Supplementing / MBD

[GabeCastro]

So this past month i've been helping my chameleon fight 2 parasites. Coccidia & Pinworms are the 2, which both cause a lost of appetite. Jasper, My chameleon doesn't eat anything but an occasional black soldier fly. Yesterday i took in a fecal sample, got it tested and found out today he passed them both. So i'm hoping he's back to 100%.

Anyways, Him not eating worries me because he's lost about 4-5 grams of weight this past month and I haven't been giving him his proper supplements for an entire month. Can't dust insects if he's not eating...Tried force feeding, but I don't want to do this.

Last month during his vet visit my vet gave Jasper a Calcium/Vitamin A shot. Glad he did this because it'll help jasper out in the long run.

I just emailed my vet and told him I was worried about Jaspers not getting his proper supplements and that i'm trying to avoid any signs of MBD. " I " recommended my vet doing another calcium/vitamin A shot and he said it'll be good if we did and also mentioned an appetite stimulant, Metrondiazole.

Jaspers under a arcadia 6% uvb from 7am-7pm, eats calcium worm flies, and i've given him calcium water drops that he drinks here and there. Stools are black/brown w/ white urates.

Should i worry about giving him these shots? What else could I do? He doesn't eat anything unless it flies, and it's damn near impossible to find big flying bugs online. I can try WC moths, and my vet also recommended that aswell. Waiting to order some Banana Roaches, hopefully these trigger Jasper to eat.

So my overall question is...How long would it take MBD to start showing signs with Jasper not taking any type of supplements? Should I go ahead and do these shots for Jasper?

 

[Olimpia]

That's probably a question for one of our in-forum vets, so send a message to Ferretinmyshoes or Dr. O and point them to this thread in case neither of them see it.

However, it is my understanding that Jasper will not develop a severe deficiency in a month's time. Part of why your bones are there is to act as a calcium reserve, so that you can withdraw from them when you need to. Obviously, a healthy animal would replenish these reserves fairly often, so you never get to the point of MBD, where your bones have been sucked dry and there isn't enough calcium in the blood to run other bodily functions. Sooo... I it is my humble opinion that one month is probably not enough time to cause serious harm, especially with that calcium shot beforehand (and also that healthy animals go weeks without eating of their own volition and don't tip over dead from mineral deficiency). But then again I'm not a medical professional, so listen to me with skepticism.

That said, how have you tried force-feeding in the past?
Usually the least horrible method is to take one hand from behind their head and put your index and thumb on each cheek. This usually makes them open their mouths and you can slip in a nice juicy cricket and then let go so they can chew. And while they're chewing maybe even slip in another cricket with tweezers. There are much more invasive ways of doing it but usually require 2 people and I rather not have to recommend those if this other method works for you. Usually the cheek touching trick works on just about everyone except the most docile of docile chameleons!

Although I wonder if the vets will tell you not to do anything for a few days while the meds wear off. He may regain his appetite on his own in a few days. That I don't know, you'll have to wait to hear from them or ask your own vet.

 

[GabeCastro]

That's probably a question for one of our in-forum vets, so send a message to Ferretinmyshoes or Dr. O and point them to this thread in case neither of them see it.

However, it is my understanding that Jasper will not develop a severe deficiency in a month's time. Part of why your bones are there is to act as a calcium reserve, so that you can withdraw from them when you need to. Obviously, a healthy animal would replenish these reserves fairly often, so you never get to the point of MBD, where your bones have been sucked dry and there isn't enough calcium in the blood to run other bodily functions. Sooo... I it is my humble opinion that one month is probably not enough time to cause serious harm, especially with that calcium shot beforehand (and also that healthy animals go weeks without eating of their own volition and don't tip over dead from mineral deficiency). But then again I'm not a medical professional, so listen to me with skepticism.

