parsons ?

[Kent67]

If there had ever been a single year when more Parson's were hatched in captivity than exported/smuggled from Madagascar I would agree that there's a chance. Many, many experienced chameleon breeders have been working with Parson's for over 20 years and the numbers produced vs imported has never been close. For 20 years I've been hearing the same thing about captive breeding conserving the species but I don't see how that's realistic, considering the history.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

If enough continuous Parsons forests in Madagascar are conserved and contemporary agriculture/forestry practices are applied with some quotas. Smuggling and captive breeding is going to be much less of an issue/concern. As to maintain successful captive breeding programs require occasional wild caught animals to maintain sustainability (genetics) in captive population as seen with other captive bred species (Pardalis). This forestry conservation is the main issue and should be priority first above all other issues that surround Parsons chameleons. If this main issue addressed and done all other issues are going to be significantly reduced.

If you have not got conserved Parsons habitat your not going to have Parsons to breed or to smuggle.

 

[kinyonga]

Littlehorn said..."there are already a group of very passionate people who conserves this specie of tortoise"...how do they conserve it? Breed and then put them back into the wild?

You said...."is it really because their incubation is very difficult (although it is slightly)"....have you hatched them in order to know that it is only slightly more difficult?

Mother Lode Chameleon...you said..."Smuggling and captive breeding is going to be much less of an issue/concern"...I think smuggling will continue regardless of how many are in the wild as long as it remains profitable.

 

[Littlehorn]

Littlehorn said..."there are already a group of very passionate people who conserves this specie of tortoise"...how do they conserve it? Breed and then put them back into the wild?

You said...."is it really because their incubation is very difficult (although it is slightly)"....have you hatched them in order to know that it is only slightly more difficult?

Mother Lode Chameleon...you said..."Smuggling and captive breeding is going to be much less of an issue/concern"...I think smuggling will continue regardless of how many are in the wild as long as it remains profitable.

1./ Yes mate, I have eggs cooking since last September. And as far as I have seen. We have a batch of 23 CBB C. parsonii hatched by a keeper here in 2010 (which was ~85% hatch rate), we also have CBB C. globifer hatched in 2009. All of the above animal was not sold out to the public, instead they were kept as breeder for future.
*** Five of the 2010 parsonii will be donated to one of the local zoo for display by the end of this year.

2./ I do agree that no matter what breeding program there is, the most important thing is to stop the destruction of their natural habitat. Because with every problem, I believe we should find the answer from the source. Even if the parsonii (or any other animal) breeding program is successful, there is still no use if there is no natural environment for them to live in.

3./ Either you call it black market/ smuggling, I think it is always two side of a coin. First it is up to the consumer (buyer) responsibility not to buy smuggled animals, if they don't buy it, then therez no money making for the smugglers, hence.... Second of all, it is also for the consumer to learn that some of the things that they just can afford (not on money) to keep and they shouldn't keep. (I love crocs.. really love them and I can be 100% sure to tell you that I have ways to buy a croc in HKG. I also have the space I will need to keep one, but would I actually buy one and keep at home... ***I have a wife, a 3 year old kid*** would I ever really consider to keep a croc at home...??)

 

[kinyonga]

Again...Littlehorn said..."there are already a group of very passionate people who conserves this specie of tortoise"...how do they conserve it? Breed and then put them back into the wild?

Good to hear that you have hatched some. Did you lose any of the hatchlings?

I agree with what you say in your second point.

In your third point you are expecting the consumer/buyer to have integrity and self-control...but I think people who buy them don't have that and there will always be people who don't.

 

[sdheli420]

Sorry if this sounds harsh but IMHO its true...a year and a half is not much experience when it comes to chameleons. When you can say that your veiled females all live to be over 6 years old and the males at least that long too....when you can keep/raise other species for extended lengths of time then IMHO you might be ready/able to keep a Parson's alive. I've had 20+ years experience and quite a few Parson's in the "good old days" and would still be hesitant to have another one now.

Of course, you could have "beginners luck" and keep one alive for a while.
Good luck!

i have 16 years of experience in various species of chameleons (panthers, jacksons, johnstonii, carpets, veileds, fischeri, pygmies, flapnecks, mellers..and a few brooksia) i still am afraid to care for a parsons chameleon!!!..its my next stop, i would like to make a small room a parsonii free range..but im still afraid to do so..i feel like i could still learn a few more things..or master breeding feeders for them(they eat quite a bit) first...(hornworms, dubias, butters, ect ect..)..i would say it would be safe to spend about 3 or 4 years breeding and caring for some mountainous species before going for a parsons..

 

[Elizadolots]

I was under the impression it was a long term goal of the OP to own a Parsons and he(?) is starting his research early in order to be as learned as possible.

Did I misread that?

I mean, I appreciate the considerable amount of advice that's been given, that's all good, but mixed in was a bit of "how dare you think you can just go get yourself a Parson!" which was a bit weird.

Ah, well...maybe me being wrong, yet again...

 

[Ace]

i actually agree with you Elizadolots, Ellen right?, haha depending what the OP would say this thread could of been another cyber battle field

 

[Rob G]

Elizadots, I did say it was the very long term goal. I did kind of get the vibe of the how dare you, but it is understandable seeing how rare/expensive they are and the detailed enclosure and feeding. And reading the replies from the way I see it is that deffinately more than 10 years working with other various montane species before attempting a shot with a parsons

 

[Elizadolots]

Yes, but while I did reveal that, I sort of hold to the "internet should be safe, lie through your teeth" philosophy...sadly, after a couple of glasses of wine I was feeling warm and cuddly so posted my name...I wasn't able to go back and edit that, much to my chagrin.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Mother Lode Chameleon...you said..."Smuggling and captive breeding is going to be much less of an issue/concern"...I think smuggling will continue regardless of how many are in the wild as long as it remains profitable.

