Sick chameleon, please help, can’t get into vet until tomorrow now

[SunshineP]

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - 8-12 month old veiled chameleon, male, purchased Dec 31, 2023
• Handling - Occasionally, he’s quite friendly but we don’t like to bother him very much.
• Feeding - super worms; he hasn’t been eating crickets for some time now.
• Supplements - flukers repti calcium with VitD3 straw/banana flavor. This was daily until 2 weeks ago when we read it should be monthly.
• Watering - it is dry right now so we have the mister going for one minute hourly. Fogger at night and 2 fountains at the bottom of the enclosure.
• Fecal Description - I haven’t been able to find any lately!
• History - we purchased our guy at pet land and were completely ill advised. We originally had a glass enclosure with a screen top and the thing would collect water on the bottom like crazy. We weren’t told about supplements they’d need and were sent home only with crickets! Which he didn’t really eat. Super worms and meal worms were added but the super worms have been his favorite so became the go to for him.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - he has been in a 2x4 screen cage for about a month now.
• Lighting - we are using 100W heat lamp and a 22” zoomed UVB 5?
• Temperature - What temp in the basking spot can get as high as 97 degrees and sits around 77 degrees about 6 inches below that basking spot. This heat lamp seems to fluctuate on how much heat it kicks out and we’ve replaced it a couple of times now (do these wear out quickly?)
• Humidity - 29-79% depending on when the misters last went off. In the higher range at night with the fogger going.
• Plants - live plants, 2 pothos, 1 Boston fern and I can’t remember the name of the tall one but I did check if it was allowed before buying.
• Placement - currently located on the main floor at a room entryway beside the tv stand. Mean to move it back downstairs but we have to deconstruct it first
• Location - We are located in southern Alberta Canada

Current Problem - The current problem you are concerned about.

He stopped eating for a few days, which a search said wasn’t abnormal given he is likely an adult or on his way. Color has been relaxed, more so than since we bought him over the past month.

Woke up to him sleeping near the bottom of the tank hanging by his tail and feet. I will post a pic. Color was good but we thought he might be dead! I told my daughter not to bother him in case he was asleep and not dead. Ran to doctors appt came home and he was in some standing water in the tank.

Took him out and turned the lights on early for the day, placed him on his basking branch. After my meeting I checked in on him and he was on the floor of the tank; not moving. Placed a hammock in the tank as now we’re extra worried, he made his way off of it. Please note he is very weak and unable to stand or walk. Was wiggling around. Ended up placing him in a shoe box under the heat by the UVB and we’ve been kind of changing it up occasionally so he doesn’t get too hot.

Had gotten a vet appointment for today but they canceled. Now we have to wait yet another day for him to he seen and we are sure he’s on deaths doorstep but don’t understand what happened so quickly

The video of him eating was March 3rd, the tank pics have been over the past two weeks.

Him hanging was yesterday am and the shoe box is right now. He is barely moving

 

[Gloriawood]

Hi and welcome! I can do a husbandry review for you, but it will be 2-3 hours before I can get to it. If someone can get to it before then, great. If not I’ll do it when I can. I do see a few things that need some tweaking. For how keep him in the smaller box since he is falling. The heat is a bit high, 85 should be the max.

 

[SunshineP]

Hi and welcome! I can do a husbandry review for you, but it will be 2-3 hours before I can get to it. If someone can get to it before then, great. If not I’ll do it when I can. I do see a few things that need some tweaking. For how keep him in the smaller box since he is falling. The heat is a bit high, 85 should be the max.

Thank you!

 

[Beman]

Hey there I can go ahead and do your husbandry review. Give me a few to go through everything.

 

[SunshineP]

I appreciate any help I can get, we’re so worried and frustrated that we can’t get in anywhere quickly Like there are emergency services for other pets, wish there were for reptiles!

 

[Beman]

@SunshineP First off welcome to Chameleon Forums. I am glad you found us. This is going to be a ton of info so please just take it piece by piece. Let me know what questions you have. You will see my feedback in red bold.

