Search for Parsonii Info

[Todnedo]

I think it is taboo on the forum because most parsonii keepers are still experimenting with techniques, and perhaps don't want to give away all their secrets. I can respect a keeper who does not want to encourage more animals being taken from the wild because a breed becomes popular.

There are very few secrets in Parsonii husbandry.
For those of you who wish to keep Parsonii, to keep just one for your own personal interest and not work toward breeding is a crying shame IMHO.

If you do venture into parsonii husbandry ask the seller:
Date of import.
county of origin
how long has he/she had them.
request a copy of the cites paper work.
demand a health check by a vet before sale.

To buy one without any of the above is simply a waste of time and money on the buyers part.

 

[CNorton]

There are very few secrets in Parsonii husbandry.
For those of you who wish to keep Parsonii, to keep just one for your own personal interest and not work toward breeding is a crying shame IMHO.

If you do venture into parsonii husbandry ask the seller:
Date of import.
county of origin
how long has he/she has had them.
request a copy of the cites paper work.
demand a health check by a vet before sale.

To buy one without any of the above is simply a waste of time and money on the buyers part.

Great advice, I'm glad you added that. If the seller isn't willing to disclose...deal killer.

 

[franklin]

here some nice pics
http://www.sanguefreddo.net/camaleonti/25061-calumma-parsonii-4.html

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

I think the main problem is not with parsonii keepers communicating. It is with parsonii keepers making their notes open to others that were not keeping Parsons chameleons. When the CIN was still around and more specifically when the ban of 1995 happened the keepers that were working towards breeding Parsons were keeping in touch with each other and communicating was not a problem. The main problem was that with such a high profile (plus experimental stages) and the general popularity of this species that the lack of success was demoralizing to the whole hobby and very few people would want to publish or make notes available about an effort to bred a species that was that beloved that turned out as an effort that turned out to be mostly unsuccessful with the exception of a few breeder such as Ken Kalish.

I concur with you though with the evolution of modern chameleon husbandry techniques more information should be made available for every body in the hobby to learn instead of just regretting the outcomes of breeding parsonii efforts in there past.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

I myself was at such a demoralized state that in 1997 due to lack of breeding success, conservation problems and collecting problems with wild chameleons I almost quite the hobby. However for about six years I kept only panthers and in the long run I'm glad I stayed with the hobby.

I do not fault Parsons keepers for keeping their husbandry practices secret I do think more openness should be encouraged though.

 

[summoner12]

There are very few secrets in Parsonii husbandry.
For those of you who wish to keep Parsonii, to keep just one for your own

I don't think 'secrets' is the right word. I think technique is better.....

As I hinted before, parsonii keeping is delicate. A keeper who does one thing could be doing something totally different than another keeper even within a couple of hundred miles of one another, geographically.

I am not saying that it is impossible to collect data on proper temps and feeder and supplement regime, but what works for one keeper may, or may not work for another. Which I think is what some will call technique. The animals habits, enclosure, ambient conditions, health issues, surrounding environment seem to really affect chameleons in general. So now figure all of that into a species that seems pretty tricky.

I remember reading an article about (sorry I don't remember the technical names of the species) chameleons that live out in the desert... they take EXTREME weather swings from freezing temps to boiling hot temps all within a day. This species was attempted to be kept, and with very very very little success with the 'expertise' of biologist familiar with the species and climate the chameleons are from. It just shows how precise some animals need their condition's to be in order to survive.

So what I am saying is... it is a good idea to collect this data, but that people remember, this is a touchy species. It is touchy in the political sense and husbandry. So my 'resistance' towards providing data is mostly in that I don't feel this species should be promoted. I think obtaining parsonii is enough to induct a keeper to the 'network', where help will be provided.