That said, how have you tried force-feeding in the past?
Usually the least horrible method is to take one hand from behind their head and put your index and thumb on each cheek. This usually makes them open their mouths and you can slip in a nice juicy cricket and then let go so they can chew. And while they're chewing maybe even slip in another cricket with tweezers. There are much more invasive ways of doing it but usually require 2 people and I rather not have to recommend those if this other method works for you. Usually the cheek touching trick works on just about everyone except the most docile of docile chameleons!

Although I wonder if the vets will tell you not to do anything for a few days while the meds wear off. He may regain his appetite on his own in a few days. That I don't know, you'll have to wait to hear from them or ask your own vet.

Thanks Olimpia!

Glad you're here to always help...

I'll go ahead and PM both the vets, i tried staying away from that. I know they're busy with 100's of other questions, but hey...It's worth a shot.

I was thinking the same thing staying off the meds for awhile, but when i mentioned doing the shots again for November my vet encourage me to go for it and recommended some Metrondiazole aswell for his appetite.

Thanks again Olimpia, I'll be sure to send the vets a PM

 

[sandrachameleon]

I also doubt a month without supplements will have serious long term implications.

And I too encourage you try to "force" feed just a little, if he's lost 10% or more of body weight and is still not eating.

I find grasping firmly but not roughly with thumb and forefinger at the neck, behind the casque, will piss off any chameleon sufficiently for it to gape. Pop a dusted silkworm or cricket in the mouth using the other hand, and release your hold. And as they chew you can slip in another feeder (I just risk my fingers rather than use tweezers as I dont like the thought of an accidental bite down on hard tweezers).

You can also smash up a few feeders with a little water and calcium supplement (liquid or powder) to make a bug juice, and put that in a needless syringe with a rubber tip. Coax the animal to open up and carefully put the rubber tip in throat far enough to get it past the airway and into stomach. I think this is more stressful though - on both human and cham.

 

[GabeCastro]

I also doubt a month without supplements will have serious long term implications.

And I too encourage you try to "force" feed just a little, if he's lost 10% or more of body weight and is still not eating.

I find grasping firmly but not roughly with thumb and forefinger at the neck, behind the casque, will piss off any chameleon sufficiently for it to gape. Pop a dusted silkworm or cricket in the mouth using the other hand, and release your hold. And as they chew you can slip in another feeder (I just risk my fingers rather than use tweezers as I dont like the thought of an accidental bite down on hard tweezers).

You can also smash up a few feeders with a little water and calcium supplement (liquid or powder) to make a bug juice, and put that in a needless syringe with a rubber tip. Coax the animal to open up and carefully put the rubber tip in throat far enough to get it past the airway and into stomach. I think this is more stressful though - on both human and cham.

Thanks for the info Sandra!

Glad to hear that Jasper should be "ok" with out some supplements for awhile. I have tired forcefeeding him, but it stresses me out shoving something down his throat. For one, i have to physically do it. Two, I feel like he hates me :'(

He's the most docile of the docile chams, he won't huff and puff at his own reflection, never attempts to bite me, he has bit me once though...But it was my fault trying to force feed a cricket with my fingers. So tweezers might be the best bet. When i give him his meds, I open his mouth with a credit card and my girlfriend puts the meds in for me. So it's a 2 person job regardless.

I'll try the side of the head technique tomorrow. Hopefully it works out. He really shows 0 aggression.

The bug shake sounds easier, But i'm not down shoving a syringe down his throat. And sometimes i'll go for a force feed but he'll regurgitate it out. Keeps pushing his tongue out and wont let it go down. When he does this, i just let him be. Also when I forcefeed successfully, he'll only eat about 2 crickets max...Think ima aim for dubias for now. Much more of a better food choice and if he can eat two, that'll be perfect.

If Dr. O and Ferret give me the OK for the calcium shots/vit A shots i'll go ahead and do them. If not, Hopefully I get other advice. But as of now...forcefeeding seems like my best option.

Thanks again Sandra! I've learned allot of cham info from your blog posts!