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - 8-12 month old veiled chameleon, male, purchased Dec 31, 2023.
• Handling - Occasionally, he’s quite friendly but we don’t like to bother him very much.
• Feeding - super worms; he hasn’t been eating crickets for some time now. So he may not be eating the crickets due to having a superworm addiction. This is very common with chams. They prefer one feeder over the other and will stop eating the others. To fix this first he has to be healthy and husbandry has to be on point. You have to remove the superworms as an option and only feed other insects. This may result in a feeding strike on his part. In a healthy cham they can safely go 2 weeks without eating so you have to hold out and not break down and offer the superworms at all during this period. They eventually give in and go for the other insects.
• Supplements - flukers repti calcium with VitD3 straw/banana flavor. This was daily until 2 weeks ago when we read it should be monthly. So for supplements the one you are using is actually incorrect for a chameleon. You want a plain unflavored phosphorus free No D3 calcium for all feedings then you have to have a multivitamin that has D3 and A in it to use 2 times a month say the 1st and the 15th. Repashy calcium plus LoD version is what I recommend for this. And then Repashy supercal NoD is what I recommend for the plain calcium without D3. Now since he was receiving this D3 supplement daily for months he is high risk of having D3 toxicity. Unfortunately D3 is a fat soluble supplement that can take months to clear from their tissues. So this is a wait it out thing in which you do not supplement with D3 for at least 6-8 weeks while his levels reduce and clear.
• Watering - it is dry right now so we have the mister going for one minute hourly. Fogger at night and 2 fountains at the bottom of the enclosure. Ok the fountains both need to go these are bacteria breeding grounds. As far as the mister. It would be better if you could run a long misting in the morning and then late afternoon rather than running these short misting sessions hourly. They need their cages to dry out during the day. For the fogger these can only be used if your temps are below 67 at night. Otherwise the cham is higher risk for developing a respirtory infection.
• Fecal Description - I haven’t been able to find any lately!
• History - we purchased our guy at pet land and were completely ill advised. We originally had a glass enclosure with a screen top and the thing would collect water on the bottom like crazy. We weren’t told about supplements they’d need and were sent home only with crickets! Which he didn’t really eat. Super worms and meal worms were added but the super worms have been his favorite so became the go to for him.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - he has been in a 2x4 screen cage for about a month now.
• Lighting - we are using 100W heat lamp and a 22” zoomed UVB 5? Please confirm if you are using a T5HO fixture or a T8?
• Temperature - What temp in the basking spot can get as high as 97 degrees and sits around 77 degrees about 6 inches below that basking spot. This heat lamp seems to fluctuate on how much heat it kicks out and we’ve replaced it a couple of times now (do these wear out quickly?) Ok so this is far too high of temps. Male veileds should only be exposed to basking temps of 80-85. We check temps by adding a temp gauge with a probe hooked in at the basking branch below the heat. IF this says the temp at the branch is 80 then it is a few degrees higher as he rises closer to it off the branch. we commonly use a 60-75 regular white incandesent bulb for basking bulb. Red bulbs damage their eyes so these are not recommended. There should be 12 hours lights on and then 12 hours no lights at all.
• Humidity - 29-79% depending on when the misters last went off. In the higher range at night with the fogger going. How are you determining your humidity levels? Analog or digital gauge? Veileds can handle lower humidity daytime. I would not recommend anything lower than 30% daytime. 40% daytime is better. You can help this by adding a solid side to the back and two sides of the cage. This contains the humidity. You can use corrugated plastic panels or duct window film on the outside of the cage frame.
• Plants - live plants, 2 pothos, 1 Boston fern and I can’t remember the name of the tall one but I did check if it was allowed before buying.
• Placement - currently located on the main floor at a room entryway beside the tv stand. Mean to move it back downstairs but we have to deconstruct it first
• Location - We are located in southern Alberta Canada

Current Problem - The current problem you are concerned about.

He stopped eating for a few days, which a search said wasn’t abnormal given he is likely an adult or on his way. Color has been relaxed, more so than since we bought him over the past month.

Woke up to him sleeping near the bottom of the tank hanging by his tail and feet. I will post a pic. Color was good but we thought he might be dead! I told my daughter not to bother him in case he was asleep and not dead. Ran to doctors appt came home and he was in some standing water in the tank.

Took him out and turned the lights on early for the day, placed him on his basking branch. After my meeting I checked in on him and he was on the floor of the tank; not moving. Placed a hammock in the tank as now we’re extra worried, he made his way off of it. Please note he is very weak and unable to stand or walk. Was wiggling around. Ended up placing him in a shoe box under the heat by the UVB and we’ve been kind of changing it up occasionally so he doesn’t get too hot.

Had gotten a vet appointment for today but they canceled. Now we have to wait yet another day for him to he seen and we are sure he’s on deaths doorstep but don’t understand what happened so quickly

The video of him eating was March 3rd, the tank pics have been over the past two weeks.

Him hanging was yesterday am and the shoe box is right now. He is barely moving


Ok there is a lot going on here for him. He is showing visable signs of Metabolic Bone Disease. This could be due to the fact he was getting far too much D3. D3 like this will actually do the reverse and pull calcium from their bones. Then you have the extreme temps. This can dehydrate them and cause them to go into shut down.

