Regarding Calcium w/D3

[aschnell]

And how do you figure that its the only way a balance can be achieved??

It's not at all, don't get me wrong, but it is often easier to use one gutloader or supplement that balances out the nutritional content of the prey item rather than: A) using a gutloader and a supplement, or B) cutting a supplement (that had too much D3 in it) with pure calcium to bring the D3 concentration down to an acceptable level, or C) just using a gutloader and having to worry about how long it's been since the prey item consumed the gutloader and if the prey item is therefore still a balanced source of nutrients or not.

If you're doing your math and mixing and matching supplements that's great, in fact that can be a royal pain so I applaud you! I suppose your initial post confused me a bit, because if you had been feeding RepCal as directed - then the nutritional content of your feeder insects most certainly wouldn't be balanced. I apologize for making assumptions upon which I based my post, I should have asked you for more info on what you meant before responding

 

[ChaoticNightsReptile]

Well this could be why my Grass Lizard project failed. My baby grass lizards would all cease to be around 6 weeks of age. I used a diluted mix of D3 calcium and Calcium no D3 to dust their food once a week. Maybe they were simply consuming too much D3 and perished.

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."it is often easier to use one gutloader or supplement that balances out the nutritional content of the prey item rather than: A) using a gutloader and a supplement, or B) cutting a supplement (that had too much D3 in it) with pure calcium to bring the D3 concentration down to an acceptable level, or C) just using a gutloader and having to worry about how long it's been since the prey item consumed the gutloader and if the prey item is therefore still a balanced source of nutrients or not"...I don't mix/cut/gutload...I use the Rep-cal calcium at every feeding except 4 times a month...two of those I use herptivite at and two I use Rep-cal with D3...and I gutload/feed the insects with the same thing every time...the same thing I feed to my turtles/tortoises and other vegetarian reptiles. There's no math to it and no need to change it unless there is another reptile that it doesn't work with. I'm not convinced that any one gutloader or supplement can provide everything that every species needs.

BTW...I never once have said that I give Rep-cal as directed.

 

[VeiledOwner87]

Cresteds may not need as much D3 as other reptiles, but Cresteds still need D3 precisely because they're nocturnal and don't produce their own D3 via basking.

hense why there is a min amount in repashy. nocturnal species produce d3 matabolism a different way than day time reptiles, to my knowledge and what i've seen and heard, it is through uva, not uvb.

 

[Syn]

hense why there is a min amount in repashy. nocturnal species produce d3 matabolism a different way than day time reptiles, to my knowledge and what i've seen and heard, it is through uva, not uvb.

Citation needed. Do you have anything to back this up? Just wondering.

 

[sandrachameleon]

Do you use Repcal ?

Yes. A large percentage of chameleon keepers in BC (at least those I am in contact with in various other forums and sites, and I think in canada and in the USA in general) use this brand. It is very popular. If you are interested in my methods, check out my blog.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/65-supplements.html
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/174-whats-supplements-brand.html
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/food-diary/

The amounts of D3 in this product is greater than many others, yes. this isnt an issue when used in the correct amount / frequency for the animals in question. No single dusting schedule fits all animal needs. Obviously you need to tailor your usage to the animals requirement, regardless of brand. Sometimes People also forget to consider what goes into their gutloading, and are unaware they are adding D3 in that way too.
Bashing a single product line because it is potent is a bit short sighted. You can overdose on vitamin C and vitamin A too, if you over do it. Balance is the key.

aschnell - you clearly have some passion about this subject. I dont doubt that the letter writer felt what was being said was helpful to a particular situation and as a general advisory. But hopefully you can try to be open to hear what others have to say. RepCal has been used for a very long time by a great many people with very good success. I've used it for over ten years. My chameleons live long healthy lives. My frogs are fine. If you do a little searching on this forum, you'll find many others also use it with success.

ANY Product used incorrectly can cause issues. With a little research, a keeper can determine what is the right (or at least known to work) balance of nutrients for their animal, and choose products and dosages accordingly.

interesting... i was also told to avoid the recal herptivite. apparently it has 10X the amount of vitamin a compared to similar products like reptivite.

