Senegal Health Crisis Please Advise

[tonyl73]

Hello, glad i found your wonderful forums...i will write in detail what is going on with our beloved chammy to see if anyone could give advice

We have had Charlie, our senegal chameleon for about four months now. He is housed in huge enclosure containing a ficus tree, and several other plants. His lighting and heating are both very adequate as I read up for a couple of weeks before purchasing Charlie, if memory serves me correct this website served as my "manual" for Chariles setup. Anyway

Charlie has always been very active, climbing up down, has always had a big appetite, 4-6 crickets a day(dusted) and drinks a lot of water. This all changed in the the last week.

My family started noticing that charlie was having trouble eating, he seemed like he wasnt strong enough to eat the crickets, he was barely getting them with his tongue and then the crickets got away before he could bring them to his mouth. Well, i helped him guide them into his mouth but i noticed he only wanted like one or two a day, not what he usually did. Well, he then stopped climbing as high as he used to, not really moving from one spot at all, and then not eating for two straight days, i actually took him and moved him to his water, which i noticed that he drank a great amount for one "session" and now. Yesterday we noticed him laying in the middle of the cage, with his head, body and tail all laying on the "ground", I picked him up and he actually took a couple crickets from my hand and got them down, and hen i moved him back to his water andhe drank. It wasnt long before I noticed he was back in the same position laying spread out.......not showing different colors like he stressed or anything like that......

Today I had enough, I took him to a vet here that people recommend for reptiles. He initially thought that maybe charlie had eggs but couldnt feel any, he gave charlie a shot....said he was a vitamin shot and gave me this tiny little droppers and told me to give charlie gatorade a few times a day and he should be back to his normal self in a few days........hence returning from the vet charlie has gone back to laying flat out in his cage.

Has anyone encountered any actions like this? and is the vet right in his treatment and is there anything i could be doing differently?

Thanks in advance

Tony

 

[Chameleons By Design]

Hello, glad i found your wonderful forums...i will write in detail what is going on with our beloved chammy to see if anyone could give advice

We have had Charlie, our senegal chameleon for about four months now. He is housed in huge enclosure containing a ficus tree, and several other plants. His lighting and heating are both very adequate as I read up for a couple of weeks before purchasing Charlie, if memory serves me correct this website served as my "manual" for Chariles setup. Anyway

Charlie has always been very active, climbing up down, has always had a big appetite, 4-6 crickets a day(dusted) and drinks a lot of water. This all changed in the the last week.

My family started noticing that charlie was having trouble eating, he seemed like he wasnt strong enough to eat the crickets, he was barely getting them with his tongue and then the crickets got away before he could bring them to his mouth. Well, i helped him guide them into his mouth but i noticed he only wanted like one or two a day, not what he usually did. Well, he then stopped climbing as high as he used to, not really moving from one spot at all, and then not eating for two straight days, i actually took him and moved him to his water, which i noticed that he drank a great amount for one "session" and now. Yesterday we noticed him laying in the middle of the cage, with his head, body and tail all laying on the "ground", I picked him up and he actually took a couple crickets from my hand and got them down, and hen i moved him back to his water andhe drank. It wasnt long before I noticed he was back in the same position laying spread out.......not showing different colors like he stressed or anything like that......

Today I had enough, I took him to a vet here that people recommend for reptiles. He initially thought that maybe charlie had eggs but couldnt feel any, he gave charlie a shot....said he was a vitamin shot and gave me this tiny little droppers and told me to give charlie gatorade a few times a day and he should be back to his normal self in a few days........hence returning from the vet charlie has gone back to laying flat out in his cage.

Has anyone encountered any actions like this? and is the vet right in his treatment and is there anything i could be doing differently?

Thanks in advance

Tony

Hi Tony,
The one piece of info that was left out is how old is Charlie? In my experiance (and by no means do I consider myself an expert) Senegals are not very long lived Chams. Your vet is correct in his treatment with keeping him hydrated, the only thing I would change is the gatorade. I have always been told to use pedilyte and water mix a couple times a day. Also keep offering him food by hand dont throw the crickets in the cage to free roam as all it will do is stress him out. Did your vet by chance take a stool sample or do any blood work? If he did take blood thats a plus because the blood will tell you what organs may not be functioning correctly if at all.
Hopefully this will help you with Charlie and Good Luck

 

[Tygerr]

In my experiance (and by no means do I consider myself an expert) Senegals are not very long lived Chams.

Another thing that usually affects their longevity in captivity is the fact that most Senegals on the market are WC chams, which may come with a host of health problems, and also they will endure more stress whilst adjusting to captivity. Do you know if he was wild caught or captive bred? Did the vet check any stool samples for parasites?

I assume you're not actually sure if it is a male or female since you mentioned the possibility of eggs?

