Swollen Eye Tissue, please help

[MrColors]

Hello,

I have a Jackson's chameleon. The tissue around his pupil is swollen almost completely over the pupil. I took him to the vet as soon as I noticed it (July 7th). However, I live in an area where there is a vet who takes reptiles, but they are by no means reptile experts (the nearest reptile vet is 3 hours away). They had never seen a chameleon before, and had no idea what to do. Before taking him in, I had done some research on the internet and printed out this link (http://www.azeah.com/Care-Sheets.asp?id=116) and brought it to them. This is what they based their diagnosis on.

The picture on this link is very much what my chameleon’s eye looks like, save that the tissue in his eye is light pink and that the swelling is more evenly dispersed around his eye. It also looks as though there may be some scales missing on the top part of his eyelid. The vet told me that they believed he may have a Vitamin A deficiency, so I bought “Fluker’s Liquid Vitamin” which boasts 913,240 IU of Vitamin A. I give him two drops twice a week. They also gave me some Neobacimyx Ophthalmic gel (triple antibiotic/steroid), instructing me to put some in his eye and smear some on his eyelid twice daily. I have done so religiously. He also gets calcium powder on his crickets, he has correct temperature and humidity, his cage is immaculate, and he has running water. He is handled twice a day, he has UVB and basking lights as well as a red heat at night. However, he does not seem to be improving. If anything, his eye has swelled more.

He is very young yet (I do not own a scale sensitive enough to register his weight, and they did not weigh him at the vet), and they told me that the amount of blood they would need to perform a CBC or any other blood-work would be too much to remove from him, so no blood tests have been performed on him. I brought in a fecal sample as well, which they had to send out to test. Both the fecal float and fecal direct came back clean.

What I am wondering is if there is anything you would recommend to try, or any tests you could recommend for me to request be run, or any tips or info you might have? I have never had a chameleon before, but I am doing my best. I want him to be the happiest and healthiest he possibly can be.

Thanks so much!
Margalit

 

[sandrachameleon]

Be cautious of giving too much vitamin to a jackson.
I would make the three hour journey to the vet that actually knows something.

I suggest you answer all the questions in the "how to ask for help" sticky questionaire. And post photos.

 

[MrColors]

Thanks. Where do I go to fill out said questionairre? (sorry, new to the forum)

 

[sandrachameleon]

Thanks. Where do I go to fill out said questionairre? (sorry, new to the forum)

actually, my bad for not noticing you're a new member! welcome. sorry you're starting off here with a difficulty with your chameleon.

Here is a link to the questions: https://www.chameleonforums.com/how-ask-help-66/

Just copy and paste into a reply on this thread, and add your answers

 

[MrColors]

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - Jackson, male, unknown age (quite young), in my care since 6/23
Handling - once or twice daily
Feeding - His main diet is crickets, [though he loves the occasional moth (I am wary of wild insects). I would love to get more variety in his diet, but he won't eat the mealworms (neither by hand nor worm dish). I plan on ordering hornworms or mantis.] Around 6-8 small every other day (He liked large as well, but I think they may be a bit too big)? The crickets are gut-loaded at PetSmart where I buy them (I work there so I know what they get), and when I have extra I have them in a cricket-keeper with various veggies.
Supplements - I dust them with Exo-Terra Calcium + D3. I have been giving him 2 drops twice a week of Fluker's Liquid Vitamin. However, I have recently been in contact with a reptile specialist from Seattle who has told me that this is a toxic dose. I am not sure how much is a good dose.
Watering - He has a running waterfall in his cage. I mist him at least twice daily with warm water. I have just today taken him out and u sed a cloth to squeeze warm water on him (he LOVES it). I treat the water with StressCoat currently, as I am out of ReptiSafe. I am told that this is safe for him.
Fecal Description - Consistency of a raw egg; clear portion and a yellow-white portion; it was tested on July 7th and both the float and direct came back negative

Cage Info:
Cage Type - Screen; 18x18x36; sits atop a 31 inch tall table
Lighting - UVB- Reptisun 5.0 Tropical; Day Heat- ExoTerra 50w Intense Basking Spot (He has climbing places and vines to be able to get about 2 inches from the light); Night Heat- All Living Things Infared Heat Bulb 50w. The night heat as well as the UVB and day heat combo each get about equal time.
Temperature - The thermometer, near the top, reads a little over 75 during the day and closer to 70 at night. I have an ExoTerra thermometer/humidity gauge.
Humidity - Humidity levels never fall below 50% I mist him and his surroundings daily. The constant running water also helps.
Plants - no live plants
Placement - His cage is on the first floor of my home in an extroardinarily low-traffic room. No other animals are allowed in. There is a large window in the room (not near enough for drafts) so he does get some natural sunlight as well. There are no nearby vents.
Location - Bismarck, North Dakota