Gabe

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

MBD is something that manifests due to a chronic calcium intake deficiency that causes the body to strip calcium out of the bones where it's stored. It sounds like he's still eating a little isn't he? And before this happened a few weeks ago he was eating a good diet with normal supplementation, so he should have plenty stored up in reserves even if he did start pulling some from his bones, which I wouldn't expect at this stage. He should not be in danger of MBD yet, especially if he still has UVB and everything else he needs. The body keeps a little calcium on hand during a surplus so that it can use that on days when they don't get as much or when demand is higher. Even only eating a few black soldier flies that should provide enough calcium to keep him in a maintainable state since I know as larvae they are high in calcium, plus he got a boost from his injection a month ago.

I would not do another calcium or vitamin A injection unless on bloodwork his calcium and phosphorus ratio looked like it was confirmed MBD, which I wouldn't expect at this stage. While it is very difficult to overdose on oral calcium supplementation, the same is not necessarily true of injections of calcium. With oral, the GI tract has the option of taking what it needs and not more, and that is dictated by individual metabolic needs. With injections you don't give the body any choice, which can actually be detrimental. And vitamin A can have toxic overdose effects so unless there is an indication of Hypovitaminosis A I would be very cautious with multiple injections of it. And those injections given a month ago don't go away immediately - they may have an effect for a few weeks even. So at this point I would not give the injections again.

A better alternative would be to get a liquid calcium glubionate syrup and when your cham is drinking you can drip just a small drip into his mouth then so he doesn't have to eat anything to get it if you're worried about it. Sometimes a shower session will encourage them to drink well enough to allow you to do that if he doesn't normally drink in front of you. Along the same lines you could make a liquid smoothie of collard greens, mustard greens, dandelions, or turnip greens and drip that into his mouth while he's drinking since those are all high in calcium also. If you drip that into his mouth when he's already drinking you won't have to worry about aspiration.

Metronidazole is an antibiotic, not an appetite stimulant, so I'm not sure what that's about. There's an appetite stimulant called mirtazapine used in cats and dogs, but as far as I know it is not effective in reptiles.

Hopefully that offers some info to ease your fears a bit. We stress the importance of regular supplementation so that in situations like this they will be safe until we get them back on board because they are healthy with good reserves in place. Feel free to message me anytime with questions.

 

[GabeCastro]

MBD is something that manifests due to a chronic calcium intake deficiency that causes the body to strip calcium out of the bones where it's stored. It sounds like he's still eating a little isn't he? And before this happened a few weeks ago he was eating a good diet with normal supplementation, so he should have plenty stored up in reserves even if he did start pulling some from his bones, which I wouldn't expect at this stage. He should not be in danger of MBD yet, especially if he still has UVB and everything else he needs. The body keeps a little calcium on hand during a surplus so that it can use that on days when they don't get as much or when demand is higher. Even only eating a few black soldier flies that should provide enough calcium to keep him in a maintainable state since I know as larvae they are high in calcium, plus he got a boost from his injection a month ago.

I would not do another calcium or vitamin A injection unless on bloodwork his calcium and phosphorus ratio looked like it was confirmed MBD, which I wouldn't expect at this stage. While it is very difficult to overdose on oral calcium supplementation, the same is not necessarily true of injections of calcium. With oral, the GI tract has the option of taking what it needs and not more, and that is dictated by individual metabolic needs. With injections you don't give the body any choice, which can actually be detrimental. And vitamin A can have toxic overdose effects so unless there is an indication of Hypovitaminosis A I would be very cautious with multiple injections of it. And those injections given a month ago don't go away immediately - they may have an effect for a few weeks even. So at this point I would not give the injections again.

A better alternative would be to get a liquid calcium glubionate syrup and when your cham is drinking you can drip just a small drip into his mouth then so he doesn't have to eat anything to get it if you're worried about it. Sometimes a shower session will encourage them to drink well enough to allow you to do that if he doesn't normally drink in front of you. Along the same lines you could make a liquid smoothie of collard greens, mustard greens, dandelions, or turnip greens and drip that into his mouth while he's drinking since those are all high in calcium also. If you drip that into his mouth when he's already drinking you won't have to worry about aspiration.