Pull the tub out of the bottom of the cage along with all waterfalls. This is just a massive stagnant breeding ground for bacteria.

Take the heat fixture off the box. UVB light only. I would put him in a plastic tote though for this. He will either start to rebound or further decline depending on the specifics of what is going on.

Additionally it could be illness as in something like a bacterial infection or respiratory infection. I say this due to the extremely high temps and hourly mistings you have been doing. He would be consistently breathing in hot wet air. Then the tub in the bottom holding all that excess water. Then he passes urate and fecal into this. So this in turn can create bacteria and stagnant air in his cage.

 

[MissSkittles]

I’m just wanting to pop in and welcome you to the forum. I’m sorry that your guy isn’t doing so well. You’ve got @Beman helping and she’s just the best. Do try to keep your guy hydrated. You could put a small plant to mist in the hospital bin with him and/or try dripping a few drops of water on the tip of his nose.

 

[SunshineP]

@SunshineP First off welcome to Chameleon Forums. I am glad you found us. This is going to be a ton of info so please just take it piece by piece. Let me know what questions you have. You will see my feedback in red bold.

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - 8-12 month old veiled chameleon, male, purchased Dec 31, 2023.
• Handling - Occasionally, he’s quite friendly but we don’t like to bother him very much.
• Feeding - super worms; he hasn’t been eating crickets for some time now. So he may not be eating the crickets due to having a superworm addiction. This is very common with chams. They prefer one feeder over the other and will stop eating the others. To fix this first he has to be healthy and husbandry has to be on point. You have to remove the superworms as an option and only feed other insects. This may result in a feeding strike on his part. In a healthy cham they can safely go 2 weeks without eating so you have to hold out and not break down and offer the superworms at all during this period. They eventually give in and go for the other insects.
• Supplements - flukers repti calcium with VitD3 straw/banana flavor. This was daily until 2 weeks ago when we read it should be monthly. So for supplements the one you are using is actually incorrect for a chameleon. You want a plain unflavored phosphorus free No D3 calcium for all feedings then you have to have a multivitamin that has D3 and A in it to use 2 times a month say the 1st and the 15th. Repashy calcium plus LoD version is what I recommend for this. And then Repashy supercal NoD is what I recommend for the plain calcium without D3. Now since he was receiving this D3 supplement daily for months he is high risk of having D3 toxicity. Unfortunately D3 is a fat soluble supplement that can take months to clear from their tissues. So this is a wait it out thing in which you do not supplement with D3 for at least 6-8 weeks while his levels reduce and clear.
• Watering - it is dry right now so we have the mister going for one minute hourly. Fogger at night and 2 fountains at the bottom of the enclosure. Ok the fountains both need to go these are bacteria breeding grounds. As far as the mister. It would be better if you could run a long misting in the morning and then late afternoon rather than running these short misting sessions hourly. They need their cages to dry out during the day. For the fogger these can only be used if your temps are below 67 at night. Otherwise the cham is higher risk for developing a respirtory infection.
• Fecal Description - I haven’t been able to find any lately!
• History - we purchased our guy at pet land and were completely ill advised. We originally had a glass enclosure with a screen top and the thing would collect water on the bottom like crazy. We weren’t told about supplements they’d need and were sent home only with crickets! Which he didn’t really eat. Super worms and meal worms were added but the super worms have been his favorite so became the go to for him.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - he has been in a 2x4 screen cage for about a month now.
• Lighting - we are using 100W heat lamp and a 22” zoomed UVB 5? Please confirm if you are using a T5HO fixture or a T8?
• Temperature - What temp in the basking spot can get as high as 97 degrees and sits around 77 degrees about 6 inches below that basking spot. This heat lamp seems to fluctuate on how much heat it kicks out and we’ve replaced it a couple of times now (do these wear out quickly?) Ok so this is far too high of temps. Male veileds should only be exposed to basking temps of 80-85. We check temps by adding a temp gauge with a probe hooked in at the basking branch below the heat. IF this says the temp at the branch is 80 then it is a few degrees higher as he rises closer to it off the branch. we commonly use a 60-75 regular white incandesent bulb for basking bulb. Red bulbs damage their eyes so these are not recommended. There should be 12 hours lights on and then 12 hours no lights at all.
• Humidity - 29-79% depending on when the misters last went off. In the higher range at night with the fogger going. How are you determining your humidity levels? Analog or digital gauge? Veileds can handle lower humidity daytime. I would not recommend anything lower than 30% daytime. 40% daytime is better. You can help this by adding a solid side to the back and two sides of the cage. This contains the humidity. You can use corrugated plastic panels or duct window film on the outside of the cage frame.
• Plants - live plants, 2 pothos, 1 Boston fern and I can’t remember the name of the tall one but I did check if it was allowed before buying.
• Placement - currently located on the main floor at a room entryway beside the tv stand. Mean to move it back downstairs but we have to deconstruct it first
• Location - We are located in southern Alberta Canada

Current Problem - The current problem you are concerned about.