Current Problem - See above posts. Update: I have been emailing with a reptile specialist in Seattle (Adolf Maas), who has instructed me that the antibiotic given to me by my local vet is toxic for chameleons. I found this out only today, after 8 days of use twice daily. Obviously, I will not be using it any more and will be contacting the local vet for some words. He also told me that the dose of Vitamin Supplements I had been giving him (I followed instructions on the bottle) was a toxic amount. Again, I have discontinued the use, as I am not sure what IS a good dose for him.
His eye has gotten more swollen. He can barely see out of it, I am sure. When I was pouring warm water on him today, I made sure to pour some over his eye. He would tilt it up towards me, open it to let water in, and then pull it back into his head and move it around before repeating.
I would very much appreciate any ideas or suggesetions for his eye, as well as any other things such as where is the best place to order insects (as I said before, mealworms did not interest him, although he loves things that flutter around. I want him to have a well-varied diet); or anything else you may think of. Mr. Colors is my first chameleon, and I want to make sure I am doing everything right.
Thanks so much!
p.s. here are two pics--one full body and one of his eye

 

[sandrachameleon]

I am not whatsoever a jackson's expert, but I agree that's too much supplement for a jack.
Hopefully some jackson keepers will join this discussion.
you may find Hoj's blog entry useful in regards to supplements, and generally: https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/hoj/634-montane-chameleon-care-info.html

I think the water (or a saline) rinse will not hurt, and could very well help.

Is your temp/humidity guage the analog or digital? cage might be slightly too warm - what is the temp reading at the bottom of the cage?
you likely do NOT need a night bulb of any kind

waterfalls inside the cage are generally a bad idea - breeding grounds for bacterial.

I still sugggest visiting the reptile specialist vet - maybe phone ahead or email with pictures and ask if this is a condition they are familiary with in this particular type of chameleon.

 

[Elizadolots]

Hi!

He's a lovely animal.

This board does not recommend a waterfall because can be a big bacteria problem (which could cause infections.....)

I would suggest removing the waterfall, putting in a "dripper" so there is water (you'll need drainage!) and increase the length of your mistings. I know you didn't tell me how long you mist, but I still feel comfortable saying you should mist for longer. I think you should mist a quart of water every time.

Your fecal description sounds like he hadn't eaten much at that point....there should be a substantial black/grey/brown "lump" in the poop.

It sounds like your doctor was a bit of a hack...you might want to report him.

As to feeders, check the board sponsors for lots of great providers. I also really recommend Armstrong Crickets and Petco Online. I have always gotten clean, great crickets from them and found their customer service to be great. Armstrong has an amazing price if you can have them shipped to a business address (I do that).

 

[Alexl]

I would definitely take the three hours trip to the experienced vet. If this isn't possible at all, your local vet may call the other one to talk about your case. There are lots of thing to know for a non-repile-specialist before treating a chameleon successfully.

Your second picture looks like pus between eye ball and eyelid. In this case the eye needs to be flushed by putting a little buttoned cannula inside to clean everything out and take a look whether the eye ball already has a defect or something (an experienced vet can do this, I don't think someone who never handled a chameleon should try...). I even recommend a bacterial swab and a resistance test, too. Not all antibiotics can fight all bacteria and not each drug is a good idea for your chameleon.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

It sounds like your doctor was a bit of a hack...you might want to report him.

I strongly resent this comment. Report him for what exactly? He told him up front he was no expert and not seen a chameleon before. Believe it or not there is not a class on chameleons in vet school. Most docs get almost no reptile training, and a lot of the training they do get is focused on turtles, which are very suspectible to Hypovitaminosis A. Your doc was right in line with what I've seen from many other dog/cat vets trying to decipher chameleon health issues. For a Jackson especially I agree that Hypovitaminosis A is less likely. But that is no reason to suggest jeopardizing a young vet's career as he did not intentionally put your animal in harm's way or do something that is not medically appropriate that could kill your cham. Reporting him would not even work as he did not really do anything wrong here. And the bloodwork hesitation is reasonable - if you don't have the machines that can run reptile blood in the clinic you need larger volumes of blood to send to a lab, and size does restrict how much you can safely take. I've seen plenty of people who could go a reptile specialist that's further away or more expensive but chose to go to a vet that will see them for less even though they don't know as much. That's not the vet's fault, that lies on the owner. I'm sure that if this cham went to a more knowledgable vet and got a different diagnosis the original vet would be interested to hear about it as a learning opportunity for the next one he sees. Inexperience is not the same as ignorance.

Apologies for derailing the issue a little. I agree about removing the waterfall and stopping that amount of vitamin A as Jackson's can be particularly sensitive to oversupplementation. Some saline flushes of the eye and some shower treatments may help. The ointment they gave you is fine to use if your cham will let you. Another possible cause for this type of thing is a blocked nasolacrimal duct, which allows stuff from the eye to drain through the nose. Or it could be a conjunctivitis based on your description, which could be helped by the ointment. It may be secondary to something caught in the eye, so flushing could help get the irritant out. If the eye does not improve over the next few days you should go to the reptile vet that might have more experience with chameleons.

 

[MrColors]

No, the ointment isn't fine--the reptile specialist told me it was highly toxic. And what would be a good dripper? How do I do drainage?
Thanks for all responses sooo much!!!