Metronidazole is an antibiotic, not an appetite stimulant, so I'm not sure what that's about. There's an appetite stimulant called mirtazapine used in cats and dogs, but as far as I know it is not effective in reptiles.

Hopefully that offers some info to ease your fears a bit. We stress the importance of regular supplementation so that in situations like this they will be safe until we get them back on board because they are healthy with good reserves in place. Feel free to message me anytime with questions.

Thank you so much Ferret! I really appreciate you taking the time to educate me on a few things...Really amazes me how much of a help this site is. Especially having great herp vets roaming around

So from the sounds of it, I shouldn't give Jasper the extra shots. For one I feel a bit better, gives my bank account a rest and my girlfriend at ease too haha.

I do have some "reptaid" would you suggest using the recommended dosage for this? I've heard it builds their appetite back. So i bought it awhile back.

As for the shower, Jasper HATES it. Always runs away and tries to climb up me. He won't just sit in the shower on a plant to chill. He's always on the move. But he does drink infront of me, He actually waits by his dripper so i could put the hose infront of his face. I'll get that liquid calcium glubionate syrup and give it a try while he's drinking.

I've had Jasper for about 2 months now, and he's about 7 months old. I have NO idea what the petstore was housing him in, supplementing him with, etc. When i got him he was tested for coccidia & pinworms. So, This is why i'm really worried about Jasper not getting his proper supplements. I've never had a real solid week where he would eat 10-15 dusted crickets a day. Most he's eaten a day was about 6, and that was when I first brought him home. IF, I do decide to get the calcium shots could they atleast hold off Jaspers feeding supplement schedule for a month? So instead of dusting, slipping calcium in his mouth, making shakes for a straight month could I just get the calcium shot every first of the month to be on the safe side?

I just don't want Jasper to get to that point where he's starting to use his calcium researvs. Before the weather got nasty outside I would let him bask in direct sunlight for a good 30-45 minutes a day.

Only thing I'm worried as of now is Jasper not eating, which causes me to stress about him getting MBD. I'm stressing that he's not eating, so his entire supplement schedule is entirely off. The only thing he eats is black soldier flies. But i think i'm down to one or two left...Jasper ate about 4 on Monday, 4 on Tuesday, 2-3 yesterday, and 1-2 today. I ordered some hornworms & butterworms so hopefully he'll eat these atleast. I have 100 calcium worms in room temp trying to make them pupate. I can forcefeed him some calcium worms and a few hornworms to keep me on edge. Tried that with a silkworm about a week ago and it didn't work out too well...so hopefully he eats the hornworms on his own.

I have 1 large adult male dubia. He has giant wings, so hopefully he goes for that. If he does, then My plan was to order 50 Giant Banana Roaches. Also wanted to try a few mantids, but they're on the expensive side.

All I want to see is Jasper to have consistency in his eating habbits. Where I can dust his feeders and know he'll eat all/most of them.

Again, thank you so much Ferret...I'm so glad theres knowledgeable people around here to help me out. Also sorry for the extremely long comments

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

I don't have any experience with reptaid personally. You could try it if you'd like. If you can get him to take that or medications then you should have no problem adding a drop of liquid calcium to the regimen every few days, which is much safer than injections. I would not pursue frequent calcium injections. Even in cases of severe MBD we usually only give 1 or maybe 2 injections, and that's to replenish the deficiency from depleted reserves, and the rest of treatment is oral supplementation. Liquid calcium is more concentrated than the powder form. I would never consider giving frequent injections for an otherwise healthy chameleon. Injections should not be used for maintenance supplementation because that's when you get into to dangerous side effects and overdose.

