Rant-The Science of Raising Chameleons

[Julirs]

I guess I am a little disturbed lately that people tend to listen to "The Voice of Nice" rather than the "Voice of Experience". People need to be careful on a forum such as this to help beginners start out with the best possible sucess rate. What works for one does not work for all, but there are some commonalities that are proven to work.

It is difficult when starting out to know-especially on a forum-who to listen to. I guess I was lucky, here in FL I am surrounded by some incredibly talented and long term keepers. I was involved with them prior to being on this forum, and I had someone to point me in the right direction.

Chameleon keeping is a Science. I personally keep all of my reptiles as "pets" so to speak, but am considerate of their "pre-programmed" nature. These guys have "purposed" brains. They are not mammals, they do NOT enjoy tons of interaction, and they are easily stressed. They are also individuals, and one does not act exactly like another. People need to respect all of these factors.

 

[chams1]

Very well said, Juli, and I couldn't agree more.

 

[draetish]

From the voice of a true "Senior" member that has contributed so much to members on this forum. Sometimes it takes a blunt comment to make a point and it is not meant to be mean or disrespectful. The main goal of this forum is to benefit chameleons not their keepers feelings.

 

[Cainschams]

Sometimes it takes a blunt comment to make a point and it is not meant to be mean or disrespectful. The main goal of this forum is to benefit chameleons not their keepers feelings.

I agree with this and Julirs post. There are many times I see a thread with a chameleon in it and everyone is saying how nice it looks when to me the cham does not look to be in optimal shape (under/ over weight, edema, etc.). Usually I do not say anything because I dont feel like getting in an argument or hurting someones feelings. I should probably speak up regardless but I do not. I feel the main point of the forum is to spread correct husbandry practices and experiences first and to make friends second. Its a shame how some people take a little criticism.

 

[lisa h]

I agree with this and Julirs post. There are many times I see a thread with a chameleon in it and everyone is saying how nice it looks when to me the cham does not look to be in optimal shape (under/ over weight, edema, etc.). Usually I do not say anything because I dont feel like getting in an argument or hurting someones feelings. I should probably speak up regardless but I do not. I feel the main point of the forum is to spread correct husbandry practices and experiences first and to make friends second. Its a shame how some people take a little criticism.

I, for one, would appreciate the criticism (as long as it's constructive). I have asked questions before, and got the usual "I can't help you, but I hope it goes well", "let's see pictures!", etc. when what I really want is some good advice and some help. There have been times when I got nothing and have pm'd a senior member or two to see if they could help, but got no response at all. Everyone has to learn somehow, and if I ask a question I would really like an answer. Some people don't want to hear the truth, but there are people here who want to better their chameleon husbandry. JMO

 

[eisentrauti]

Well said. Some days ago I replayed to a thread with the topic "Is a fogger good or bad for panthers". I gave the points which show clearly that a fogger is completely unnecessary and a breeding place for bacteriums but the thread starter didn't even listen to it. So why did the person ask ?

Another point: Those senior member or reputation point system is a false friend for beginners. What defines a "senior" member ? The number of posts ? How long sb is a member ? Does this correlate with experience ? Maybe in the majority yes but in many others clearly no.
It's a bad joke when persons like Steven Deckers or Tom Verbreaken have less green points than somebody whos main interest it is to tell everybody in every second thread how beautiful his/her cage/chameleon is

 

[eisentrauti]

...to spread correct husbandry practices and experiences first and to make friends second. Its a shame how some people take a little criticism.

Damn true. How often can wee see dehydrated chameleons in bad shape or enclosures which include one plant and one "fake wine". (One question about this: Aren't there any trees in America ? I mean everybody can afford fake wine stuff but 90% of the beginners use horrible bad light stuff for their enclosures, but they have the money to buy fake wines...)
It's even worse that the majority of those new keepers have obviously never read a book about chameleons before. They buy the things from their pet store and because on the package it's something written with "reptile..."prefix it must be good !
And of course the well educated guy from the pet shop says the same. So this has to be true ! ...