 

[Kent67]

Interesting data from CIN#41:
"According to data from CITES World Conservation Monitoring Centre 18,737 Parson's chameleons were exported from Madagascar from 1986 to 1998. Most were during the 8 years before the suspension in '95. As the heaviest species of chameleon, they weigh between 300 to 600 grams. Let's call it an average of say 450 grams each. That is EIGHT TONS of Parson's chameleons, of which it was estimated roughly 1%(186 pounds)were still alive by Fall 2001. "


This book has the most in-depth information about keeping, breeding, hatching, raising babies of both ssp. of Parson's: http://www.amazon.com/Chameleons-Breeding-Jacksons-Advanced-Vivarium/dp/1882770951/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1273930602&sr=8-1

 

[Titan]

I remember reading an article about (sorry I don't remember the technical names of the species) chameleons that live out in the desert... they take EXTREME weather swings from freezing temps to boiling hot temps all within a day. This species was attempted to be kept, and with very very very little success with the 'expertise' of biologist familiar with the species and climate the chameleons are from. It just shows how precise some animals need their condition's to be in order to survive.

I feel in todays hobby environments can be replicated to suit the species kept, but I must say at times with great cost and and very talented owner abilities. For one to consistantly monitor your Chams health, temperament and overall attitude and appearance. It must be noticed immediatly when things change within the Chams demeanor, (it is also a must monitering this as the Cham grows! CAUSE your setup will need to change with him/her)

Parsonii, Do not move much, and are very content to "just Hang out" BUT, if you do not have this perfect spot for it to be comfortable it can perish in time. So in the very quick begining of getting a Cham, it is highly important to do everything possible to get it to find its comfort zone in "the perfect created environment" This can be frusterating but A VERY important step in keeping delicate species. Things such as a light in the wrong spot - possibly to close to its comfort perch - may cause it to move out of where it trully wants to be. These are all things the owners need to adjust consistently till you can sence your Cham is "truly at home & comfortable!" Next would be its food and water.

And to bring up the Quote above with the desert Cham, it could be as simple (but dificult) as getting the exact food diet that it is offered in the wild. For instance the Desert Cham appears to eat alot of Beetles, which may be a very important piece in that species survival, and nutritional health.
We, many of us, have been able to replicate and suppliment Our pets to lifespans longer than they would have encountered in the wild, Precise breeding, with less removal and more reintroduction to the forests should be a true goal for many of us here. And those that enjoy them as pets, please do so. these are unique and Beautiful creatures, lets all enjoy. + With websites like this, we all can improve our experience with these amazing animals!!!!


I would Like to ask Kent67 here, if all dont mind, about how his newly aquired Parsonii are doing. I know they came in from a troubled importer. and had some health issues?

 

[Kent67]

Of the 8 imported less than a month ago 3 are dead, 4 alive, and 1 unknown to me at this time.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Of the 8 imported less than a month ago 3 are dead, 4 alive, and 1 unknown to me at this time.


This is why everyone is extremely reluctant to post or write information tips on this high profile species. Especially with keepers whom have got their own unique conditions to monitor. If you are still keen to work with this species I would recommend to work with many species and build up as much experience as possible.

 

[CNorton]

Unique situation, condition, or climate... data isn't fouled just because of its particular uniqueness. As long as someone is able to explain and outline the particulars, anyone can benefit from something that is shared.

I'm not sure Motherload if you're speaking to just me or to the community as a whole when you say "work with many species and build up as much experience as possible (before working with parsonii)" but I do agree and I'd like to point out... ALL of the keepers that I'm aware of have considerable experience with many species and I'm PROUD that the few parsonii that have made it into the US are in the hands that they are. But, we are not just a forum of American keepers!! We're a global forum! We can share information so that EVERYONE can benefit! Let's keep that in mind as we learn together and share together.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

I'm not sure Motherload if you're speaking to just me or to the community as a whole when you say "work with many species and build up as much experience as possible (before working with parsonii)" but I do agree

I'm speaking to anyone who is considering working with Parsons chameleons.

 

[Garrett]

"Of the 8 imported less than a month ago 3 are dead, 4 alive, and 1 unknown to me at this time"
This is a really sad statistic Ken, it seems not much has changed from the very first imported parsonii. These animals are so closely tied to their natural environment that husbandry deviations combined with the stress of importation can send them downhill extremely fast. Since most parsonii coming into the country are from "unconfirmed" lineage, papers or not, they should be treated as full blown wild imports from the old days, subject to full vet screens, bloodwork, and aggressive preemptive medicine. Luckily some do end up in the hands of people who have the time and dedication to keep these animals alive. I don't think parsonii are any more difficult than any other chameleon considering:
you have healthy animals to begin with: you are willing to duplicate their natural environment exactly in your living room
It's not all bad news out there, this guy is going on 4 years from an imported juvi... I personally know of imported animals in the 7+year range that are still going strong.