Herptivite contains beta carotene (PROformed A) not preformed A (retinol, acetate). Concerns with overdose are with PRE formed vitamin A (such as found in reptivite), not prO-formed vitamin A. Herptivite is therefore very safe.

 

[Syn]

Right Sandra, and for the most part I'm sure this is geared towards those who use it less than sparingly and without realization of how much they are using.

There is a difference between lightly dusting a few feeders and ghost-coating all of the feeders.

 

[sandrachameleon]

Right Sandra, and for the most part I'm sure this is geared towards those who use it less than sparingly and without realization of how much they are using. There is a difference between lightly dusting a few feeders and ghost-coating all of the feeders.

ya agreed. Its a good thread, thanks for starting it - it will make people research, hopefully, about what they are doing rather than just blindly following some schedule somebody gave them or thinking "more is better".

 

[aschnell]

Yes. A large percentage of chameleon keepers in BC (at least those I am in contact with in various other forums and sites, and I think in canada and in the USA in general) use this brand. It is very popular. If you are interested in my methods, check out my blog.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/65-supplements.html
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/174-whats-supplements-brand.html
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/food-diary/

I don't think we disagree on anything, I think we both know a balanced diet is key, but I didn't see any math in your blog... How are you so sure your animals are getting the proper amount of D3 unless you've actually done the math? Using RepCal with D3 less often would be better yes, but I prefer to feed a balanced meal at every feeding.

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The amounts of D3 in this product is greater than many others, yes. this isnt an issue when used in the correct amount / frequency for the animals in question.

And could you define how this supplement should be used "correctly"? Does Repcal provide the amount of their product that should be applied to a prey item before feeding that I'm unaware of? As of right now here are the feeding instructions...
Before feeding insects:
1) Thoroughly mix a 1:1 ratio of Rep-Cal and Herptivite in a plastic bag.
2) Place insects in the bag.
3) Shake slowly until they are completely covered.
No other supplementation is required.
There is no information about how much powder to put in the bag for a certain number of crickets, how big of a bag to use, how long to shake the bag for, etc.

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Bashing a single product line because it is potent is a bit short sighted.

Hmm... So because a product is so potent that it becomes lethal if used as directed for a long enough period of time, I'm considered shortsighted for caring? That seems counterintuitive...

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aschnell - you clearly have some passion about this subject. I dont doubt that the letter writer felt what was being said was helpful to a particular situation and as a general advisory. But hopefully you can try to be open to hear what others have to say. RepCal has been used for a very long time by a great many people with very good success. I've used it for over ten years. My chameleons live long healthy lives. My frogs are fine. If you do a little searching on this forum, you'll find many others also use it with success.

Can you define "success" with anything but personal experience and opinion though? A gradual calcification of the soft tissues in a reptile wouldn't necessarily cause any outward signs of illness. Ask a Vet, they'll tell you it's fairly difficult to tell if an animal is getting too much calcium without somewhat extensive testing. Often times reptiles die form over-calcification of the soft tissue before an owner notices any signs of illness. In your case I don't think you're using RepCal with D3 often enough to cause any major problems (which is great!), but then again without doing the math I have no idea.

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ANY Product used incorrectly can cause issues. With a little research, a keeper can determine what is the right (or at least known to work) balance of nutrients for their animal, and choose products and dosages accordingly.

Sure thing, I absolutely agree. If people would like to dilute RepCal (containing D3) with 54 parts pure calcium for every 1 part RepCal (containing D3) by weight - in order to reach the FDA's safe limit of 5,000 UI/kg of D3 present in a food item - then they're more than welcome to do so. Heck that might even be cheaper than buying a pre-balanced supplement, who knows.

 

[ollygatorsnapper]

wow

that was some good info. i have the repcal supplement but never have used it just the repcal calcium w/o d3. i've been using calc. with d3 from t-rex and they get that once a month if their lucky. and i use the the calcium once a week. not a big believer in lots of supplements, and my veileds look great.

 

[ollygatorsnapper]

-

i love my gator snapper, i get to go out and catch his food for fun, without the need of dusting or lighting, but i keep uvb on him anyway

 

[sandrachameleon]

[...]
...could you define how this supplement should be used "correctly"?