Also, you said you had adequate lighting: what fixtures/lighting are you using?

And finally, what is your dusting schedule?

Good luck - I hope Charlie's health improves.

 

[kinyonga]

He gets UVB from tube lights (that does not pass through glass or plastic)?
Does he get any direct sunlight?
Do you supplement the insects or gutload them?
Do you have a substrate in the cage? Is he pooping?
Are you sure its a male?

Although WC Senegals are supposed to be difficult to keep in captivity, once established, I have found them to be no more difficult than veileds or panthers. They do, however have high hydration needs.

You said..."he seemed like he wasnt strong enough to eat the crickets, he was barely getting them with his tongue and then the crickets got away before he could bring them to his mouth"...is he having trouble shooting his tongue out fully or is it just not seeming to be sticky enough? Tongue problems are often due to dehydration or MBD....but there are likely other causes too.

 

[tonyl73]

Im gonna try to answer all your questions, i may have to make this into more than one post if i miss them..........

I have actually just started dusting the crickets, i had not done it until about a month ago when I was told I should......I have been feeding him med/large crickets, some veggies, and some worms.......crickets were the stable of course

my guess is charlie is about six months old, when we got him from the pet store he was very very small, he had a pretty "violent" appetite, meaning he would eat anything near him, he was like a lion stalking it, lol, my guess is that he was wc

he does not get direct sunlight, he has his tube light, and a 100 watt basking light, and his red night light.

he has plenty of substrate in his cage and i have not noticed him poop in quite a few days...

I am not sure its a male, the vet did not take stool or blood samples

kin....his tongue is fine when he lashes it out to get the crickets, its when he gets them to his mouth, before he would just get them down his throat in one to two motions, now he gets them to his mouth with his tongue, and he acts like he cant swallow it, like he doesnt have the strength to overtake the cricket, and its now the size of the cricket cause i have tried all different sizes

Its sad, he looks so out of it and like hes giving up, doesnt move and tonight i tried to hand feed a small cricket, and he turned away and shunned it

 

[Brad Ramsey]

What kind of substrate?
He could be impacted ....it is possible for them to ingest substrate which can result in this problem.
Substrate is not recommended for arboreal chameleons for this reason.

-Brad

 

[tonyl73]

dont know the name offhand, but its the kind you can find in any pet store, its a block that you soak in water and it expands....

 

[studiocham]

Based on my experience with WC subadult Senegals, I'd guess the most likely culprit is parasite bloom, from hidden systemic stress or physical weakening (lack of natural sun exposure). It took 3 rounds to get my juvenile WC Senegals clean, they carry a nasty assortment from an early age. The excessive drinking kinda hints at that, too.

I kept one for just shy of 5 years, so they can live a good lifespan for the average-sized cham. It's one of my fave cham species, particularly if you can get CH or CB. The WC Senegal requires such intensive de-parasitization and recovery from importation that it needs an experienced keeper, not exactly a choice pet.

By active, do you mean Charlie is gray, spotty, or dark and constantly on the move? Does/did Charlie spend many of his daylight hours being bright leaf green and perched happily?

If you followed this site as a manual for your set up, does this site recommend a red night light for chams? This is one light I would remove entirely from the set up. A slight (ten degrees F) night temp drop is beneficial for most chams.

How long is Charlie? Length can help determine if he is truly a subadult.

 

[tonyl73]

hey studio,

your description of spending daylight hours being bright leaf green and perched happily fit him perfectly, and to be honest, hes still pretty leaf green now only changing to darker during our vet trip, hes just not perched happily anymore

His body measure about five inches....from nose to start of tail


he seems to be a little stronger tonight after the shot and a couple doses of gatorade, and some constant misting/drinking, but no apetite today at all, seems like it pisses him off if i take a cricket to him(you know the whole action like he is gonna headbutt me if i dont get it away from him)

you think it could be parasites?

 

[Chameleons By Design]

Im gonna try to answer all your questions, i may have to make this into more than one post if i miss them..........

I have actually just started dusting the crickets, i had not done it until about a month ago when I was told I should......I have been feeding him med/large crickets, some veggies, and some worms.......crickets were the stable of course

my guess is charlie is about six months old, when we got him from the pet store he was very very small, he had a pretty "violent" appetite, meaning he would eat anything near him, he was like a lion stalking it, lol, my guess is that he was wc

he does not get direct sunlight, he has his tube light, and a 100 watt basking light, and his red night light.

he has plenty of substrate in his cage and i have not noticed him poop in quite a few days...

