Sick Cham

[Leslie11]

Hi all. My cham, "Siren's Song", is on death's door. We just got back from the vet's (reptile) and he thinks she has a liver problem according to the color of her mouth, inside. She is a 19 mo. Nosy Be. The Dr. has me making a mixture of baby food meat, carrots, and Greek yogurt (live culture) to be given 2x a day. I also need to give her water and/or Pedialyte. (I choose Pedia) She also gets Baytril and Flagyl once a day. She was Black when I took her in, but pinked up after an injection of fluids, but still can't move much. I do not think she will make it, but I am willing to try. I love her. Please send some prayers/well wishes her way. Thanks.

 

[jannb]

Keeping you and your girl in my thoughts and I hope she will be able to pull through. Did your vet do any bloodwork? Here's an excellent chameleon vet in MD for a second opinion.

Stahl Exotic Animal Veterinary Services
4105 Rust Rd.
Fairfax VA.22030
703 281 3750

 

[Olimpia]

Is your chameleon's mouth yellow? I'd find myself another vet, as this one doesn't seem to know chameleons very well. Yellow is a normal mouth color for panthers, and isn't by itself indicative of anything. Also, the yogurt seems like a weird suggestion for a liver issue, especially since reptiles don't digest lactose well. I don't know, it all seems like iffy advice.

I'm sorry your girlie is having issues, but I would hate to not suggest looking for a second opinion on the off chance it's something else that COULD be treated.

 

[ChameleonFan1989]

Think your vet is talking BS and doesn't know what he's doing.... sorry but has Olimpia said, they don't digest lactose well or at all as there systems weren't designed for it and what are you referring to as in meat? Crushed up bugs?

And a yellow mouth is normal in panthers.

Another vet is in order

 

[Leslie11]

Update..Sick Cham

Dr. Ryan has credentials up the wahzoo. Link: www.fstvet.com . Baby food meat. I was giving her smushed up bugs, but did not do anything. Her mouth was green, not yellow like it usually is. I don't know about the yogurt, but he said it needed to be "live culture." She is alive, so far, but I am not hopeful. She is laying in a sling in her cage to keep her from falling. I need to get her closer to her basking light, though. Here's a pic of my poor, pathetic Siren.

 

[Carlton]

Hi all. My cham, "Siren's Song", is on death's door. We just got back from the vet's (reptile) and he thinks she has a liver problem according to the color of her mouth, inside. She is a 19 mo. Nosy Be. The Dr. has me making a mixture of baby food meat, carrots, and Greek yogurt (live culture) to be given 2x a day. I also need to give her water and/or Pedialyte. (I choose Pedia) She also gets Baytril and Flagyl once a day. She was Black when I took her in, but pinked up after an injection of fluids, but still can't move much. I do not think she will make it, but I am willing to try. I love her. Please send some prayers/well wishes her way. Thanks.

Maybe we could help if we knew more about how she was kept up until she got sick...her lighting, temps, humidity level, her diet and dusting/supplementation schedule and specific products you used. Something caused this and most likely she's been ailing for a while to get to this state.

She's getting a lot of medication (why Flagyl every day?) on top of substances alien to her metabolism. Baytril is hard on her kidneys but without a specific diagnosis of an infection maybe it shouldn't be used on top of the Flagyl.

I can't imagine giving a cham yogurt. What's his reason? The Flagyl is supposedly getting rid of parasites, but then at the same time he's trying to reestablish healthy gut flora with yogurt??? Seems odd to me. I also agree about chams not having the ability to digest the dairy. It may be complicating everything and putting more stress on her, not to mention all the handling to give all those medications twice a day.

 

[Olimpia]

I'm sure your vet is probably phenomenal with typical domestic animals, probably with common birds and some reptiles, but with what we're hearing right now I don't think that chameleons are something he's extremely experienced with. You wouldn't be alone, it's tough for all of us to find vets that KNOW chameleons, and even those that do aren't always experts on their very specific needs. It's just iffy treatment, especially since you didn't mention any bloodwork or anything that would definitively prove her organs are failing. What tests/physical exams did he do?

I'd post the info Carlton is asking for, at the very least it may help you figure out what (if anything) might have happened.

