Sad Tale of 2 chams Housed Together

[Chameleons Northwest]

Congrats on the stunning male Sandy! So sorry about you're craigslist experiences! I'm glad that those chams got into the care of someone who knows what they're doing and has the time to dedicate to their rehabilitation (or her rehabilitation I guess). I don't remember seeing those chams for sale, I think I was stuck at pams booth for most of the show. I think I would remember that male if I saw him.

I'm glad you chimed in Catherine. I've been dieing to post "I've seen it work!".

Catherine's circumstance and experience may be an exception to the rule, but I really think it should be noted. The pairs she has together are clearly healthy and thriving. I would stress her point that it should never be attempted by anyone who doesn't have a) time to monitor b) space for seperation when required c) experience in keeping and recognizing signs of stress or illness.

Thank you for the input, Royden. I am really looking forward to this year's expo. You saw that Justin Carl may be visiting our area? We get so few forum visitors here in the "Great Northwest". Wish more could make it. Someday I hope to trek out to one of the huge shows in Calif or Fla.

I'm so glad you rescued these two.....I can't believe she was able to lay eggs successfully in the past. You will have to let us know how she does later on.

I am going to chime in on the housing panthers together issue. I do it in certain circumstances and under close supervision. I've got a substantial collection of adult Panthers. I know I may get some heat from certain members here for doing so. I consider myself an experienced keeper and am home all day just about every day. I am in no way advocating that other people should try this. In fact I STRONGLY DISCOURAGE it unless you are home all day to observe as I am, you keep an empty cage ready to move the female to if need be, you are experienced enough to recognize all signs of illness or nutritional issues and you spend a great deal of time observing their behavior as I do.

And I have been spending a great deal of time on my own observing how Panther chameleons interact with each other during the breeding process and before and after in cohabitation situations. It has been a very fascinating project. I have ended up with a number of pairs that live together on a permanent basis (other than egg laying). These pairs have produced numerous clutches together and the females are in good health. It all comes down to the personality of the male. The males in these situations are not aggressive. They pursue the females only when they are receptive. They may bob their heads at the females at non-receptive times, but as soon as the female gives any indication of "NO" they give up. The females all feel comfortable enough to eat and bask normally as though they were in a cage alone. The pairs will often sit side by side for hours at a time. They actually seem to enjoy the companionship and interaction with each other.

I've had an equal number of males who do not have the personality for cohabitation with a female. These males are aggressive and will not let the female live in a way that would be healthy for her. Females are only left with these males long enough to breed and then are removed. I keep a number of sterilized and empty cages at any given time so that I can immediately move chameleons into a new cage for whatever reason. I have two males who don't like females at all, not even for breeding. One male just leaves females alone and will never breed even if she is receptive. I've never seen him be agressive with females. In fact he seems very passive. But they are afraid of him for some reason. They hide and are not comfortable out in the open with him. It's like he sends out negative vibes that people can't detect. I've tried numerous females with him, all with the same result. I have another male who will chase females and try to bite them or bang his head against them in an angry fashion. The females I tried with him were removed immediately and suffered no harm. These two males are obviously unsuitable for cohabitation with a female or breeding for that matter.

So......I have been studying relationships between male and female Panthers in captivity and have found that some pairs can live a healthy life together and seem to enjoy doing so. Having said this, I don't believe that anyone should attempt this unless they are in the same situation I am. I am constantly monitoring my chams during the day, observe their eating and drinking behavior throughout the day, have extra sterile cages to move chameleons to if need be, and readily recognize signs of illness and/or stress. It seems that most keepers have other day jobs, kids at home or other things going on that would prevent them from this kind of observation and attention. To do what I am doing with that kind of personal life schedule would not be responsible and could be very harmful for the chameleons.

I am sharing my experiences to advance the understanding of Panther chameleons in captivity, not to change established "rules". My experiences, which seem to contradict traditional "rules" of keeping Panthers, do in fact support the old "rule". Unless you are in a situation similar to mine, which is probably not the case, keep males and females apart except for breeding.

Good luck with these new additions Gesang's. They are luck chams

Thank you Catherine. I work from our home. But we are also out and about 3-4 days out of the week on business. There is one pair that I could probably house together, if my circumstances were sufficient. With that pair the male, when female is presented for breeding, pretty much sits to his side of the cage and colors and bobs a bit and waits for signals from her. But I realize that doesn't mean it would work for the long haul.