 

[GabeCastro]

I don't have any experience with reptaid personally. You could try it if you'd like. If you can get him to take that or medications then you should have no problem adding a drop of liquid calcium to the regimen every few days, which is much safer than injections. I would not pursue frequent calcium injections. Even in cases of severe MBD we usually only give 1 or maybe 2 injections, and that's to replenish the deficiency from depleted reserves, and the rest of treatment is oral supplementation. Liquid calcium is more concentrated than the powder form. I would never consider giving frequent injections for an otherwise healthy chameleon. Injections should not be used for maintenance supplementation because that's when you get into to dangerous side effects and overdose.

Sounds good. I think i'll pass on the shots then. Glad you cleared that up for me

I'm surprised my vet didn't say the same thing :/

Also I looked up Metrondiazole for chameleons and all i've heard were bad reviews. So again, this surprises me that my vet would suggest this. The reviews were from many years ago so maybe they "fixed" up the Metrondiazole or something...

This morning I fed Jasper a big juicy ol' butterworm. He went for it on his own, took him awhile but he got it. Also I gave him a small/med hornworm which he ate aswell. Just put another butterworm in there to see if he'll go for it. I was shocked to see how big those butterworms were! Thought they would be the size of wax worms haha. Really praying that he starts to gain his appetite back soon. I want him to eat like a pig

 

[Olimpia]

I'm glad he's eating on his own! Remember too that at his age he's not going to eat 20 crickets like a baby might, his appetite is going to come down.and you'll have to start feeding him every other day or so anyway. So don't worry too much if he doesn't pig out like you'd like him to, as long as he's gaining weight and is jealthy, he can do very well on only a few feeders a few times a week.

 

[GabeCastro]

I'm glad he's eating on his own! Remember too that at his age he's not going to eat 20 crickets like a baby might, his appetite is going to come down.and you'll have to start feeding him every other day or so anyway. So don't worry too much if he doesn't pig out like you'd like him to, as long as he's gaining weight and is jealthy, he can do very well on only a few feeders a few times a week.

Thats true...You're def right on that. I just want to see jasper pig out...I've had all the feeders that chams would die for but he's not really eating them like i was hoping for.

But Jasper's def getting to that age where he's slowing down on his diet. Maybe i'll try and introduce a big ol' mantid for him. If he eats it, good. If not, I guess I'll have a new pet

He did lose about 4 grams from his last vet visit. He's about 46.3 grams at the moment. How heavy should a 7 month of panther be? I think i've seen a chart on here somewhere and their cham was at 80G...BUT, I know some people have smaller panthers that do perfectly fine. Maybe i got the runt of the clutch.

 

[Dr O]

gabe, i know you asked for my opinion, but ferret and olimpia basically beat me to all the punches. a few things worth reiterating-

-a loss of 4-5g on a diet that low is pretty low level weight loss in general, although i don't know if you stated what his normal weight is.

-i would NOT do injections for all the reasons ferret stated-once they're in, you can't take it back. however, oral liquid calcium at standard dose 2-3x week can help keep the boogeyman away without overdoing it.

-i have Reptaid and cannot say that i have found profound benefits with it, but some others seem to like it. in cases like this i will sometimes draw up the calcium and Reptaid in the same syringe and squirt down the back of the hatch.

-metronidazole has not been reformulated in anyway and is not a true appetite stimulant at all. however, in all animals that i have used it on that are having GI issues, it tends to make them feel better so they do go back to a more normal diet pattern. maybe that's what your vet was getting at. besides being an antibiotic, it is also anti-parasitical against protozoan/amoeba-like organisms which you would only find on a direct smear, not a float. additionally, it does have pretty powerful anti-inflammatory effects on the GI tract in general, and is used commonly in all species with IBD or similar diseases. so sometimes it is like a prescription-strength Pepto-Bismol, although of course with chams they might get so ticked about having something squirted down their throats that that alone will put them off food.