 

[Leslie11]

Well, I fed her the mixture of food and some pedialyte. She pinked up, sat up in a comfortable position and seems to be sleeping well. All tucked in. I'm not sure I will share much, on here, anymore. I felt totally jumped on about my vet, his advisement, etc. I did not have the blood work and lab work done because of her condition, and the fact I did not have another $200.+ on top of the $82 I was spending already. Mostly the condition, as she is/was on death's door. If it is her liver, there probably is not much they could do for her anyway. I would have considered it if she was in better condition. So far, so good. Her husbandry is fine. Thanks!

 

[kinyonga]

Is this the female that laid eggs in August? Did they turn out to be infertile?

What supplements do you use and how often for each? What do you feed/gutload the insects with? What are the basking temperatures? Does the UVB light pass through glass or plastic?

For her to be laying like that rather than standing and for her eyes to be sunken like that she is very sick.
We are not trying to jump on you but to help your chameleon.

 

[Bush baby]

Well, I fed her the mixture of food and some pedialyte. She pinked up, sat up in a comfortable position and seems to be sleeping well. All tucked in. I'm not sure I will share much, on here, anymore. I felt totally jumped on about my vet, his advisement, etc. I did not have the blood work and lab work done because of her condition, and the fact I did not have another $200.+ on top of the $82 I was spending already. Mostly the condition, as she is/was on death's door. If it is her liver, there probably is not much they could do for her anyway. I would have considered it if she was in better condition. So far, so good. Her husbandry is fine. Thanks!

You shouldn't feel 'jumped on'. People are giving you sound advice. Sorry if it's not what you want to hear. Not to mention, there is a ticking time bomb type scenario, when it comes to sick chams as they deteriorate really fast, so people are really just anxious to try to help.

Sorry about your cham.

 

[Leslie11]

sick cham report

I understand you are truly concerned and have a vast amount of experience collectively, but just because a vet does something you decide is out of the ordinary does not make him full of crap! New stuff comes along everyday. Yes, I know the Batril is hard on the kidneys, but we are at the end of the line, here. The feeders are gutloaded with fresh veggies (kale, cuc, carrots, spinach, etc.) and fruit ( pears, oranges, peaches, grapes, etc) every other day. They also have water available around the clock. I dust all my feeders with Calcium without D3 every day (repti calcium) They get Calcium with D3 and Multi vitamins 2x a month. All my chams have the mainstay of Dubias, with sides of Phoenix worms, crickets, wax worms and meal worms on occasion. They turn their noses up at superworms and butterworms. Superworms constipate my oldest male, but he likes strawberries. He gets baby food pears when needed. Basking temps are 86. I use tube UVBs 5. (Zilla). I just ordered new bulbs this week as mine expire the end of OCT (6 mos.). When weather permits, I take each cham out in the sun, alternately. I only have 1 outdoor cage. They are in 36x18x18" reptibreeze cages (screened). I only handle my 6 mo. old male, as he is very friendly. I have both live and fake plants with lots to climb on throughout the cage. I mist 2-3 times a day with humidity 50-60. 70 at night because all lights are off, so not drying things out.

 

[kinyonga]

Is it the same female that laid eggs in August? Where they infertile? How did she behave after laying them if it was her? Did she eat and drink soon after laying? Actually normally?

 

[Leslie11]

Btw

Yes, the eggs in Aug. were infertile. And there are 2 reptile vets in this office. I didn't mean to get worked up, but it has been a long worrisome day.

 

[kinyonga]

How did she behave after the laying? Eat? Drink? Act normally?

 

[kinyonga]

What vitamin powder do you use? What vitamin A is in it? D3?

 

[Leslie11]

eggs and update2..pic

She rested 2-3 weeks after she laid her eggs and drank ALOT of water. She did not eat very much, but she is 1 and 1/2 yrs. old.

She takes the Exo Terra Multi Vit., which has 4002mgb beta carotene and Vit. A 90,000mcg. I also gutload my Dubias with lots of carrots. Below is a picture of her this morning after food and pedia. She kept wanting to climb, which I finally let her. She is basking near her light on the side of her cage. I think a good nights sleep helped her, though I wrestled with the idea of turning off the lights or leaving the light on to keep her warm. I ended up with lights out as this room is 73 degrees. We are definitely not out of the woods. The Dr. said IF she recovered it would take 6 wks and lots of daily care. I am home, so that is no problem.
This site keeps knocking me off after I log in. Ugh

 

[Lazy Boy]

Wow her color looks way better today and standing up. I'm not going to lie from the last pic I didn't think she would make it thru the night. Good for you maybe your out of the box vet is really onto something. I wish you and your cham nothing but the best.

