for a new lizard instead of the "serious" keepers spending a lot of money up front. One of Bill's females already passed away despite being in his good care and even going to see Dr. Greek. Anybody with experience in chams could look at that female and know it had days to live. I guessed it at 48 hrs but Bill told me it didn't make it past 24.

And THAT is why many of the friends I have in this hobby won't spend the big bucks on these imports sight unseen.

I only see one ad on Kingsnake for Quads. Is that the importer you refer too?

 

[chameleonneeds]

Why not just consider how lucky you are to have this opportunity to work with these chameleons.

 

[ponders]

I only see one ad on Kingsnake for Quads. Is that the importer you refer too?

No, that's not the one.

 

[OldChamKeeper]

I just took a peek on KS and the ad I previously saw is not there now. The one ad for Quads that is up is just like Tylene said, that's not it.

Don't any of you get me wrong, I know full well the range of possibilities that come with imported chameleons. Better than many and less than some. My comments are simply a combination of sharing the results of this current import we had with a species in much demand by some of our forum's more experienced members and the other side being how it relates to the topic of this very thread.

"Be happy you are working with this species" Seriously that person doesn't get it. When you are trying to work with any species, go in on a large importation of that species, spend fair money as a collective, and the importer gives your group the crap he can't sell online while keeping the good stuff. That is something to bring to the attention of others for multiple reasons. It also highlights nicely why in the long run the high prices we see for imports will drop. Because after more people who DO pay fair money for the imports get craptastic animals and stay connected via the 21st century equivalent of a reptile club (the internet) people won't buy the animals for those prices or they won't buy from the guys making a fast buck.

As for being sure these imports will get into the hands of people who will get them to reproduce? Seriously you said that? The best chance for that to happen was when a large collective got together and made a large payment you would think. Instead Bill already had one die any experienced keeper could have looked at and said " I shouldn't send that one out" and instead the good ones are being sold to random people online who have to ask me via a PM where can they buy Panacur or what is it. Not knocking the new folks one bit but I will point out none of them bought pairs that I am aware of, these are all solo animals that looked GREAT. Instead of a collective of serious breeders who paid for them receiving them, we got the left overs. Bill and Laurie are still working on things, maybe something will get worked out and I'd rather let them post their own topic if they choose.

This is why I won't buy a Parson's or any of the Madagascar imports in groups. Mostly my comments are meant to serve as a warning to those many readers interested in a Madagascar species. If you don't know what Panacur is, you might not have the other needed bits and pieces of knowledge to help you find a reputable seller and get an import that is "salvageable" let alone how to do that.

These forums are the #1 place to find that help. However do some homework before you dig yourself a hole.

 

[DeremensisBlue]

Folks,
These comments of disappointment come from the fact that the quad breeding coalition was the first in with an order and the first in with many thousands of dollars and promised the best pick. We expected to get in roughed up imports and were not surprised by what we got. Parasites and death and damage are all part of it. The surprise part comes when we see better looking animals out there then what we got. One would expect "best pick" to mean we got "best pick".

But the story is not complete without both sides and we are reaching out to get the other side of the story. Any update would be done in a separate thread and within the guidelines of this forum. This forum is not the Board of Inquiry and so topics will be kept appropriate to those guidelines.


To those who are expressing different variations of the theme "stop complaining", know that "complaining" to this forum does no good for us whether you are sympathetic or critical. But it is useful for us all to share our experiences as to what is going on in the industry. Information is power and can help you make better decisions. We are always getting new people on this forum and it is important we share what it is like with imports - both the animal conditions and the type of transaction to expect.
This is a note of caution to any breeding group that thinks they are doing something good. The importers generally do not hold your values. There is no need to demonize them, though. Regardless of their motivation, they are providing a service which there is a demand for. As with all businesses, the cream of the crop rises and the rest fall.

I am thankful that we were able to receive what we did, regardless of any perceived miscommunication. As far as the chameleon community is concerned, we have a great chance for at least some success in a substantial propagation of this species. I look forward to sharing good news with you all.

Bill

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

You are 100% correct on this. The importer has some nice animals up on Kingsnake and I sure as hell won't spend any $$$ with him again. I hear Laurie is having some issues with hers but I don't know the details. Maybe she'll share if it doesn't get worked out privately.

Honestly sucks the hobby is still filled with people not as interested in the animals as they are in some $$$$. However that is how it was back in the 80's and 90's.

These posts are interesting since actually the importer/retailer that I am assuming everyone bought these bought these Trioceros quadricornis from, is the retailer/importer I paid top dollar or in the ballpark of thousands for my female Calumma parsonii parsonii Trudy. I receive pictures of more than a half dozen 6 month old Orange Eye Calumma parsonii parsonii to go through and pick out the Orange Eye Parsonii of my choice. Which is far from the situation that is going on with everyone and their Trioceros quadricornis order. Everyone should have a follow up conversation with the owner if he is the same retailer/importer that we are talking about. The conversations I have had with him is to expect orders from him once a year from Cameroon. If you are some of his best clients for those shipments/imports from Cameroon I expect something absolutely should be worked out.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[Kent67]

Unfortunately, there are already a couple of BOI threads about him. I also have two friends who each purchased large groups of imports from him and won't again. I really feel for you guys.