 

[Garrett]

and one of his brides to be-
In keeping with the original intent of this thread, I think the general complaint of "no parsonii information" is a reflection on the misinformed state of parsonii husbandry as a whole. On one side you have the armchair experts that have never even seen a parsonii in the flesh, going on about cites legality, preservation of the species, breeding success yadda yadda. On the other hand a few people who have worked with them on a limited time scale. Any "expert" answer is really only a reflection on what has worked for a specific person, certainly not a rule in keeping these chameleons. It would help if people had specific questions, where those with experience could relate what has worked for them. I personally read over these threads every few weeks and just laugh at the misguided intent.
Flame on!

 

[Kent67]

I don't think parsonii are any more difficult than any other chameleon considering:
you have healthy animals to begin with: you are willing to duplicate their natural environment exactly in your living room
It's not all bad news out there, this guy is going on 4 years from an imported juvi... I personally know of imported animals in the 7+year range that are still going strong.

I tend to agree. They do require more specifics, but once established, can be quite hardy. I've been hearing from a couple people that Philippe and Gigi de Vosjoli still have a trio imported prior to the suspension, and although I haven't spoken to her in a couple years, I bet I know someone else who does, too. The answers to any husbandry questions are out there in print. The Kalisch chapter in that book, articles in backissues of Reptiles, Reptilia, and The Vivarium, Davis' book, websites, etc. Despite recent years' inactivity amongst keepers, this is not a species new to the hobby.

 

[ChameleonAlley]

Not that I plan to get any Parsons any time soon, but I am very interested to hear about keepers that have actually successfully bred and hatched them?

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

You are correct it is not all bad news out there, of about 6 early post ban Parsons breeder I know that were attempting to breed them. 2 actually hatched out babies and one of which I confirmed neonates visually. It can happen just the hatching percentages are still a lot lower than we all would prefer. I'm content with the small numbers of Parsons being exported legally with CITES paper work and with high prices. And I think high prices and low numbers should stay the normal until the captive breeding percentages increase. I mention Ken Kalish since his percentage numbers were for some clutches were at percentages that all Parsons keepers should shot for.

My male Parsons Rhino is 3 years going strong.

 

[Steven Oosterhoff]

Cnorton,

Small remark, in your first post of this topic you mentioned “tight-lipped and malicious keepers. Several people on this forum are talking about keepers. Their is a difference with a keeper and a breeder. As a Calumma Parsonii keeper I can’t find much information about the breeding of Calumma Parsonii’s.

 

[CNorton]

Cnorton,

Small remark, in your first post of this topic you mentioned “tight-lipped and malicious keepers. Several people on this forum are talking about keepers. Their is a difference with a keeper and a breeder. As a Calumma Parsonii keeper I can’t find much information about the breeding of Calumma Parsonii’s.

It is my sincere wish that all keepers of Parsonii would become breeders but I know that is wishful thinking. Thank you for pointing out that there IS a difference between keepers and breeders.



I am still searching in earnest for "the Kalisch chapter in 'Chameleons: Care and Breeding of...,' articles in backissues of Reptiles, Reptilia, and The Vivarium, Davis' book, websites, etc." and have even bought old copies of The Chameleon Journals to learn more.

Consensus so far is that the double diapause has produced the greatest number of healthy babies. Does anyone concur or disagree?

 

[franklin]

In my opinion, although this system has given birth, is not optimal, because the% hatching is low.
I think perhaps too low temperatures were used: parsonii orange eyes (the locality more bred) come from nosy bhora, and on this island for most of the year temperature reach 30 degrees during the day and the night drops at 23-25 °, only a couple of months the temperatures do not exceed 25° durind the day,and drop at 18àduring night.....