 

[Carlton]

She rested 2-3 weeks after she laid her eggs and drank ALOT of water. She did not eat very much, but she is 1 and 1/2 yrs. old.

She takes the Exo Terra Multi Vit., which has 4002mgb beta carotene and Vit. A 90,000mcg. I also gutload my Dubias with lots of carrots. Below is a picture of her this morning after food and pedia. She kept wanting to climb, which I finally let her. She is basking near her light on the side of her cage. I think a good nights sleep helped her, though I wrestled with the idea of turning off the lights or leaving the light on to keep her warm. I ended up with lights out as this room is 73 degrees. We are definitely not out of the woods. The Dr. said IF she recovered it would take 6 wks and lots of daily care. I am home, so that is no problem.
This site keeps knocking me off after I log in. Ugh

If you are worried about keeping her warm at night use something that doesn't emit light, or she won't be able to sleep. You could use a heating pad set on low under her enclosure.

 

[inlinefourpower]

Wow, I'm blown away by the picture from today. The picture from the day before she looked like she was already dead! I am shocked and happy to see that she's standing and a normal color in the latest picture!

I'd also like to say I know how you feel in terms of the attacked feeling. Whenever I post with a health problem for my chameleon on here I always feel like a bad chameleon owner and that the others are judging me and my chameleon care. Especially compounded with concern you already have for your chameleon it can be very stressful! But I think the facts are different. In my case and yours everyone on this site is trying to help.

So, I'm not trying to criticize your feeling criticized... But I'm trying to tell you that everyone on here cares about your chameleon, that's all that is happening. And from what I've read in this thread you're trying to do the best for your chameleon and everyone else is trying to help. I hope Siren's recovery continues!

 

[Carlton]

I understand you are truly concerned and have a vast amount of experience collectively, but just because a vet does something you decide is out of the ordinary does not make him full of crap! New stuff comes along everyday. Yes, I know the Batril is hard on the kidneys, but we are at the end of the line, here. The feeders are gutloaded with fresh veggies (kale, cuc, carrots, spinach, etc.) and fruit ( pears, oranges, peaches, grapes, etc) every other day. They also have water available around the clock. I dust all my feeders with Calcium without D3 every day (repti calcium) They get Calcium with D3 and Multi vitamins 2x a month. All my chams have the mainstay of Dubias, with sides of Phoenix worms, crickets, wax worms and meal worms on occasion. They turn their noses up at superworms and butterworms. Superworms constipate my oldest male, but he likes strawberries. He gets baby food pears when needed. Basking temps are 86. I use tube UVBs 5. (Zilla). I just ordered new bulbs this week as mine expire the end of OCT (6 mos.). When weather permits, I take each cham out in the sun, alternately. I only have 1 outdoor cage. They are in 36x18x18" reptibreeze cages (screened). I only handle my 6 mo. old male, as he is very friendly. I have both live and fake plants with lots to climb on throughout the cage. I mist 2-3 times a day with humidity 50-60. 70 at night because all lights are off, so not drying things out.

Another thing to remember about this forum...we hear many sad stories about vets trying to help a sick cham, and so often the vet really has no idea how to diagnose any herp illnesses or how to treat them. Many times the treatment options the forum knows about (through long sad collective experience) are more up to date and effective than what a vet may have learned in school. We are not trying to knock YOU or your vet, just ask clarifying questions that might pinpoint the problem quickly and more accurately.

For example, Baytril is IMHO overprescribed. It's effective and broad spectrum, but sort of shot gunned in an attempt to get lucky and solve an undiagnosed infection. Some individual chams react quite badly to Baytril. We don't necessarily know why (I suspect if you have a stressed out imported cham with some kidney or organ damage it isn't tolerated), but some just crash after a couple of doses, won't eat, shut down, sit dark and immobile. Another individual of the same species may not do this at all. I know, having seen it myself in wc melleri.