-just a tip that i mentioned in another thread recently; my favorite force-feeding lately has been to browse through until i find a white, freshly molted roach. i pinch the head off without pulling, since quite an enormous spinal cord came out the first time i did that. i roll them into a soft little burrito, coat with KY, and poke it down to their stomachs. that part is important since you don't want to leave it hanging in their esophagus if they are not swallowing right. basically the midpoint of their body is where the stomach is. i know you said that wasn't for you, but keep it in mind if anything gets more severe or for another situation.

o—

 

[GabeCastro]

gabe, i know you asked for my opinion, but ferret and olimpia basically beat me to all the punches. a few things worth reiterating-

-a loss of 4-5g on a diet that low is pretty low level weight loss in general, although i don't know if you stated what his normal weight is.

-i would NOT do injections for all the reasons ferret stated-once they're in, you can't take it back. however, oral liquid calcium at standard dose 2-3x week can help keep the boogeyman away without overdoing it.

-i have Reptaid and cannot say that i have found profound benefits with it, but some others seem to like it. in cases like this i will sometimes draw up the calcium and Reptaid in the same syringe and squirt down the back of the hatch.

-metronidazole has not been reformulated in anyway and is not a true appetite stimulant at all. however, in all animals that i have used it on that are having GI issues, it tends to make them feel better so they do go back to a more normal diet pattern. maybe that's what your vet was getting at. besides being an antibiotic, it is also anti-parasitical against protozoan/amoeba-like organisms which you would only find on a direct smear, not a float. additionally, it does have pretty powerful anti-inflammatory effects on the GI tract in general, and is used commonly in all species with IBD or similar diseases. so sometimes it is like a prescription-strength Pepto-Bismol, although of course with chams they might get so ticked about having something squirted down their throats that that alone will put them off food.

-just a tip that i mentioned in another thread recently; my favorite force-feeding lately has been to browse through until i find a white, freshly molted roach. i pinch the head off without pulling, since quite an enormous spinal cord came out the first time i did that. i roll them into a soft little burrito, coat with KY, and poke it down to their stomachs. that part is important since you don't want to leave it hanging in their esophagus if they are not swallowing right. basically the midpoint of their body is where the stomach is. i know you said that wasn't for you, but keep it in mind if anything gets more severe or for another situation.

o—

Thanks Dr. O!

So glad i had the both of you vets chime in on my situation.

Jasper was weighed in at 50g his first vet visit, which was about a month ago. I picked up a small jewelry scale and weighed him yesterday at about 46g. Trying to add allot more fatty foods to his diet. I'll try the molted dubias, I also try some super worms since they're high in fat aswell. Whats the standard weight to a 7 month old panther?

Today I tried to get his mouth open by touching/pressing really softly on the side of his head but it didn't work...Only way i can really do it is sliding a credit card between his lips to open his mouth up. Is there any technique that can help me out leaving his mouth open? He usually wiggles around allot when i'm holding him to forcefeed. And lately he's getting worse, doesn't like to be forcefed anything.

Would you recommend me going with a dose of metronidazole? It kinda sounds like it wouldn't hurt to try it out, and i'm willing to do anything to get Jasper back to feeling normal.

 

[Dr O]

Thanks Dr. O!

So glad i had the both of you vets chime in on my situation.

Jasper was weighed in at 50g his first vet visit, which was about a month ago. I picked up a small jewelry scale and weighed him yesterday at about 46g. Trying to add allot more fatty foods to his diet. I'll try the molted dubias, I also try some super worms since they're high in fat aswell. Whats the standard weight to a 7 month old panther?

Today I tried to get his mouth open by touching/pressing really softly on the side of his head but it didn't work...Only way i can really do it is sliding a credit card between his lips to open his mouth up. Is there any technique that can help me out leaving his mouth open? He usually wiggles around allot when i'm holding him to forcefeed. And lately he's getting worse, doesn't like to be forcefed anything.