I am not sure its a male, the vet did not take stool or blood samples

kin....his tongue is fine when he lashes it out to get the crickets, its when he gets them to his mouth, before he would just get them down his throat in one to two motions, now he gets them to his mouth with his tongue, and he acts like he cant swallow it, like he doesnt have the strength to overtake the cricket, and its now the size of the cricket cause i have tried all different sizes

Its sad, he looks so out of it and like hes giving up, doesnt move and tonight i tried to hand feed a small cricket, and he turned away and shunned it

Hi Tony,

With what you posted here I would definatly take this animal back to the vet and ask for a fecal float. What this will do is tell you what parasites it may have. You can also treat this animal correctly with the proper meds. After more and more of your explaining it sounds like little Charlie is ailing from parasite infestation.
Good Luck

 

[tonyl73]

what would be the proper meds?

 

[Tygerr]

A vet would have to test a fecal sample to determine exactly what sort of parasites he might have, before the proper medication can be prescribed.

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."Its sad, he looks so out of it and like hes giving up, doesnt move and tonight i tried to hand feed a small cricket, and he turned away and shunned it"...this does sound like he is giving up and/or very sick.

IMHO, from the way you are describing your chameleon's behavior, you need to get him back on track ASAP with the help of a vet. I don't think he will live for long if you don't.

You said that you didn't see any poop recently....I'm wondering if he could be impacted. Also, you need a fresh feces to do a fecal...and if he's not pooping ....the vet will have to deal with it.

You said that you used a red light at night...you shouldn't need to heat the cage at night...and chameleons won't likely sleep well with a light on. A drop in temperature at night won't hurt the chameleon as long as its not too cold.

You said..."I have actually just started dusting the crickets, i had not done it until about a month ago when I was told I should......I have been feeding him med/large crickets, some veggies, and some worms.......crickets were the stable of course"...Senegals are not know to eat veggies. The crickets should be of a size that fits comfortably into the chameleon's mouth. The fact that you weren't dusting the insects for about 3 months could have been long enough to cause him to develop bone issues. What do you use (brands) to dust the insects with and how often do you use each product? Do you gutload the insects?

Can you post a picture of it so that I can see the base of the tail....it should show whether its a male or female.

 

[tonyl73]

i will post a pic as soon as i get home from work, and will be taking him back to the vet tomorrow

 

[tonyl73]

charlie update

Well,

No improvement and until tonight i thought no worse, but just in the last hour, he was climbing around on the foliage near the top of his cage, and he fell straight down to the bottom....and is just laying there, colors dont indicate stress but he looks like he just doesnt wanna climb back. No poop yet, no appetite, he does good taking the gatorade treatments and he doesnt mind me handling him while i do it. Took him back to the vet and got referred to a local reptile specialist, but cant get an appointment until monday morning. My families hearts are breaking(especially my five yr old son) because I think we are all starting to think the worst is gonna happen. I said i would post some pics of him so here they are.........

 

[tonyl73]

few more pics

from earlier and the position his sitting in now.......before you ask, the bottom of his cage is a glass aquarium.....and the enclosure is built on top of that....

 

[kinyonga]

I have to tell you I don't like the looks of this chameleon in some of the pictures....in particular, the bumps on the sides of it, the baggy bit of discoloration below his eyes, the bloated look.

I'm not a vet....but just speaking from experience. I think this chameleon should see one to determine what is wrong with it.

I'm concerned with the substrate in your cage. You said he hasn't pooped recently...and that still makes me wonder if he could be impacted....especially since he looks bloated.

Does he lift his body off the ground/branch when he walks? The bumps in the rib area make me wonder if he could have MBD in spite of the arms/legs looking okay.

I can't see the base of the tail clearly enough in the second picture of him where the tail shows and in the first picture that shows the tail its on too much of an angle....but I think its a male.

Any plans to take him to the vet again?

 

[tonyl73]

another update

thanks for the response kin......ok......about fifteen minutes ago.....he is still in the same place but i noticed him breathing heavy, and lifting up with his legs....he was in obvious discomfort.........and finally, he pooped......i took a picture of it but unless you think you should see it, i wont post it.......im starting to lean towards you being correct with the substrate as a culprit, he has definitely ingested some as he climbed down to get the crickets crawling on the floor of his enclosure........i dont know if you caught it but i have an appointment with a reptile specialist on monday, fastest time they could get me in........he has pooped, its a small amount however, would you like to see?

 

[Dave Weldon]

Howdy Tony,

When you can, post photos of the entire enclosure setup. What part of the world are you located?

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."i dont know if you caught it but i have an appointment with a reptile specialist on monday, fastest time they could get me in"...when I answer a post I'm usually trying to remember several things that I want to respond to...so sometimes I forget about some comments the poster makes! I usually try to cut and paste the parts that I want to comment on...but that is time consuming...and I don't cut and paste the things I don't intend/need to comment on. Hope you get what I mean from this rambling??!!

You said..."he has pooped, its a small amount however, would you like to see?"...it won't hurt to post it. Is there some brown and some white in it?

I hope the visit to the vets goes well!