 

[Cainschams]

I, for one, would appreciate the criticism (as long as it's constructive). I have asked questions before, and got the usual "I can't help you, but I hope it goes well", "let's see pictures!", etc. when what I really want is some good advice and some help. There have been times when I got nothing and have pm'd a senior member or two to see if they could help, but got no response at all. Everyone has to learn somehow, and if I ask a question I would really like an answer. Some people don't want to hear the truth, but there are people here who want to better their chameleon husbandry. JMO

I did say some people You or anyone else can feel free to PM me at any time. I like to think I can answer questions in a friendly matter with no attitude no matter how bad the husbandry. Hell, anyone can feel free to give me a call (inside the states). My number is plastered all over the forums but here it is again. 304 771 6970

 

[Julirs]

I, for one, would appreciate the criticism (as long as it's constructive). I have asked questions before, and got the usual "I can't help you, but I hope it goes well", "let's see pictures!", etc. when what I really want is some good advice and some help. There have been times when I got nothing and have pm'd a senior member or two to see if they could help, but got no response at all. Everyone has to learn somehow, and if I ask a question I would really like an answer. Some people don't want to hear the truth, but there are people here who want to better their chameleon husbandry. JMO

I too am always happy to help in a friendly manner when someone reaches out and is willing to listen. My phone number is on my website that is in my signature here. I have had numerous people over to the house, looked at sick chams, taken in people's rescues when they could not take care of them any longer, and have met tons of people at shows where I take the time to talk to them about keeping and walk them around to buy the right supplies. I get several calls a week, and am happy to talk provided I am not at work, where I am 60+ hours weekly. If I don't PM someone back it is because I did not get the PM or I accidentally missed it.

 

[Olimpia]

I agree to a point, but I have to say that sometimes (hell, even I'm guilty of it after a long day or something) we leave comments that read agressively or rudely, and that turns off people to advice. "Why listen to this jerk," right? Sometimes people get rude even when there's nothing wrong in husbandry, just not the way everyone likes it. Like I remember seeing someone post photos of their drainage system, very proud of themselves, and 95% of everyone just went in to say how ugly it was and some other nonsense. If it works for them, then why criticize things like that.

If I can, I try to give good with the bad. Like, yes your chameleon is beautiful, but his cage needs this and that done to it so that he stays beautiful and healthy. We should always give constructive criticism when it's needed, but we only downplay our advice by not being polite and kind. After all, it's not like people do incorrect things out of malice, just ignorance. And I for one might not come back to the site if I asked a question and got the responses some newbies get.

The voice of experience doesn't have to be the voice of anger and frustration
And I love your signature Julirs!

 

[Julirs]

I agree to a point, but I have to say that sometimes (hell, even I'm guilty of it after a long day or something) we leave comments that read agressively or rudely, and that turns off people to advice. "Why listen to this jerk," right? Sometimes people get rude even when there's nothing wrong in husbandry, just not the way everyone likes it. Like I remember seeing someone post photos of their drainage system, very proud of themselves, and 95% of everyone just went in to say how ugly it was and some other nonsense. If it works for them, then why criticize things like that.

If I can, I try to give good with the bad. Like, yes your chameleon is beautiful, but his cage needs this and that done to it so that he stays beautiful and healthy. We should always give constructive criticism when it's needed, but we only downplay our advice by not being polite and kind. After all, it's not like people do incorrect things out of malice, just ignorance. And I for one might not come back to the site if I asked a question and got the responses some newbies get.

The voice of experience doesn't have to be the voice of anger and frustration

I agree with this. We can all be guilty sometimes. I guess I tend to get borderline nasty when something is completely bizarre, or even more so when someone goes against everyones sound advice, or more so yet when someone is endangering an animal.

What angers me more though is when people ARE giving constructive feedback in a "frank" way, and people jump in with the "sweetness and praise". I just don't think it helps anyone to tell them they are doing a great job when there are 10+ things they need to fix.

 

[laurie]

if I may let me jump in. As a Senior Member, I am offended that i have a rating higher than a lot of others on this forum. Yes I am always willing to help, yes I answer pm's and do what I can BUT I don't feel I have knowledge that even comes close to Julirs, Jared, Luis, Brad and the list goes on. I often stay out of a thread because i am not 100% confident of my answers. I wish a lot of other people would do that also.

Easy questions, yep I can answer those all day & will. But we have several people on here (you all know them as well as I do) who are senior members, and some who aren't but they jump in with advice that misses the mark. Maybe we could all stick to what we know & not offer advice we have read or just think we know. jmo

 

[laurie]

I am bring this to the top because I feel more people need to read it. Maybe some of the people who give questionable advice want to add their opinions??

 

[Syn]

Great post Juli, no idea why I hadn't seen this sooner. Wish there was something I could add but your pretty much said everything there needs to be said, as well as everyone else who has brought their opinions to the table.

Speaking of, I recently got a PM from someone which irked me a little. I'll cut out the details that could be specific as to who sent it, but it has me wondering how many other people feel like this and some days it makes me want to stop posting altogether... if I'm going to get PMs like this, why bother?

[...]it just seems like you have a lot of negative two cents the way you word things here. from what i read from you, you come of very sarcastic, you state the obvious, or you dont do what youre suppost to do on here and help. ex. there are countless posts with a simple answer of "why dont you use the search button" blah blah, like help man, noobs that dont have countless hours on here dont know how to use it. sometimes the search doesnt find what you want. your just very obvious sometimes when you dont need to be. sry if i offended you,[...]

 

[FFSTRescue]

Good thread, I must have missed this one. There is nothing worse than when someone gives incorrect medical advice... it drives me crazy! There was once a post several months back of one person telling someone how to manage an eye infection, and the advice was detrimental. If people are giving advice based on what they have done with their own chameleons without expert advice, such as from a vet, they need to not be doing so, as it will cause much more harm than good, and most people need to not be giving medical advice in general.
And about the overly sensitive new people that come on here, it does get very frustrating when you try to help someone and they didn't like your "tone" so they ignore the advice you gave, insult you and run off, and never come back to this forum. I was being very kind to someone the other day trying to help them, and I stated a fact (couldn't have been in a nicer way unless I added a smile) and I got called several very vulgar names, and some posts had to be removed, all because the person interpreted my post incorrectly and because they were overly sensitive to any form of advice, though it be constructive. That does turn me off from wanting to help people at times, or give advice. People need to not be so sensitive and realize that a direct comment that is constructive is not an insult... I'm tired of having to end every post with a smiley face, lol .

 

[Syn]

Hey Kristen....

Being a forum, you can't really tell a person's attitude. Sometimes they are trying to be incredibly nice and other times they are trying to be rude. How you interpret the words off a screen will determine your reply. Not everyone is out to get a person, and if anything, assume they mean everything in the nicest way.

 

[lisa h]

Great post Juli, no idea why I hadn't seen this sooner. Wish there was something I could add but your pretty much said everything there needs to be said, as well as everyone else who has brought their opinions to the table.

Speaking of, I recently got a PM from someone which irked me a little. I'll cut out the details that could be specific as to who sent it, but it has me wondering how many other people feel like this and some days it makes me want to stop posting altogether... if I'm going to get PMs like this, why bother?

I hope you bother because there are some of us who want to learn, and have learned *a lot* since we've been here, and want to continue learning. If you "state the obvious" enough times people will learn (or get bored and leave the forums). Some people want you to say what they want to hear. They probably won't stay on the list very long, their animal may suffer for it, they may decide to get rid of it, whatever. Sometimes people's criticism is nasty, and that will turn people off (I don't mean yours). There are some people that hate "noobs", forgetting that we all started there -- every one of us. Please keep helping folks if it doesn't take too much out of you.

 

[FFSTRescue]

Hey Kristen....

Being a forum, you can't really tell a person's attitude. Sometimes they are trying to be incredibly nice and other times they are trying to be rude. How you interpret the words off a screen will determine your reply. Not everyone is out to get a person, and if anything, assume they mean everything in the nicest way.

Exactly. Much of it depends on the mood of the OP, as I read a thread once where everyone was kind, but the OP thought that everyone was insulting him/her. Two completely different views, mine and his or hers.

 

[Syn]

I think I'm going to start using my blog as a diary.

 

[radstusky]

Exactly. Much of it depends on the mood of the OP, as I read a thread once where everyone was kind, but the OP thought that everyone was insulting him/her. Two completely different views, mine and his or hers.

I agree with this 100% Without being able to hear the tone of voice, mild criticisms or advice that is meant to be helpful are often interpreted in the worst possible way. I find this with emails also, so when offering advice it's best to try to word it such that it can't be taken too harshly. I've read threads here, as I'm sure everyone else has, where the OP totally got bent out of shape when someone gave them what they interpreted as harsh advice when in reality the person offering help was just being straightforward and honest. As in for example "you need to take that cham to the vet ASAP! he looks very dehydrated" (or something along those lines) I'm sure there are quite a few examples like this on this forum.