Pothos toxicity, what's up with it???

[jamest0o0]

So one thing that nags me about the info given on these forums is that you will see people recommend pothos constantly, but then tell you another plant, with the same defense as pothos, is toxic. Would like to hear from anyone that knows a bit about plant toxins. I admit, I'm no expert on the subject, just a simple understanding. So pothos basically have oxalate crystals which are like tiny pieces of glass. My thinking is that chams digest so little of the leaf that they don't actually get much of this to irritate them. Oddly, cats are bothered by it and I do not think they digest much, if any, vegetation either. Very big leap between cat and chameleon, but just a thought. High oxalates are a reason people say to stay away from spinach as a gutload, but I guess in that sense, they may get more of them due to the insect processing the plant material. Oxalates can also interfere with calcium absorption, create gout like crystals, and kidney issues.

So I'd just like to discuss this if anyone's interested or if I'm missing something here... maybe we should stop saying 'this plant is toxic, this plant isn't' and start saying this particular toxin is dangerous to chams or this one isn't. It's not hard to Google what toxin a plant actually has.

I'm not trying to pick on anyone here. I've done this, and so many others have, but now it drives me crazy because I feel it is one of those things we're all just repeating without understanding.

@PetNcs says veileds should live 12 years... how are most veileds that are kept otherwise healthy dying before then? It's a longshot, but could longterm high oxalate plant leaves be slowly hurting their overall health as well as obesity and overfeeding?

 

[AmandaS]

Zero input here, just came for the comments.
Very interesting subject that I have been curious about since first coming into the hobby.

 

[JoXie411]

I know the best person for the job @AnamCara you know a little about poisonous plants

On the note your getting at, I was asking myself the same question yesterday when I told someone no on Calla lily. The side effects when eaten are the same as a Pothos so why did I say no to calla lily and yes to Pothos? I know some ppl say to be more careful with veileds because they are more likely to eat plant matter. I would also love the answer to this. My mind is open , #changeMymind

 

[The Wild One]

Following this, I’d like to see where it could go.

 

[Pickle-cham]

Dont think its much help but i have previously encountered using pothos plant in aquaria and known it is toxic to felines & mammals but not too my fish eating it. I know chameleon is a far cry from a boney fish, but dont know what a fish has or has not too allow it to be immune from the toxicity of the devils ivy.

 

[JacksJill]

I can tell you that cats have more delicate kidneys than dogs or humans. It is their Achilles heel.

 

[Kaizen]

To be honest, I don’t put much stock in the toxic/non-toxic lists. I use pothos, but I also use a ton of other plants listed as no-nos. As for veileds living 12 years, I think it’s not just a matter of husbandry. Genetics will play a huge role, and I doubt many veiled breeders are breeding for longevity.

 

[MissSkittles]

As a cat lover, I had to give up on having any house plants as my cats always eat them. Pothos, philodendron, tiny sago palm, etc...they eat them all. Never had any that had any adverse effects from it. It’s a challenge now that I’ve started keeping plants again for the chams and keep the extra plants around the house. I only have so many places that the cats can’t get to.

 

[jamest0o0]

I can tell you that cats have more delicate kidneys than dogs or humans. It is their Achilles heel.

I could tell you that lol, spent thousands on my damn cat getting kidney tests.

Don't chams have delicate kidneys though too?

 

[MissSkittles]

We need a plant biologist and a chameleon microbiologist.

 

[jamest0o0]

To be honest, I don’t put much stock in the toxic/non-toxic lists. I use pothos, but I also use a ton of other plants listed as no-nos. As for veileds living 12 years, I think it’s not just a matter of husbandry. Genetics will play a huge role, and I doubt many veiled breeders are breeding for longevity.

Right, I agree with this, but I'm more so wondering why some things are safe, some things aren't and pointing out maybe we should be more consistent with our advice. Or maybe we aren't seeing the signs of damage it causes. I've sworn off those plant lists for a while now lol.

 

[JacksJill]

My understanding is that a house cat has a highly efficient kidney that helps them retain water in their body longer. I don't know the details of chameleon kidneys. I know part of their vulnerability is that they are partially located in the pelvic canal so egg binding and possibly obstruction can put pressure on them. I wish I knew more about their physiology.

 

[JacksJill]

Mine have never eaten plants except one male took one bite of a schefflera one time. He lived for years after that so I can't draw any conclusions. If I owned veiled this would be an area of concern for me.

 

[The Wild One]

We need a plant biologist and a chameleon microbiologist.

I mean I haven’t gone to college yet soooooo maybe in a few years? ?

 

[AmandaS]

I took an agricultural course a few years ago....it did not prepare me for this kind of information..

Now, if you need a good fertilizer for your corn crops, give me a holler. Lol

 

[kinyonga]

I wonder if the lack of the loop of henle in a chameleons kidneys makes them able to handle the oxalates passing through the kidneys?

 

[Persnickety Parson's]

Bear in mind these lists were written for mammals and birds, back in the dark ages where reptile keeping was an afterthought.

What causes toxicity issues for mammals won't phase a bird or reptile, in most cases. And plants that mammals and birds can handle will cause issues for reptiles. (Spinach/kale)

What we need are actual studies in which reptiles are forced to ingest certain plants to see what causes issues for them and them alone.

Case and point, poison ivy berries are highly toxic to mammals, but birds, especially downy woodpeckers eat them right up.

 

[kinyonga]

I do remember reading about pothos and oxalates somewhere and that at least the oxalares I pothos are calcium oxalates and already bound together so they don't deplete the calcium from the chameleons when ingested like unbound oxalates do. I don't think it talked about toxicity though. I'm going to look for it now.

 

[kinyonga]

Found it...
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/pothos.974/

 

[cyberlocc]

So there is a Safe for Tortiose plant list, that I really like.

Because it breaks things down. It doesn't just say "ITS TOXIC, DONT USE"

It says the toxicity level, 1-3/5, or something (it was color coded). I'll have to find it again.

I linked it here recently. When we were discussing Ivy which BTW is only VERY mildly, like pothos level of toxic to reptiles.

Most Euphorbia are toxic, honestly most succulents really. However I still know quite a few people use them. Some have even had their animal eat them with no ill effects.

I think we need to differante like Persnickety said, between "Stomach Ache" and "Death" and some of the stages in between. Which the Tortiose list was the first I have seen that actually did that at all, mustless for a Reptile.