 

[sandrachameleon]

I agree we cant be upset with a vet that tells you they dont know alot about chameleons and then just does the best they can.

what is the ointment, exactly?

Here's some info on drippers you might find useful.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/drippers-19143/#post177210
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/draetish/225-making-dripper-set-up.html
But really it can be as easy as getting a plastic tub, and poking a hole or two in the bottom with a needle, putting the tub on top of the cage and filling it with water.
Note: By using fresh vegetables and fruits as a significant part of your feeder insect gut-load, you can ensure better hydration of the prey items and, thereby, better hydration of your chameleon.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Oh so your cham went to the reptile specialist? What did they think was going on? Did they have other treatment suggestions? Interesting about the eye ointment - I'll have to look into that to learn more about it!

 

[MrColors]

No, I haven't seen a specialist--I only spoke with one via email. The vet I'd went to refunded my money for the ointment that the specialist said was toxic (Neobacimyx Ophthalmic), and gave me some Gentamicin Ophthalmic Drops to use on him three times a day. I am checking with the more local specialist (the first one I had contacted was in Washington State; this one is the one 3 hours away) to see if that medicine is alright before I begin administering it. Poor little guy has been through enough. They will be getting back to me tomorrow.
In the meantime, I have been giving him daily "baths" in which he sits on my hand and I squeeze warm water over him, which he absoutely loves, and he cleans his eye a lot during this.
Also, I am unable to get a dripper (I have absolutely no way to get a drainage system), so I have resolved to continue with the waterfall, and clean it thoroughly and often (it has a filter).

Thanks again to everyone for posting!!! All the tips help a lot!

 

[ealizard]

you can use a cup with a hole poked in it with ice cubes or just water to dip ,and let it get cought by a tupperware with a piece of screen bent up in to stop splashing and if something gets in it it could get out ,just empty daily ,good luck .

 

[MrColors]

yeah awesome idea! So I just poke a hole in the bottom of a cup, set it on top of my cage so it drips through the mesh into a tupperware. How does the chameleon access it? (stupid question, I know, but I want to get everything just right) I'm assuming I should have it dripping near a branch that he sits on or something. And icewater? I thought they preferred warm?

 

[sandrachameleon]

.
Also, I am unable to get a dripper (I have absolutely no way to get a drainage system), so I have resolved to continue with the waterfall, and clean it thoroughly and often (it has a filter).

Put a second container (shallow enough a chameleon could climb out if needs be, or simply covered with screen) under where the extra water drips. Empty the water from the catch container as needed. Drainage solved.

I doubt there is any way for you to clean the INSIDES of the waterfall, the tubes where you cannot see will build up with groadiness, even if you clean the rest thoroughly and often. But if youre resolved to this ( and i honestly think that would be a poor decision), at least do the cleaning daily with not just water, but with vinegar followed by BOILING water, or with HPeroxide. Cleaning it will take far more time and be far less useful than using a dripper.

 

[sandrachameleon]

I'm assuming I should have it dripping near a branch that he sits on or something. And icewater? I thought they preferred warm?

yes exactly, have it splash a little onto a leaf or a branch.
And you're right, dont use icecubes, use room temp water.

 

[MrColors]

Alrighty. And this will be enough water for him? It just doesn't seem like a lot.

Also, the reptile specialist called back and said new eye drops are fine unless injected into the blood stream. Gave him first dose just now. I also took him outside to try basking in the real sun for a while. I don't think he liked it very much--too stressful. He's pretty shy oh well

 

[sandrachameleon]

have it drip with around one drip per second (or more) continuing for at least 10 minutes at a time, 2-4 times a day, along with your misting.

 

[Elizadolots]

I didn't mean to offend, but surely there are resources a vet can refer to in order to get information when faced with an animal they have not seen. Hack might have been too strong a word, but the vet should certainly have done more than read the printout the owner brought and base his diagnosis and treatment on that. Prescribing a toxic dose of anything, regardless of the circumstances is at best irresponsible and, I think, does warrant a complaint being made. He should have contacted a vet with reptile experience if he was so unsure of the proper treatment.

Mr. Colors, one thing we seemed to have missed:

He is handled twice a day, he has UVB and basking lights as well as a red heat at night.

Please take the red heat light out at night. People here have done studies of their babies and found that the red light at night retards growth. From that I conclude it's not good for them and it's not going to become good for them once they reach adulthood. Unless your house gets unusually cold (below 50 degrees) your chameleon will appreciate the cool down. If you do let the house get cold, then get a ceramic heat emitter.

You can buy a small dripper with an adjustable valve or just use a plastic bottle with a good size pin hole in it. Tightening and loosening the cap can adjust the flow.

Drainage can be managed many ways. Here's an example: you can get an inexpensive table, cut a good size hole in it, put a bucket under the hole. Drill a hole in the center of your cage bottom and put the cage on the table...if the water doesn't seem to be going into the hole, you can put a rock next to it and/or sand the area around the hole down to improve water flow. You just empty the bucket periodically.