Sick Jackson's (probably mbd?)

C

cybercham

New Member
Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - Jackson's Chameleon, Male, approx. 1.5 years old, in care for 1 year.
Handling - In the warmers months seasons (colorado) about 2 times a week.
Feeding - Only crickets, about 2-4 a day but on demand mostly. Gut loaded with Leafy greens (spring mix) and whatever fruit we had around mostly strawberries and apples.
Supplements - We had reptivite with d3 and used it 1-2 a month and used to gutload crickets with flukers calcium gell water.
Watering - We have one of those jugs of water where you pull the spout out. This would be set to drip about 1drop/sec. Mist about twice a day until all the plants leaves are saturated and dripping. We used to see him drinking regularly from the leaves.

Cage Info:
Cage Type - Custom made all screen enclosure. About 1.5'(l)x3'(w)x4'(h)
Lighting - Three 100w cfl for most of the light. One incandescent for basking (72w) used to have one (13w) exoterra UVB100 cfl over basking area (replaced after about 8 months with same model) Just replaced last week with a zoo-med reptisun 5.0 (26w) extended tube cfl. All lights are on a single timer that's set to about 11.5 hours of light a day.
Temperature - Cage floor is about room temperature (70deg F) basking is about 85deg. Lowest overnight temp is maybe 65 deg. We have a temperature/hydrometer gauge that is Velcro'ed to the top middle of the cage(not directly under basking spot) since it's velcro'ed we can move it around to various parts of the cage.
Humidity - Humidity is about 60% usually as measured at the top of the cage by our hydrometer. We have a humidifier running on a timer for about 12/24hrs, and we mist the cage if humidity drops significantly.
Plants - We have a ficus(benjamin) and umbrella tree. The basking area has a fake vine feature.
Placement - It used to be in the living room with very little(if any) natural sunlight. Now it has been moved last week to near a widow with shades over the parts that can't be opened (to prevent overheating) the window is opened if it's warm out so that unfiltered sunlight can in parts of the cage. Before it was moved it didn't get any breeze besides people walking by, now it gets some breeze from the open window. The top of cage is about 5 feet from the floor, but only 4' of vertical cage area.
Location - Colorado

Current Problem -
I believe that my Cham has moderate MBD because we stopped supplementing him with calcium at all about 2 months ago. Due to my roommates read that the flukers calcium water gel and flukers calcium gutload were not so good. So we got a sponge for the crickets to drink water from and we started gutloading with just leafy greens and some fruit. Maybe very occasionally using the flukers products again when we were feeling lazy.

Reptar (our jackson) got very lethargic and I became concerned so I used the Reptivite with d3 on a couple of feedings in a row(bad idea probably). I only did a couple of days in a row because he didn't seem to be eating them and the powder was coming off. That was about a month ago.

That didn't seem to help and I haven't used the reptivite since b/c I know it's bad to over-supplement. He seemed to get worse and would have muscle spasms sometimes (sign of MBD right?) and his grip became very week and he stopped moving much at all. He started closing his eyes occasionally while the lights were on.

I knew at this point something was seriously wrong so I started searching online and these forums for answers. It seemed to me that is was probably MBD b/c of very little calcium supplement over the last few months.
I took him to the vet and he seemed to agree based on my accounts. Reptar was given a calcium shot to the back leg and was force fed a liquid food.

The vet visit was Wednesday last week and he didn't seem to get much better still barely moving (but still moving!). He might be doing a little better now (not closing his eyes much at all anymore). Although it's very hard to get him to drink. The vet gave me a little plastic syringe for water which I have successfully got in his mouth with a bit of struggle and given him a little water. I try to get him to drink by himself first by spraying down the leaves in the cage and dripping water over a leaf in front of him. I realized I might want to mist him directly, so I started doing that today.

It's also very hard to get him to eat. I'm not sure that he has eaten anything since the vet visit last wednesday. I've been trying to keep about 4 crickets in the cage so he can eat while I'm not around. When I try to cup feed him, he seems interested for a little bit (turns his head), but then loses interest. I've been dusting all the crickets with plain calcium bicarbonate no phos. or d3.

So my main questions are how to get him to drink and eat??? How long can Jackson's go without eating usually? I really care about this guy and I know you guys often have lots of great advice! So please if you have any, please share it!
Thanks!!
 
cybercham said:
Thanks for a quick reply!
The repitsun5.0 is not the spiral type of cfl it's about 4 inch long with 3 U shaped tubes. Why should I turn it off? Can they get too much UVB? Is this not a good bulb?

Edit: This is the exact bulb I bought:
http://www.thatpetplace.com/reptisun-5-uvb-compact-fluorescent-lamp-26w
Click to expand...

What you have is still a "compact fluorescent" ReptiSun 5.0. Same idea as the older spiral type bulb. They can't get "too much UV" from this type of bulb, but some species may find it is too intense for their eyes unless they can get away from it when they want. Montane species may avoid it more than a straight single tube type fluorescent of the same brand. Your setup is very bright...UV intense and montane species are found in dense cooler understory habitats. I also think your setup is a bit too warm for a jax which maybe partly why he's not eating or very active. Jax still need regular calcium because most of our feeders are calcium deficient (but phosphorus rich). Just not with the added D3 very often as they are sensitive to VITAMIN overdose.
 
