should phosphorus be occasional?
- Thread starter LeoM
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sandrachameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
Yes, thats okay
They get lots of phos from their food, that's why we dont add more. We are aiming to change the ratio between phos and calcium in most prey items by dusting with phos free calcium. You'll notice that product has plenty of calcium
They get lots of phos from their food, that's why we dont add more. We are aiming to change the ratio between phos and calcium in most prey items by dusting with phos free calcium. You'll notice that product has plenty of calcium
Olimpia
Biologist & Ecologist
Here's a clip from my blog on vitamins and minerals that is relevant. It expands on what Sandra said:
Phosphorous: After calcium, phosphorous is the second most abundant mineral in the body. It is also highly abundant in bones, although very much present in cells. It is important in regulating the use of other vitamins and minerals in the body. The balance of calcium and phosphorous in the body is a delicate one, necessary for the proper density and strength of bones, for example. Too little of it is negative, and can lead to problems like fatigue and weak bones. However, it is more dangerous (and much more likely) for the body to have too much phosphorous than too little of it (which almost sounds counter intuitive, given that too little causes brittle bones. More on this in a second), and the intake of calcium must mirror the intake of phosphorous to maintain the two at a balanced level. Although the two minerals work together, they are also antagonistic, which means that too much phosphorous will actually interfere with calcium absorption.
Because the diets of captive chameleons contains higher levels of phosphorous relative to calcium (due to the composition of most commonly given food insects such as crickets, who contain a Phos:Cal ratio of 3:1, which means that they have about three times more phosphorous than calcium), this can lead to unbalanced levels of the two minerals, and the high levels of phosphorous actually interfere with calcium absorption. So even if you are giving a lot of calcium the body can’t utilize it due to excessive phosphorous. This must be corrected with calcium supplementation. This is why phosphorous-free calcium supplements are recommended for dusting insects. Too much phosphorous in the body can lead to kidney and heart failure, and actually reduce bone density as well. So since phosphorous is more abundant in insectivore diets in captivity, it is more important to worry about not having too much over having too little of it present.
Phosphorous: After calcium, phosphorous is the second most abundant mineral in the body. It is also highly abundant in bones, although very much present in cells. It is important in regulating the use of other vitamins and minerals in the body. The balance of calcium and phosphorous in the body is a delicate one, necessary for the proper density and strength of bones, for example. Too little of it is negative, and can lead to problems like fatigue and weak bones. However, it is more dangerous (and much more likely) for the body to have too much phosphorous than too little of it (which almost sounds counter intuitive, given that too little causes brittle bones. More on this in a second), and the intake of calcium must mirror the intake of phosphorous to maintain the two at a balanced level. Although the two minerals work together, they are also antagonistic, which means that too much phosphorous will actually interfere with calcium absorption.
Because the diets of captive chameleons contains higher levels of phosphorous relative to calcium (due to the composition of most commonly given food insects such as crickets, who contain a Phos:Cal ratio of 3:1, which means that they have about three times more phosphorous than calcium), this can lead to unbalanced levels of the two minerals, and the high levels of phosphorous actually interfere with calcium absorption. So even if you are giving a lot of calcium the body can’t utilize it due to excessive phosphorous. This must be corrected with calcium supplementation. This is why phosphorous-free calcium supplements are recommended for dusting insects. Too much phosphorous in the body can lead to kidney and heart failure, and actually reduce bone density as well. So since phosphorous is more abundant in insectivore diets in captivity, it is more important to worry about not having too much over having too little of it present.
fluxlizard
Avid Member
The same rules apply for all reptiles when it comes to phosphorous- not chameleons only.
I suggest you take your concern to Rapeshy for a real answer as far as his thinking in the formulation goes.
But I suspect the amount of phosphorous is so small a percentage that the phosphorous from the insects would never throw you off balance. As Sandrachameleon pointed out, nutrition is often about ratios and balancing, not only about quantity.
The phosphorous is probably inevitably and unavoidably there from some of the other ingredients in the mix (plant matter also contains phosphorous and there is plenty of that in the supplement from things like kelp, calendula, etc). There are no real good standards for this stuff industry wide- most likely he is being honest in his labeling while some others choose to leave that little detail (phosphorous content) off the label of their multivitamins...
He is a very good nutritionist- I would trust his advice.
I suggest you take your concern to Rapeshy for a real answer as far as his thinking in the formulation goes.
But I suspect the amount of phosphorous is so small a percentage that the phosphorous from the insects would never throw you off balance. As Sandrachameleon pointed out, nutrition is often about ratios and balancing, not only about quantity.
The phosphorous is probably inevitably and unavoidably there from some of the other ingredients in the mix (plant matter also contains phosphorous and there is plenty of that in the supplement from things like kelp, calendula, etc). There are no real good standards for this stuff industry wide- most likely he is being honest in his labeling while some others choose to leave that little detail (phosphorous content) off the label of their multivitamins...
He is a very good nutritionist- I would trust his advice.