Im not sure what math you are looking for? I do not dilute anything, and i dont mix the calcium with D3 product with a vitamin product, so there is no math required. I've already provided what I feel (based on a great deal of experience and success, and from what I read on this forum its fairly common practise) is the correct dosage for my situation (see links). But as I've said, every situation is different. i cant tell anyone what to do exactly. I can only provide information about what works for me, and why I do what I do. RepCal cant tell you what to do exactly, because they dont know what type of animal you are feeding, what insects you are using, what the insects have been fed, how much vitamin A is in play, etc. They'd need a thick book, not a one inch label. Its up to the owner to learn what is the proper amount to use.

My very experienced exotics vet uses the RepCal products as well, if that somehow has more weight to you than my words.

I do hope I am wrong in thinking this, but it kinda seems you have a narrow focus, and arent really open to what I/others have to say. I dont want to antagonize you further, so I'll stay out of this otherwise interesting thread.

 

[Champeleons]

Right Sandra, and for the most part I'm sure this is geared towards those who use it less than sparingly and without realization of how much they are using.

There is a difference between lightly dusting a few feeders and ghost-coating all of the feeders.

You make me laugh, Syn! Ghostloading, that was cute. Or is it an actual term, not just yours?

 

[aschnell]

Im not sure what math you are looking for? I do not dilute anything, and i dont mix the calcium with D3 product with a vitamin product, so there is no math required. I've already provided what I feel (based on a great deal of experience and success, and from what I read on this forum its fairly common practise) is the correct dosage for my situation (see links). But as I've said, every situation is different. i cant tell anyone what to do exactly. I can only provide information about what works for me, and why I do what I do.

Ok, well you continue to do what you feel is ok, I have no problems with that. I would only say that there is a reason the FDA sent out that letter, and it had nothing to do with how they "feel" about the supplement, it had to do with the measurable concentrations of D3 in a product in comparison to what the average, minimum, and safe concentrations of D3 are. Feelings are great, but I can assure you nutritional science isn't based on feelings.

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RepCal cant tell you what to do exactly, because they dont know what type of animal you are feeding, what insects you are using, what the insects have been fed, how much vitamin A is in play, etc. They'd need a thick book, not a one inch label. Its up to the owner to learn what is the proper amount to use.

Ok, then if it's up to the owner, they should at least put that on the label, agreed?

Also there are supplements designed to be used to balance specific prey items, and even RepCal could provide the different amounts of their product that should generally be applied to maybe 5 or 6 different types of feeders, that really wouldn't take up much label space.

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My very experienced exotics vet uses the RepCal products as well, if that somehow has more weight to you than my words.

I don't have problems with all RepCal products, just this particular one. I'm sure they have other products that are perfectly healthy and beneficial. Could you PM me your Vet's contact info or put it in your next post? I'd like to give him/her a call and maybe forward him/her a copy of the letter.

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I do hope I am wrong in thinking this, but it kinda seems you have a narrow focus, and arent really open to what I/others have to say. I dont want to antagonize you further, so I'll stay out of this otherwise interesting thread.

I do have a narrow focus, it's on the one product and it's particular drawbacks. I am perfectly open to what others have to say, but I don't give a whole lot of weight to feelings about nutritional science, but I do give weight to numbers, concentrations, results, studies, etc.

 

[aschnell]

You make me laugh, Syn! Ghostloading, that was cute. Or is it an actual term, not just yours?

Ha ya I liked that too What about "ghost-dusting"? That would make someone a "ghost-duster" right? Maybe we should get some ghost-busters to talk to the ghost-dusters haha

 

[Syn]

You make me laugh, Syn! Ghostloading, that was cute. Or is it an actual term, not just yours?

Ghost-coating is just a term I coined for people who over dust their crickets. I don't use it often because it's not really discussed.

Ha ya I liked that too What about "ghost-dusting"? That would make someone a "ghost-duster" right? Maybe we should get some ghost-busters to talk to the ghost-dusters haha

LMAO GHOST BUSTERSSS.