Last edited:
I just got him to eat a (very small) cricket, with some calcium powder!

I've had been trying to offer him crickets from cups and my hand, but that wasn't working. So I placed a cricket on a leaf within shooting range and he got it!
Since he's never been cup fed before, I suppose he's not used to it. So I suppose I've got to place crickets within shooting range more often (if only they would stay there).
It's nice to know he's still got good tongue function (good range and accuracy).

Any tips for getting him to drink? I've heard jacksons and other Montane species like LOTS of humidity. Should I be misting for longer than 1-2mins?

EDIT: Thanks for replying Carlton! Would you recommend the straight tube type? He can get away from it if he wants, but he's pretty immobile right now. I think I can still return the bulb and get the better version, but I would have to buy a ballast for it as well, correct?
 
Yeah, the calcium deficiency is probably the issue. Since you're feeding him only crickets, getting him to eat shouldn't be too hard since just about any other feeder will probably spark his interest. Try giving him super worms, that you can gut load with collards greens and/or carrots and then dust with calcium powder.

In the meantime, order him some BB flies; Jackson's love them.
 
cybercham said:
I just got him to eat a (very small) cricket, with some calcium powder!

I've had been trying to offer him crickets from cups and my hand, but that wasn't working. So I placed a cricket on a leaf within shooting range and he got it!
Since he's never been cup fed before, I suppose he's not used to it. So I suppose I've got to place crickets within shooting range more often (if only they would stay there).
It's nice to know he's still got good tongue function (good range and accuracy).

Any tips for getting him to drink? I've heard jacksons and other mountain species like LOTS of humidity. Should I be misting for longer than 1-2mins?
Click to expand...

He may prefer water that is dripping slowly for a longer period rather than an intense spraying session for a short time. If there is a lot of foliage that holds water droplets longer, he can lick them at he leisure over a longer time. Slower types of dripping such as Raindomes or the Aquazamp do this. You could create a rain dripping area with perforated airline tubing and a small aquarium pump.
 
Thanks for all the great answers everybody!
I'm glad I finally created an account and posted to this awesome forum. It was hard finding Jackson-specific information, I was under the impression that when treating MBD, Chams generally like to be in the upper range of their normal temp range.
I suppose this is different for Montane species that like cooler climates?

I seem to have solved the eating issue today, by simply placing the crickets on leaves within range. I got him to eat a second calcium covered cricket today, after many failed attempts!
I did get him some super worms the other day, I tried offering him them from a cup/lid and my hands, but he didn't go for it. So I guess I'll try my new method of placing them on leaves close to him. They seem a little large though, could this be a problem? Do superworms have any significant nutritional benefit compared to crickets? I heard silkies are better because they are high in calcium and low in fat (too bad they're so hard to find!)

I'll go get the linear type 24"? reptisun 5.0 tomorrow! Where should it be placed?? just at the top of cage? My concern with that is I would have to modify the platform on the top of cage to make it fit. Could it be installed vertically/horizontally along the backside? I think he'd still probably be able to hide from the light if he wanted to b/c the cage is 4' tall.

I'll definitely try to get a more dispersed drip/rain system set up tomorrow too!
Thanks everybody!
 
I forgot I also wanted to ask how often I should dust with plain calcium if I'm trying to treat MBD? I know Jackson's can be sensitive to over-supplementation and should normally only have feeders dusted 2-3 times a week. Should it be everyday until his MBD symptoms get better?

I also got some Repashy Calcium Plus LoD, how often should I dust with that? It says everyday on the bottle (which has a jackson on it) but I suspect that's way too much.
 
Regarding water...make sure you don't shoot the water into his mouth but rather ease it in. The easiest way to get them to drink is to drip water right on the end of the nose. It takes patience to get the chameleon to drink each time but it's the least stressful way.

Regarding MBD...If he has MBD you first have to correct it then correct your husbandry to keep it from returning. This means that until it's corrected you would give a drop or two of liquid calcium every day in addition to proper husbandry.

For proper husbandry you need to make sure you provide appropriate temperatures (which you seem to be doing) to aid in proper digestion and thus indirectly in nutrient absorption.

You need to provide UVB so that the chameleon can produce the D3 it needs to be able to use the calcium in the diet. The most often recommended UVB light is the Repti-sun 5.0 long linear tube.

You need to feed and gutload the insects properly with a wide assortment of greens such as collards, escarole, endive, dandelion greens, kale, etc and veggies such as carrots, sweet red pepper, squash, zucchini, sweet potato, etc.

Proper supplementing is also important.
Since most insects have a poor ratio of calcium to phosphorous we recommend dusting with a phosphorous - free calcium powder at most feedings to make up for it.