I kept my 2 baby veileds (female) in a cage together until they were 5 months. I made sure that they both got plenty to eat because one is more aggressive then the other. They each had their basking spot and sleeping spot, but I knew it was not ideal. They now each have their own cage and they are much more active and hunt with inhibition! LOL.

Yes, my plan was to do it temporarily, as we hope to be selling the veiled and panther babies eventually.

 

[westcoastchameleons]

Thank you for the input, Royden. I am really looking forward to this year's expo. You saw that Justin Carl may be visiting our area? We get so few forum visitors here in the "Great Northwest". Wish more could make it. Someday I hope to trek out to one of the huge shows in Calif or Fla.

Thats would be fun If you do, let me know!
And as for flordia, I would love to go also!

-Jake

 

[studiocham]

I think this is the link to that thread on RFUK http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/lizards/143480-show-off-your-cham-post1974748.html#post1974748

Phil

Hmmm, guess I was hoping for more details. Neither cohabbing keeper gives the dimensions of the cohabitation cage when asked, and no mention of how long they've been at it... nor how many hours they spend by day watching the chameleons.

PardalisGirl is approaching this correctly, and making changes as needed, the key. I have a male melleri like the overly-aggressive one she described, and he also rostral-punches the females. He challenges other males, displays, chases, but never tones it down to woo and mate. Unlike my other melleri, he lives in solitary because of his behavior. He does make an excellent teaser, though, a great gender detector. It's almost as if his "wiring" is addled, and he interprets all chameleons as male challengers.

To Kat: You'd be surprised how few people notice changes in their pets. I have little faith in the observation skills of average pet owners (keepers here tend to be much better).

Luckily, these two are safe now!

 

[Klemins]

PardalisGirl...

Does the passive male panther you have react to other males in any way...aggressively, or at all? It could be an interesting piece of info in terms of chameleon/reptile sexuality, and even homosexuality, as noted in other reptile/mammal species. Just thought I'd ask, thanks for any info...

 

[dodolah]

the chameleon's eyes photo is shocking...
almost looked unreal and remind me of the "I am Legend" movie.

 

[PardalisGirl]

Klemins......

Hi there Klemins......the passive male (a beautiful Ankaramy) does puff up and display if you put another male in front of his cage. I've offered him three different females over a month and he ignored them all. The females were all receptive but hid from him even though he ignored them. I then put the females in with the passive male's clutch mate and he bred with them normally and the females were receptive to his advances. So, I've got two brothers from the same clutch that act differently. Now that our weather is nice and warm here I was going to try some sunshine "therapy". I've heard (not sure if it's true) that exposure to real sun for periods of time can stimulate the hormones.

I did have a she/he chameleon once. It had no male equipment but the coloration sure looked more male than female. Enough so that other males would react to it as a male and would not breed with it. After it died I did a necropsy and it appeared to be female but did not have any egg strands at all. At the adult age this chameleon was it should have had a strand of tiny follicals or pre-production eggs, etc. that are ready to be fertilized or grow into infertile eggs. Adult females are always in some stage of egg production. There should have been something along those lines present. So it had no male equipment, some of the female equipment and coloring that was much more male than female.

That's about as close to "deviant" sexual behavior as I have seen in chameleons. My cats are another story. We have one male who regularily "humps" a flannel throw blanket. Sometimes five times a day. Now that is wacked. Anyone know a good cat psychiatrist? Catherine

 

[Chameleon Company]

Some great posts here. As to the male, from the one picture, I don't see anything Ambanja about him. He looks pretty standard Diego, in that he's basically two colors throughout. Some Ambanjas can look pretty plain, but the bars of a red-barred Ambanja are more red, the background usually with a touch of aqua towards the extremities, and there's always more color going on with the head, maybe some yellow, etc. I base this on having held about 300 imported Ambanjas over the years, and maybe 100 Diego types. Really good job otherwise. Its just one picture too, and I am not betting my first-born on it.

Catherine, in the wild, many males are known to watch over their "harem" females all season long. With some very large enclosure cages here in the past, we were able to test some of those parameters. I think your observations nailed it on the head.

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

Some great posts here. As to the male, from the one picture, I don't see anything Ambanja about him. He looks pretty standard Diego, in that he's basically two colors throughout. Some Ambanjas can look pretty plain, but the bars of a red-barred Ambanja are more red, the background usually with a touch of aqua towards the extremities, and there's always more color going on with the head, maybe some yellow, etc. I base this on having held about 300 imported Ambanjas over the years, and maybe 100 Diego types. Really good job otherwise. Its just one picture too, and I am not betting my first-born on it.