Would you recommend me going with a dose of metronidazole? It kinda sounds like it wouldn't hurt to try it out, and i'm willing to do anything to get Jasper back to feeling normal.

based on your other thread that the parasites are gone, we can assume that he does have an inflammed GI tract (from the coccidia primarily). this should heal on it’s own naturally over time, and i think you also mentioned his stool now appeared normal. so i don’t think you really need it. however, a few daily doses at the low end of the dose range would be the test. after about 3 days, you will know if it’s making a difference one way or the other. and i really don’t see any harm coming from it.


here is a photo of a standard avian beak speculum

http://www.vetspecialtyproducts.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=ecommercecatalog.detail&productgroup_id=28

most herp vets will use these or somthing similar to keep the mouth open for procedures. basically you slide it into their mouth from the front to the back while holding it sideways, and then rotate 90° at the correct dimension of the speculum to the mouth (that’s why it has a smaller—>larger size variation) and it keeps the mouth wide open while you examine, force feed, whatever. i’m sure if you understand the concept, you can jury rig just about anything similar. the benefit of this over let’s say a credit card is that the mouth is wide open with the entire working field unimpeded by any instruments, so you don’t have a cham just chomping on a credit card. it takes some practice to get comforatble, and certainly 2 pairs of hands often help a lot.

as for standard weight on a 7 month old…..that varies tremendously but 50g certainly sounds like a decent part of the range to be in. maybe on the smaller side, but not by much.

 

[Dr O]

here is a photo of a standard avian beak speculum

http://www.vetspecialtyproducts.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=ecommercecatalog.detail&productgroup_id=28

most herp vets will use these or somthing similar to keep the mouth open for procedures. basically you slide it into their mouth from the front to the back while holding it sideways, and then rotate 90° at the correct dimension of the speculum to the mouth (that’s why it has a smaller—>larger size variation) and it keeps the mouth wide open while you examine, force feed, whatever. i’m sure if you understand the concept, you can jury rig just about anything similar. the benefit of this over let’s say a credit card is that the mouth is wide open with the entire working field unimpeded by any instruments, so you don’t have a cham just chomping on a credit card. it takes some practice to get comforatble, and certainly 2 pairs of hands often help a lot.

i need to add this: if you (meaning anyone reading this) don’t really know what you are doing, learn first! you can certainly do serious damage to their acrodont teeth and jawbone if you are forcing it around, and while cylindrical stainless steel usually slides in and works well, something jury-rigged cannot have any sharp or rough edges, nor any fabric or anything that their teeth will catch in. use your head!! and next time anyone is at their herp vet, i’m sure they would be happy to demonstrate ways to do it if you ask.

 

[Dr O]

these are gags typically used in dogs and cats when we need to get a tube into their stomachs for an emergency.

http://www.veterinaryconcepts.com/index.php/small-animal/mouth-gag-canine-each.html

i’m posting them b/c they work completely differently: the gag is placed in their mouth which is then closed tightly with the upper and lower canines fitting into the parallel slots (and then a large muzzle over everything to keep it in place and free hands up). then we have the front to rear round hole for us to slide a greased tube into the esophagus.

i’m pointing it out b/c it’s basically the reverse concept—makes it easy to get a tube in, but you cannot see anything as you can with a speculum.

 

[GabeCastro]

based on your other thread that the parasites are gone, we can assume that he does have an inflammed GI tract (from the coccidia primarily). this should heal on it’s own naturally over time, and i think you also mentioned his stool now appeared normal. so i don’t think you really need it. however, a few daily doses at the low end of the dose range would be the test. after about 3 days, you will know if it’s making a difference one way or the other. and i really don’t see any harm coming from it.


here is a photo of a standard avian beak speculum

http://www.vetspecialtyproducts.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=ecommercecatalog.detail&productgroup_id=28

most herp vets will use these or somthing similar to keep the mouth open for procedures. basically you slide it into their mouth from the front to the back while holding it sideways, and then rotate 90° at the correct dimension of the speculum to the mouth (that’s why it has a smaller—>larger size variation) and it keeps the mouth wide open while you examine, force feed, whatever. i’m sure if you understand the concept, you can jury rig just about anything similar. the benefit of this over let’s say a credit card is that the mouth is wide open with the entire working field unimpeded by any instruments, so you don’t have a cham just chomping on a credit card. it takes some practice to get comforatble, and certainly 2 pairs of hands often help a lot.

as for standard weight on a 7 month old…..that varies tremendously but 50g certainly sounds like a decent part of the range to be in. maybe on the smaller side, but not by much.