We recommend dusting lightly with a phosphorous - free calcium D3 powder twice a month. Some people only do it once a month for montane species.

It's also recommended that you dust twice a month with a vitamin powder that contains a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A. PrOformed sources of vitamin A cannot build up in the system bug there is controversy over whether all or any chameleons can convert it. This leaves it up to you to decide whether the chameleon needs prEformed or not. PrEformed vitamin A does build up in the system if overdosed...so you need to be careful with it.

D3 and vitamin A are somewhat antagonistic to each other and need to be provided in balance along with calcium and phosphorous for good bone health.

Hope this helps.
 
I found if you take a sprayer put it on stream, and lightly spray him just above his mouth around the top of his nose. The water will run down and seep into his mouth. do it lightly or it will just make him mad and drinking will be the last thing on his mind. I have found if you are patient, and do this long enough they will eventually start to drink. Jacks need time for their brain to realize hey it's time to drink. It is important to let them drink, and not force them to drink. you could cause him to aspirate which could give him a upper respiratory infection. For what it's worth I have the same UVB bulb you do, and have seen no ill effects from it. There was a problem with them a long while back but unless your bulb is from a very old stock there shouldn't be anything wrong with it. It should be fine until you decide to change it. I myself am eventually going to a linear tube once I use my stores of the CFL's. But not because I'm afraid of ill effects, but because I feel you get a more spread out effect with the linear tube therefore making it the better choice. :)
 
cybercham said:
I forgot I also wanted to ask how often I should dust with plain calcium if I'm trying to treat MBD? I know Jackson's can be sensitive to over-supplementation and should normally only have feeders dusted 2-3 times a week. Should it be everyday until his MBD symptoms get better?

I also got some Repashy Calcium Plus LoD, how often should I dust with that? It says everyday on the bottle (which has a jackson on it) but I suspect that's way too much.
Click to expand...

I have always dusted with calcium at every feeding, but then again i only feed my cham 4 times per week. Yes Jackson's are sensitive to over supplementation but that just refers to multi-vitamins and Calcium WITH D3. As, i mentioned before, plain calcium is water-soluble so there is no fear of overdosing, as any excess will simple pass out in the chams waste.

So in your case i would lightly dust with plain calcium everytime he eats.
 
So it's been about 10 days since I last posted. Reptar seemed to be improving for a little bit. He was eating gut loaded crickets (bug burger, spring greens, apple, strawberry) covered in plain calcium carbonate. However he is still not drinking (as far as I can see) and I think his dehydration is making him lose energy and appetite. He didn't move much at all today. I've tried dripping water on a leaf in front of him for a while, no response. I've tried dripping water on his front horn so that it slides toward his mouth, no response. Last week I bought a exoterra monsoon in the hopes this would get him to drink, but no luck. I haven't tried force hydrating him with a syringe since the last time I posted, until today when I thought it was getting pretty critical that he drank. He didn't get that much water from that at all, because I could barely get the tip of the syringe in his mouth without forcing it way too much.

Any better advice as to what I should be doing to get him to drink??
Here's a photo of the cage set-up in case anyone is interested.
Cage
and here's a pic of Reptar himself:
Reptar

any advice on getting him hydrated is appreciated!
Thanks
 
It's great that you've now started dusting with calcium at every feeding; however, since there is a possibility that some damage occurred due to prior neglect of calcium supplementation, his immune system/body may need a big jump start in order to utilize the calcium you're now giving him…

In other words, taking him outside for as long as possible for as many days as possible!

Our tiny bulbs are no match for the healing power and nourishment that the sun's UV can provide!

If calcium deficiency is the underlying issue then the sun's UV is best way for his body to generate the d3 it needs.
 
Bush baby said:
It's great that you've now started dusting with calcium at every feeding; however, since there is a possibility that some damage occurred due to prior neglect of calcium supplementation, his immune system/body may need a big jump start in order to utilize the calcium you're now giving him…

In other words, taking him outside for as long as possible for as many days as possible!

Our tiny bulbs are no match for the healing power and nourishment that the sun's UV can provide!

If calcium deficiency is the underlying issue then the sun's UV is best way for his body to generate the d3 it needs.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the great advice! I'll definitely take him outside for more direct UV. It's only going to be around 62 deg.F tomorrow, but sunny, is this warm enough for him?
Also is this a good time to try to get him to drink? Should I mist him/drip water on a leaf in front of him?
Good thing the silk worms are finally on their way, I hope they'll arouse his appetite because the super worms didn't really..
Thanks again for responding with great advice and quickly!
 
When the weather too cool to leave them outside all day, i usually take mine outside for only an hour or two, around mid day when it's the warmest, and when he can get some direct sunlight.
 
Have you tried making a dripper ? You can poke a small hole in a plastic bottle so it has a slow drip. Another trick is to put him on a plant in the shower pointing the water on the back wall so he gets the spray- the water shouldn't go directly on him and shouldn't be too hot.
I have a flapneck that I have never seen drink except the first day I got her- she's drinking but she will not drink with me watching-
 
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