Catherine, in the wild, many males are known to watch over their "harem" females all season long. With some very large enclosure cages here in the past, we were able to test some of those parameters. I think your observations nailed it on the head.

Here he is in the sun. It doesn't come out too well in photos. But in person he is sort of a neon blue, and green, and red. In the first photo I posted, you just see green and red, the blue doesn't show. These are not retouched photos. I just resized the one and cropped and resized the other. Nice thing is that these are actually his normal resting colors.

When I asked the owners on the phone, before seeing the chams, the husband said they were Sambava or Ambilobe, he could not remember. When we arrived at the house the husband said he remembered, that it is Ambilobe. He is clearly not a Sambava. When I saw the male I kind of thought Ambanja. Although I have seen photos of red bar ambilobes that look like him. And he fires up with a yellow background, but has no yellow in the face otherwise, which I think suggests Ambilobe? He does not respond to a mirror. And only slightly responds to another male. And I don't want to make him crazy. But if I can get photos of his other color patterns, I'll post them. I'll take a photo of his sleeping colors tonight. That may help.

 

[CleanLineChameleons]

When I first saw him I thought Ambilobe mixed with Sambava, though it is impossible to know for sure when Ambilobe is in the picture. The only reason I mention Sambava may be in there is because of the blurry Uish barring but mainly because the red. The red of Sambavas tend to be a more deeper burgundy red than those of RB Ambilobes. But either way he is a good looking male. Sandy I am glad you got a hold of the two, good luck and keep us informed.

-chris

 

[jannb]

He's beautiful!!!! I hope the little girl will be ok. She is so lucky that you rescued her. Jann

 

[chamlover]

Hi Sandy,

Just wanted to say good job!!!! And a great looking boy, whatever he is. lol. I hope you can bring the little girl around, i'm sure you will do the very best possible and the little thing is in great hands. Have fun and good luck.

Debby

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

Thank you, guys. Debby, how is your little buddy doing?

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

The little girl continues to improve! Yesterday afternoon she ate from the rubber tongs without doing the back flip thing. She moved quite a bit more yesterday, too.

These are the guys sleeping colors, taken last night. He's new, so he's sleeping lightly and awoke when I went in with the camera. Any ideas on morph/region?:

 

[Chameleon Company]

Gesang,

Glad she is doing better.

Regarding the male, as debated in other threads, assigning a specific locale without being able to trace it back to where it was caught, or its parents, etc, is a very inexact science. Some locales are quite definitive, such as Nosy Be, as it has finite borders and therefore no interaction with neighboring regions. Others, such as Ambilobe, are bled into, and then bleed out to, other variations that eventually become less Ambilobe and more something else. It often comes down to assigning a Locale that you will have to make the least effort convincing others as to its veracity. Having handled approximately 2000 imported males right off the boat, I offer the following, in consideration of suggestions made earlier in the thread, from most likely to have to make efforts to convince others, to least likely, IMMHO:

1) Ambanja: Nope. Too much of a stretch.

2) Sambava region : Possible, but not the best match. It is on the edge of that bell curve at best.

3) Red bar Ambilobe: A slight stretch as well. In explanation, in the early days of Ambilobe import (2001-2003) the biggest distinction in what was coming in labeled Ambilobe was whether there was blue/turquoise in the bars, or they were just variations of red. Backgrounds could vary, and also change based on mood, season, etc (ie some backgrounds can go from 90% red to 90% yellow over a period of weeks, while some stay red). As one heads north out of Ambilobe, into a huge area where specimens are often referred to as Diego's (after the old name of the northernmost town, Diego Suarez), the chameleons became variations of red and green, firing up yellow background in many specimens. But Ambilobe usually meant another $50 boost to the selling price, and "red bar Ambilobe" stuck as a label for awhile. Its also a valid label, as if it was picked from a tree 75 miles from Ambilobe, its still a further distance to old Diego Suarez. One other characterisitic that disappears as you move away from Ambilobe is that red-orange-pink on the dorsal spikes, and often the entire dorsal ridge area. A majority of Ambilobes have some of this on virtually every spike. The strongest Ambanja and Diego variations do not. There is also all the area in between, geographically and in appearance of the chameleons, where specimens do not fit our neat definitions.