 

[Mike Fisher]

That's the problem with buying large lots, you get a discount price and not the best animals. Doesn't matter what importer, just the way it is. Full price buyers will get the best. I'm sure the logic on the importers side would be that the less healthy ones were going to experienced keepers and they have a better chance. If I were an importer, I would not send out the very best on the quantity orders and then send the thin sickly looking ones out to the full price buyers. That would be bad business.

You have to see both sides. The importer has no control over what they get in and have to make the best life and death choices for each animal. I know I would not want to be in those shoes.

Yeah, it sucks to be on the receiving end of it for sure. Been there done that. I recently lost 80 percent of a breeding group within three days. I only got credit for two animals that passed in the first 12 hours.

Anyway, good luck to everyone who got these and I hope an agreement can be reached.

 

[eisentrauti]

As I have imported personally from Madagascar before I've seen the (ridiculous) prices some months ago and wondered if it was just my exporteur who went nuts or if there was a general increase in prices. After talking with other people involved in import/export and reading through parts of this thread I finally see that it's really not just my guy down there
People asked my about an import when the first rumors of quotas started, but after I got an updated an exciting stocklist, I knew that it was difficult if not impossible to import most species without making losses. I was really interested in a group of oshaughnessyi and one of the uncommon parsonii local forms but those prices...
I have no problem paying several 100$ for reptiles, even if they are WC and even if those are chameleons and no geckos or monitors, but having imported from Madagascar before I knew that prices don't really affect quality there. This and the high minimum orders (10k) made the decision easy.
I hope the good old supply/demand will change those prices

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

As I have imported personally from Madagascar before I've seen the (ridiculous) prices some months ago and wondered if it was just my exporteur who went nuts or if there was a general increase in prices. After talking with other people involved in import/export and reading through parts of this thread I finally see that it's really not just my guy down there
People asked my about an import when the first rumors of quotas started, but after I got an updated an exciting stocklist, I knew that it was difficult if not impossible to import most species without making losses. I was really interested in a group of oshaughnessyi and one of the uncommon parsonii local forms but those prices...
I have no problem paying several 100$ for reptiles, even if they are WC and even if those are chameleons and no geckos or monitors, but having imported from Madagascar before I knew that prices don't really affect quality there. This and the high minimum orders (10k) made the decision easy.
I hope the good old supply/demand will change those prices

Benny

Even before the quotas were made the prices for the Madagascar species that were on the new quota species list were high? Thorsten was asking and sold his Calumma oshaughnessyi pair for over 3200.00 Euro's? Pairs are being sold in the USA for $2200.00. Now that they are officially legal or accepted in the USA as non black market animals they should not be a somewhat more expensive for being on the books and managed legal exports and imports? I think they should be somewhat more expensive however that is the price of being clean. The prices I have heard for minimum orders were higher (ball park prices over 50K) than what you posted and of course Madagascar exporters after 19 years are going to have high expectations for exporting prospects. However I think the prices are going to drop after a couple of years somewhat to the beginning asking prices as they are wild caught chameleons. If you look European posted price ranges of non CITES quotas species before the new quotas they were about from $500 to $3200 Euro's a pair for non CITES Madagascar Calumma and Furcifer. Those prices were from before the new quotas are still about the same as the prices that are for sale now with the USA prices for example Furcifer campani $500 a pair in the USA and Calumma parsonii parsonii $4500.00 a pair in the USA. However now that those species are legal why should they not have a somewhat increased price range to have legal industry? If you are accomplished breeding these species Agriculturally/Business speaking the return is greater as well?

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[Todnedo]

A little bird told me Calumma oshaughnessyi leave Madagascar for 400 bucks and Calumma Parsonii for about 700.00....... thats before shipping and cites paperwork fees.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

A little bird told me Calumma oshaughnessyi leave Madagascar for 400 bucks and Calumma Parsonii for about 700.00....... thats before shipping and cites paperwork fees.

Steve

Thanks for contributing. That seems a somewhat accurate estimate from the exporters and correlates to the estimates I have talked too about ball park import prices I have had with importers. I could probably justify $800 or more for Calumma parsonii parsonii especially if they are the without a doubt healthy Parsonii of the rarer phases or locals, along with how much the species is marked up here in the states. These prices would become even more justifiable if these Calumma parsonii are sexable ranched or farmed specimens and not wild caught specimens. After the new species have been established for a year or 2 it would not surprise me if their was a bit of a retail price drop though. Especially with an established market and when captive bred new quota Madagascar Calumma and Furcifer chameleons become available to keepers in the USA or North America.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich