Tunnel collapse

[pierce1987]

We have just had our chameleon lay her first clutch of eggs.
We have thought she was going to lay since about jan and it didn’t happen until today.
She dug different holes in the past 5 months. One she got herself stuck between a plant pot and the side of her enclosure. Absolute nightmare and terrifying because she got herself stuck and looked in a bad way.
Then she dug a hole in the lay bin we sorted for her but didn’t use it.
The last week she started to go back in the hole and dig further.
Today she went in the hole and then when we got back home the front of the hole had collapsed and we couldn’t find her.
Panic struck I thought she was buried alive and in the tunnel.
The fear turned into reality and she was infact buried alive in her tunnel.
Completely in shock i dug get out. When I got to her she didn’t look in a good way at all. She was nearly black and eyes sunk in.
There were 60 ish eggs in there. she has finally come round after a bit of time and I hope she is ok. I don’t know what the hell has gone on and what I’ve done wrong.
I used a soil and sand mix and thought it was damp enough not to cave the tunnels in.
It stayed in tact for months while she has dug around in there but today it caved in.
The lay box is what was recommended in the past from people in here. And is about 12 inches deep.
All her temps are right and the ventilation and moisture the only problem we have had is her trying to lay eggs.
I’ve set the enclosure up with the advice of people in here and it’s been massively successful. I’m absolutely heartbroken that she has had to experience what she has today. I thought I was going to find her dead. She is an absolute trooper and I’m so proud of her laying the eggs just not so happy about what she has gone through and the sheer trauma she has caused me incidentally.
What soil mix won’t collapse the tunnels.

 

[MissSkittles]

We have just had our chameleon lay her first clutch of eggs.
We have thought she was going to lay since about jan and it didn’t happen until today.
She dug different holes in the past 5 months. One she got herself stuck between a plant pot and the side of her enclosure. Absolute nightmare and terrifying because she got herself stuck and looked in a bad way.
Then she dug a hole in the lay bin we sorted for her but didn’t use it.
The last week she started to go back in the hole and dig further.
Today she went in the hole and then when we got back home the front of the hole had collapsed and we couldn’t find her.
Panic struck I thought she was buried alive and in the tunnel.
The fear turned into reality and she was infact buried alive in her tunnel.
Completely in shock i dug get out. When I got to her she didn’t look in a good way at all. She was nearly black and eyes sunk in.
There were 60 ish eggs in there. she has finally come round after a bit of time and I hope she is ok. I don’t know what the hell has gone on and what I’ve done wrong.
I used a soil and sand mix and thought it was damp enough not to cave the tunnels in.
It stayed in tact for months while she has dug around in there but today it caved in.
The lay box is what was recommended in the past from people in here. And is about 12 inches deep.
All her temps are right and the ventilation and moisture the only problem we have had is her trying to lay eggs.
I’ve set the enclosure up with the advice of people in here and it’s been massively successful. I’m absolutely heartbroken that she has had to experience what she has today. I thought I was going to find her dead. She is an absolute trooper and I’m so proud of her laying the eggs just not so happy about what she has gone through and the sheer trauma she has caused me incidentally.
What soil mix won’t collapse the tunnels.

Oh my goodness! I really hope that your girl is going to be okay. I had the tunnel collapse on one of my girls before, but I was home and caught it early. I hadn’t ensured the sand was moist enough. Although I haven’t had one of my girls lay eggs in a few years, I make the depth of their bins only about 5-6” deep. In the event that they do lay and there were to be a collapse, the odds of them being able to escape it are better I think.
Sixty eggs is a tremendous amount and that alone could cause different problems for your girl. Have you been limiting temps and food for her? That works for most chameleons, but of course nothing is ever 100%. Here’s my blog that may help you. https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/veiled-chameleon-laying-101.2488/
For substrate, it’s best to use either washed play sand (like that which is used for children’s sand boxes) or the play sand in a 50/50 mix with organic garden soil (additive free - just soil).

 

[pierce1987]

Hi yes I’ve followed all of your advice the heat lamp doesn’t go over 80 at all. The only problem we have had is because the weather has been so nice the heat has often gone above 80 without the lamp even going on. We keep feeding down and makes sure she isn’t over fed. I’ve found your information threads in the past so helpful and informative however we were still unfortunate in what happened yesterday. Her lay bin is a 50/50 mix of the sand and organic topsoil and I did think it was stable enough but I was very clearly wrong.
It held very well. My only guess is when she started to lay she moved around in there too much and it caved in on her.
I really hope she doesn’t lay again anytime soon.
I really thought I’d done it all right and met her needs after going through all of the advice.

 

[MissSkittles]

Hi yes I’ve followed all of your advice the heat lamp doesn’t go over 80 at all. The only problem we have had is because the weather has been so nice the heat has often gone above 80 without the lamp even going on. We keep feeding down and makes sure she isn’t over fed. I’ve found your information threads in the past so helpful and informative however we were still unfortunate in what happened yesterday. Her lay bin is a 50/50 mix of the sand and organic topsoil and I did think it was stable enough but I was very clearly wrong.
It held very well. My only guess is when she started to lay she moved around in there too much and it caved in on her.
I really hope she doesn’t lay again anytime soon.
I really thought I’d done it all right and met her needs after going through all of the advice.

I think it should help to take out some substrate so it is only about 5-6” deep. While in the wild they may dig down 12” or more, they are fine if it is more shallow with us.
It was definitely a challenge for me to limit feeding when I first started and had only girl veileds. I gave them their 3 feeders every Monday, Wednesday and Friday and felt horrible…like I was half starving them. To trick myself into better compliance, I started feeding smaller feeders so that I could give them 4-5 each feeding day and I added a treat on one of the weekend days (usually one of these - silkworm, small/medium hornworm, superworms, 2 waxworms, etc) I do the same with my males essentially, but will give them the larger feeders (if there are any) and 1 extra. I also like the smaller feeders as they don’t have to work so hard to eat larger bugs. I’ve been very fortunate with my girls and this regimen has stopped all egg production. As I said before though, it has varied results and doesn’t work so well for all.
For temps, you may not need a basking light if it gets so hot. You might want to get a dimming fixture and Herpstat to control temps better, or a cooling unit of some sort for her room.

 

[pierce1987]

Hi thanks for the reply. I’ve got a dimmer on it so when it goes to 79f it turns off.
Where do you get silk worms from. I can’t get them from where I live. I’m take the substrate down to 6 inches. Hopefully she recovers well.
She has eaten after laying so that’s good. Just scared the life out of me.

 

[GrannyK]

Hi thanks for the reply. I’ve got a dimmer on it so when it goes to 79f it turns off.
Where do you get silk worms from. I can’t get them from where I live. I’m take the substrate down to 6 inches. Hopefully she recovers well.
She has eaten after laying so that’s good. Just scared the life out of me.

If you are in the US frams chams is a great source for silkworms. How scary! she stays well! exactly why females scare me lol.

 

[pierce1987]

Hi no I’m in the uk

 

[MissSkittles]

I’m not sure where to source silkworms in the UK, but I do know that others have obtained them. Perhaps check with your reptile shops? On this side of the pond, we order on line as most pet stores don’t carry them. If you are feeling adventurous and are able to order silkworms eggs and their chow, you could start breeding your own. It’s a little bit of a challenge, but can be rewarding.

 

[pierce1987]

I think it should help to take out some substrate so it is only about 5-6” deep. While in the wild they may dig down 12” or more, they are fine if it is more shallow with us.
It was definitely a challenge for me to limit feeding when I first started and had only girl veileds. I gave them their 3 feeders every Monday, Wednesday and Friday and felt horrible…like I was half starving them. To trick myself into better compliance, I started feeding smaller feeders so that I could give them 4-5 each feeding day and I added a treat on one of the weekend days (usually one of these - silkworm, small/medium hornworm, superworms, 2 waxworms, etc) I do the same with my males essentially, but will give them the larger feeders (if there are any) and 1 extra. I also like the smaller feeders as they don’t have to work so hard to eat larger bugs. I’ve been very fortunate with my girls and this regimen has stopped all egg production. As I said before though, it has varied results and doesn’t work so well for all.
For temps, you may not need a basking light if it gets so hot. You might want to get a dimming fixture and Herpstat to control temps better, or a cooling unit of some sort for her room.

I’ve just measured the depth of the lay bin and it’s actually 6 inches deep. So it’s already at the recommended depth. And it still collapsed on her. I don’t know what to do. She is still digging around today it’s like she is looking for the eggs or something.

 

[kinyonga]

You said…”I really hope she doesn’t lay again anytime soon”…they can lay every 120 days or so…but with controlled feeding and temperatures they can be pushed to the point where they stop developing eggs altogether…or just less frequently. It’s a bit of a balancing act though..you want to feed them enough that they have the nutrients they need for their own health, but not enough that they can produce lots of eggs. The lower temperature of 80F, I always did to slow down their metabolism. I also did what @MissSkittles suggested…feed them more smaller feeders in the hope that they felt more “satisfied”.

 

[pierce1987]

Thank you. Thats the plan. The temp is sitting at 76f and will turn off if it goes any higher.
When you say small feeders I’m guessing that you mean the insects I feed her??
if so what would you suggest to feed her?
She eats crickets, morio worms and wax worms when I can’t get her to eat or she is being fussy. She never turns a wax worms down.
She isn’t bothered about locusts she doesn’t really entertain them.

The lay bin was only 6 inches deep and she still managed to cave it in so
I need to look at that a bit better.
Whatever I need to do for her I will so she may hopefully slow it down

 

[MissSkittles]

Thank you. Thats the plan. The temp is sitting at 76f and will turn off if it goes any higher.
When you say small feeders I’m guessing that you mean the insects I feed her??
if so what would you suggest to feed her?
She eats crickets, morio worms and wax worms when I can’t get her to eat or she is being fussy. She never turns a wax worms down.
She isn’t bothered about locusts she doesn’t really entertain them.

The lay bin was only 6 inches deep and she still managed to cave it in so
I need to look at that a bit better.
Whatever I need to do for her I will so she may hopefully slow it down

Are you feeding her any vegetable matter (besides the natural plant nibbling)? Has she ever been checked for parasites? I have only have one true ‘picky’ eater (he’s not fond of roaches). When I had another who was very fussy (he would eat only 1 silkworm or silk moth), I had him checked and he did have pinworms. Once those were cleared, he eats everything and has too good of an appetite.
Both morio worms and wax worms are very fatty, and both can be addictive to reptiles and should be as occasional treats only. I give 1/2” (1.3 cm) crickets and other feeder insects of similar size. I’m not sure what types of feeder insects are available to you, but here is something which may help. I only know that hornworms are banned there. I hope this helps some.

 

[kinyonga]

You said…”When you say small feeders I’m guessing that you mean the insects I feed her??”…yes. I used to feed half grown crickets instead of full grown ones. I started out doing that because I had lizards of different sizes so I would buy smaller ones and grow them up…but sometimes I’d run out of the full grown ones and have to feed them smaller ones until I could get more large ones.I figured out that they liked the smaller ones and they were not starving with having less mass so I kept on doing that.