He stopped eating for a few days, which a search said wasn’t abnormal given he is likely an adult or on his way. Color has been relaxed, more so than since we bought him over the past month.

Woke up to him sleeping near the bottom of the tank hanging by his tail and feet. I will post a pic. Color was good but we thought he might be dead! I told my daughter not to bother him in case he was asleep and not dead. Ran to doctors appt came home and he was in some standing water in the tank.

Took him out and turned the lights on early for the day, placed him on his basking branch. After my meeting I checked in on him and he was on the floor of the tank; not moving. Placed a hammock in the tank as now we’re extra worried, he made his way off of it. Please note he is very weak and unable to stand or walk. Was wiggling around. Ended up placing him in a shoe box under the heat by the UVB and we’ve been kind of changing it up occasionally so he doesn’t get too hot.

Had gotten a vet appointment for today but they canceled. Now we have to wait yet another day for him to he seen and we are sure he’s on deaths doorstep but don’t understand what happened so quickly

The video of him eating was March 3rd, the tank pics have been over the past two weeks.

Him hanging was yesterday am and the shoe box is right now. He is barely moving


Ok there is a lot going on here for him. He is showing visable signs of Metabolic Bone Disease. This could be due to the fact he was getting far too much D3. D3 like this will actually do the reverse and pull calcium from their bones. Then you have the extreme temps. This can dehydrate them and cause them to go into shut down.

Pull the tub out of the bottom of the cage along with all waterfalls. This is just a massive stagnant breeding ground for bacteria.

Take the heat fixture off the box. UVB light only. I would put him in a plastic tote though for this. He will either start to rebound or further decline depending on the specifics of what is going on.

Additionally it could be illness as in something like a bacterial infection or respiratory infection. I say this due to the extremely high temps and hourly mistings you have been doing. He would be consistently breathing in hot wet air. Then the tub in the bottom holding all that excess water. Then he passes urate and fecal into this. So this in turn can create bacteria and stagnant air in his cage.

The UVB light says F24T5

Thank you so much for the feedback on the cage and the fountains, etc!

Should we be doing anything for him in regards to nourishment? Is there anything the vet will be able to do in regards to the metabolic bone disease?

You guys are amazing that you can spot these things! Ps, I’m really starting to hate pet stores

 

[Beman]

The UVB light says F24T5

Thank you so much for the feedback on the cage and the fountains, etc!

Should we be doing anything for him in regards to nourishment? Is there anything the vet will be able to do in regards to the metabolic bone disease?

You guys are amazing that you can spot these things! Ps, I’m really starting to hate pet stores

Ok so then the light is a T5HO fixture. if it is a 5.0 bulb then on a cage it should sit directly on the screen top then you want 8-9 inches to the branch. Now on a hospital bin set up you want this fixture raised approximately 11 inches above him to put him in the same UVB level. This is farther away because there is no screen in between to reduce the UVB> remember 12 hours only of lighting on. He will be good at night as long as your house temps are not lower than 55-60 at night. Per daytime temps in a bin. He is fine as long as your ambient house temps is at least 70.

Him not eating for 2 weeks will not kill him. However him not drinking can. You can put a plant in the plastic tub and spray that down. If he is simply laying on his side then trying to force liquids is going to be really hard because you can not put it in the front of the mouth due to that being where their airway is. you can aspirate them very easily. See this link http://www.muchadoaboutchameleons.com/2014/05/how-to-give-different-medicines.html

MBD can be corrected internally. The vet will give a special liquid calcium without D3. But the limbs being not straight and external signs of it will always be there.

Honestly he will either bounce back or he will decline further. Since you were never given the right info on how to keep him and so many important aspects were off I can not give you a real answer pin pointing one thing.

 

[Beman]

Additionally you want to make sure your vet has at the very least reptile experience. Many vets do not know proper husbandry much less specifics on chameleons. So finding a vet that knows how to diagnose and treat them can be very hard.

 

[Beman]

See my additional post above as well. Not sure if you did. You will only get notifications on the very last post of your thread.

 

[kinyonga]

Welcome to the forum and the world of chameleons! Sorry you’re having problems with your chameleon.

You said…”Should we be doing anything for him in regards to nourishment?” and this…”Is there anything the vet will be able to do in regards to the metabolic bone disease?”…it would be good if you can get him to eat something besides super worms and mealworms. Silkworms, roaches, grasshoppers and crickets would all be good choices. A tomato worm would help with hydration. Whatever you feed him should be well fed…a nutritious diet…and gutloaded before feeding to him…then dusted in a phosphorus free calcium powder lightly at all feedings. He should also be getting a vitamin powder with a prEformed source of vitamin A at one feeding every 2weeks, lightly dusted on the insects.(normally, it should have D3 in it too…but since you’ve been using the D3 too often for a while it’s likely better to not have the D3 in for now but provide a proper UVB bulb still.)
In addition to this, the vet should check his bones and tell you how much liquid calcium to give him until the MBD is corrected, if necessary.

Once his bones are strong, then the liquid calcium would be dropped and the powdered calcium continued along with a vitamin powder that contains D3 and prEformed vitamin A twice a month lightly.

Both prEformed vitamin A and D3 from supplements are fat soluble and can be overdosed…so care must be taken with them.

If he’s not eating at all, there’s a bug juice that you can use for a short period of time…
https://www.adcham.com/html/husbandry/bug-juice.html

BTW…MBD affects more than just the bone strength…it affects the muscles and how fast the food moves through the system, and other things in the chameleon as well.

I hope this helps!

 

[SunshineP]

I wanted to thank you all for your help, it was nice to have a starting point for the vet! There were no breaks and he gave him a calcium shot Thursday.

I’ve been given a calcium regime for him to follow for the next month and today he started moving around the cage a bit again, climbed right out of his sick bed!

We are so relieved, he was also starting to open his mouth again and contemplating some worms!
What a long way he’s come so quickly.

I just wanted to really thank you all

 

[Beppo]

I wanted to thank you all for your help, it was nice to have a starting point for the vet! There were no breaks and he gave him a calcium shot Thursday.

I’ve been given a calcium regime for him to follow for the next month and today he started moving around the cage a bit again, climbed right out of his sick bed!

We are so relieved, he was also starting to open his mouth again and contemplating some worms!
What a long way he’s come so quickly.

I just wanted to really thank you all

View attachment 353430

I hope your beautiful boy continues to do well

 

[MissSkittles]

Wonderful news! So glad that you found your way here and that your guy is doing better.

 

[elizaann2]

Happy news! I'm glad he is doing better! I hope you stick around, I'd love to see how your guy continues to do

 

[SunshineP]

Oh my gosh guys, he has been opening his mouth all day and I haven’t been able to figure out why. Well my daughter just got home and asked me why he has no tongue anymore. It looks like he’s swallowed it ?!? This poor guy! Off to the vet again tomorrow, unless anyone here knows some kind of trick or how this can even happen *face slap*

 

[Beppo]

Oh my gosh guys, he has been opening his mouth all day and I haven’t been able to figure out why. Well my daughter just got home and asked me why he has no tongue anymore. It looks like he’s swallowed it ?!? This poor guy! Off to the vet again tomorrow, unless anyone here knows some kind of trick or how this can even happen *face slap*

I am not sure there is anything you can do except take him to the vet, but I will let others chime in. I’m so sorry this is happening, it’s not unheard of though, I don’t know if I have heard of them swallowing their tongues but I’ve definitely heard of chameleons tongues becoming detached and I’ve heard of the chameleon living many more years … hopefully some others with more experience will chime in soon, hang in there and again I’m so sorry

 

[SunshineP]

I am not sure there is anything you can do except take him to the vet, but I will let others chime in. I’m so sorry this is happening, it’s not unheard of though, I don’t know if I have heard of them swallowing their tongues but I’ve definitely heard of chameleons tongues becoming detached and I’ve heard of the chameleon living many more years … hopefully some others with more experience will chime in soon, hang in there and again I’m so sorry

Thank you, I’m hoping that the kids are just crazy and not seeing it

 

[MissSkittles]

Oh my gosh guys, he has been opening his mouth all day and I haven’t been able to figure out why. Well my daughter just got home and asked me why he has no tongue anymore. It looks like he’s swallowed it ?!? This poor guy! Off to the vet again tomorrow, unless anyone here knows some kind of trick or how this can even happen *face slap*

I believe this can happen but @kinyonga is the one who knows more about it.