Geeze, I wish I could send you and ferret thank you cards lol.

I'm alittle sketched out shoving things down his throat. I'm more of a visual learner, So it would be hard on me to get Jasper to open his mouth with instruments. Especially by just reading things and trying it out for the first time. I have no clue on the type of damage I could do since I have no experience with this type of extreme chameleon care. I did read that you can choke a cham to death if you let anything pass down the wrong pipe, so this worried me about force feeding. Theres a thread on here somewhere that explains how a chams mouth works, i'll try and dig it up.

I use the credit card to get his mouth open as a prop, then he opens his mouth wider and thats when i let Jasper bite down on a feeder insect. Usually he'll contiune to chomp on it and swallow it down. I always have my girlfriend on hand, and she's more than willing to help out with holding the insects for jasper.

Tomorrow i'll try to set up an appointment to have my vet check on Jasper. Hoepfully giving him a small dose of the metronidazole. But i'm debating if I should try out the reptaid for a week or so to see if he gets any better. I did ask for hypodermic needles, So i can inject the proper dosages in a butterworm or something. How is the metronidazole given to the cham? Injection or are they drops?

I'm glad Jaspers weight isn't too bad. He doesn't look unhealthy at all, I just see other members with hefty chams eating like pigs and it worries me lol

Again, Thank you so much Dr. O! I really appreciate all the time and effort you put into your comments. Really helps me out and also improves my knowledge. Makes me a beter cham keeper aswell

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Theres a thread on here somewhere that explains how a chams mouth works, i'll try and dig it up.

Maybe this one?

Unlike in mammals where the windpipe and esophagus are basically very close to each other in the far back of the mouth, chameleons (and most reptiles) have their windpipe at the bottom middle of the mouth and the throat is much farther back. The blue arrow points to the esophagus where the food goes. The red arrow points to the glottis, or opening of the trachea where only air should go. (in this pic the glottis is closed) That tube structure that leads to it is the trachea itself. The mouth has kind of a scoop shape. So the point is, when you squirt water into the mouth it will naturally pool at the bottom unless it is swallowed immediately. And this is bad because the windpipe is right there on the bottom of the mouth, which makes it very easy for them to aspirate! This is especially true if they are stressed and hissing, because then that glottis is already open (to hiss out air) and water can go straight down into it so easily.

If you need to get extra water in (which I have to do on a daily basis for a very stubborn panther) the best way is how Olimpia described: give them something to eat and while they are chewing slowly squirt in small amounts. The glottis is closed at that point because they're eating so that is safest.

 

[GabeCastro]

Maybe this one?

Thank you!

Thats def the thread I was talking about.

you're quick!

 

[Olimpia]

A vet is usually happy to give you a couple needles to inject medication into insects, or at least, all the ones I've ever seen are. I've definitely been known to inject things like medication or liquid calcium into feeders to give a pet their dose without having to force it down their throats. As long as they eat the feeder, they get their dose.

If you got your hand on needles you could try the Reptaid (there's not a whole lot of evidence proving that it does anything but at the very least it can't hurt) WHILE feeding, so you don't really do anything different. It's easier on everyone if you aren't force feeding him several different things throughout the day!

But I don't think that he sounds or looks thing and I feel as though his appetite will increase on its own a little with a little time. Perhaps the less you mess with him the faster this will happen. Keep offering him feeders to eat (even if they are loaded with stuff) but chameleons heal best when stress is low, and the more he's messed with the longer it may take.