4) Diego: While this animal is potentially of mixed blood if its origins were CBB (for instance, a strong Diego crossed with a weak Ambilobe, or Sambava), it best fits under the bell curve of Diegos that I have seen. Its a big region, and we are seeing some marketing trying to coin mini-locales from the area, such as Joffreville.

Good luck with all.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Had a couple of minutes. Since I raised it, I wanted to illustrate the dorsal characteristics more common to Ambilobe (and some Sambava), where there is red-rose-pink-orange on the dorsal spikes between the barring (above the green-yellow) and then the plainness of a very plain Diego, where this is just one of several characteristics that disappears.

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

Had a couple of minutes. Since I raised it, I wanted to illustrate the dorsal characteristics more common to Ambilobe (and some Sambava), where there is red-rose-pink-orange on the dorsal spikes between the barring (above the green-yellow) and then the plainness of a very plain Diego, where this is just one of several characteristics that disappears.

Thank you for that info. I will bookmark that for future reference.

 

[ponders]

Hi Gesang,
How is the female doing? Hopefully a lot better!

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

Greetings, Ponders, and thank you for asking about our girl. We named her chidiebere, which means God is merciful.

It's been 12 days now. She is doing better.

Her eyes: I think her eyes have corrected just a tiny bit, but she still appears to be technically blind. I should have calibrated the misalignment of each eye so I could have a specific baseline measurement to compare to, but did not. I may do that next time I have her out. When sighting food, she will sometimes tilt her head back a bit and swing it back and forth like Stevie Wonder. It's kind of cute.

Eating: We no longer have to force feed her. She will site the food (but it has to be wiggling A LOT!), move her head toward it, open her mouth just enough to take it in. She is eating more quickly and without putting her body through the strange gyrations she originally did (i.e. going into a deep backbend in order to flatten/stretch her throat and get her tongue to the front of her mouth). She also can eat 3 crickets in less than 20 minutes, more like 7 minutes now. She lets me know when she's had enough, and even though she hasn't even eaten 3 crickets sometimes, I still back off and wait til next time. She's teaching me, and I'm teaching her. She has gained a little over 3 grams.

Poop: She has pooped 3 times. Her urates look good. She has parasites, which she is being treated for with a natural herbal solution right now. She may need something stronger later.

Locomotion: Our vet has taught me to keep very ill chams a little warm at night with a nighttime heatlamp. When I began using it on her at night, her mobility was much better in the morning. She will now crawl forward on her vines in the morning and sit under her mister, drinking and absorbing water. She is crippled, both her rear ankles are bulbous and her one foot is terribly askew, almost backwards. But, if she gets in a good position on her vine she will actually grasp with all 4 feet. She will also now eat from tongs in the morning. (before, if I fed her in the AM it had to be a force feeding.) If she doesn't have the heat at night, then she sits all morning with her eyes closed, looking very pale and stiff. Understand, the nighttime heat is not a basking temp. She is kept in the mid to upper 70's at night. This temperature allows her to sleep deeply, while her body can still function enough to heal. The vet said that when you don't do this, a sick cham can lose all the headway it makes during the day, and then each morning has to start all over. Keeping them warm at night allows the healing process to work toward steady improvement.

I handle her as little as necessary. She gets showers, but I take her, very gently, cage and all. She enjoys it very much. She also goes outside for real sun, but, again, cage and all. She likes to bask in the sun. In order to get her to the shower or the sun I have to unhook her light and undo her misting apparatus, and carry her cage and all, but it is worth it.

Can you believe that somehow this girl recently laid a clutch of eggs and buried them? At her former owners. How did she do that? I don't mind working with her because she has a good spirit about her. She's not easily discouraged, and has a strong will to live.

My goal and hope is to have her cup feeding within 3 months. Right now I don't think she can see anything when she tries to look down. All she will see is the inside edge of the bottom of her eyelid. Her eyes are not centered, and she does not rotate them. She is slowly building some muscle control (lost it from MBD and vitamin deficiencies) in various parts of her body.

 

[cowchick]

Wow, you're doing a great job with them. He's incredibly gorgeous and I'm sure she will turn around in no time under your care...you are very very patient!

 

[ponders]

Wow, glad she's better!

It's just hard to believe that her owners didn't see any of this going on! I guess the male is so beautiful they didn't notice the female going downhill. She must have a great big will to live to have gone thru all that plus lay eggs and still be here today struggling to survive! Good job! Kudo's to you for all the care and effort. Keep up the good work. My vet also told me about keeping them warm at night and in a smaller cage than usual. I used a heating pad that worked well in a small closed room.