I did not say it was going to stop smuggling, I just think with out conserving and restoring habitat (especially with recent political problems) in the first place, there are not going to be chameleons to smuggle or captive breed. From what I have heard (on these forums) though their are a couple places that have got F2 CITES recognized Parsons that would be legal to buy today. I just think as a privileged and justifying working with these animals that these chameleons should have enough continuous forest conserved in their native ranges first. When that is done other problems such as captive breeding and smuggling (of course still illegal) are lessened. Due to lessened threats of habitat loss and low wild population numbers.

 

[Elizadolots]

Rob, I think a 5 to 10 year goal is perfectly reasonable for getting the experience you need and establishing the contacts who can help you before acquiring one of those amazing animals.

 

[Ace]

Yes, but while I did reveal that, I sort of hold to the "internet should be safe, lie through your teeth" philosophy...sadly, after a couple of glasses of wine I was feeling warm and cuddly so posted my name...I wasn't able to go back and edit that, much to my chagrin.

oh wow , i'm sorry i mentioned it didnt mean to bring anything up, i understand what you are saying though, its a fine reason

out of all days i remember something of what a forum member posted long ago, my bad

 

[Elizadolots]

No problem, Ace, it was my bad. Sadly, I've been stupid and if you google my handle and have the patience to wade through a few pages, you'll eventually know exactly who I am...I just sort of hate to be reminded of how stupid I can be.

I do wish that was something that I could have edited though...

 

[Littlehorn]

i actually agree with you Elizadolots, Ellen right?, haha depending what the OP would say this thread could of been another cyber battle field

No arguing at all. No cyber battle field. lol

I just tried to point out whenever there is a problem in any matters, we should not blame others and look at our-selves first. Anyway this has gone away too far from the original topic.
------------------------------

Referring back to the original of this topic. I would say that if one day you have gather all the knowledges needed, you know what you are doing, you have your resources, you have your time in dedicating to C. parsonii, then why not give it a go.
I just want to point out there is a lot of dedication, determination and also sacrifice if your would like to work with any animals (not only parsonii).
But one of the things I would strongly pointed out is that C. parsonii are not some godly untouchable thing... they are also hardy chameleons if you can meet their specific needs.
When animals died in captivity, I believe there are only 2 major reasons for it;
1./ The person who owns the animal did not do what he is supposed to do.
2./ The person who owns the animal is not doing what he is supposed to do

 

[sdheli420]

Rob, I think a 5 to 10 year goal is perfectly reasonable for getting the experience you need and establishing the contacts who can help you before acquiring one of those amazing animals.

i think its totally reasonable as well..nothing wrong with having goals..i WILL own one hopefully very soon (im actually going to sell my older gsxr crotch rocket to pay for it)..i just hope ive had enough time with these lil creatures that it all comes as second nature to care for a parsons..

 

[Ace]

No arguing at all. No cyber battle field. lol

I just tried to point out whenever there is a problem in any matters, we should not blame others and look at our-selves first. Anyway this has gone away too far from the original topic.
------------------------------

Referring back to the original of this topic. I would say that if one day you have gather all the knowledges needed, you know what you are doing, you have your resources, you have your time in dedicating to C. parsonii, then why not give it a go.
I just want to point out there is a lot of dedication, determination and also sacrifice if your would like to work with any animals (not only parsonii).
But one of the things I would strongly pointed out is that C. parsonii are not some godly untouchable thing... they are also hardy chameleons if you can meet their specific needs.
When animals died in captivity, I believe there are only 2 major reasons for it;
1./ The person who owns the animal did not do what he is supposed to do.
2./ The person who owns the animal is not doing what he is supposed to do

lol i wasnt pointing anyone and cetainly not you nor motherlode chameleon.

the points you mentioned i definately agree with you, people dont see parsons as "reachable" as they should be seen, rather in a unreached pedestal and being afraid they should be determined and with experience/patience and dedication anything is possible, in my eyes

I am fortunate enough to have seen a female parsons in person from Ryan Jarosek, the smooth velvet skin, maybe one day i can give it a shot, but first my real goal is melleri actually

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

No arguing at all. No cyber battle field. lol

I just tried to point out whenever there is a problem in any matters, we should not blame others and look at our-selves first. Anyway this has gone away too far from the original topic.
------------------------------

Referring back to the original of this topic. I would say that if one day you have gather all the knowledges needed, you know what you are doing, you have your resources, you have your time in dedicating to C. parsonii, then why not give it a go.
I just want to point out there is a lot of dedication, determination and also sacrifice if your would like to work with any animals (not only parsonii).
But one of the things I would strongly pointed out is that C. parsonii are not some godly untouchable thing... they are also hardy chameleons if you can meet their specific needs.
When animals died in captivity, I believe there are only 2 major reasons for it;
1./ The person who owns the animal did not do what he is supposed to do.
2./ The person who owns the animal is not doing what he is supposed to do

The main difficulties I find with keeping Parsonii are that they require a much larger cages or free ranges than other chameleons to live happily, if not offered a selection of food they can be quick to go on long hunger strikes, they have low tolerances for temperatures over 80F, and have got huge daily water/humidity requirements. These main points make Parsons more difficult to keep than other more commonly seen species.

 

[stugotz13]

Wow I paid 160 bucks for my Parsons back in 1991 from a local Petstore. Had him (Chester) for about six years. He weighed about a pound if I can recall. Im gonna try to dig up a few pics.

 

[chameleonkev]

Parsons chameleons are basically what I aspire to one day keep. So a few ?'s I have is how big do they actually get and for the people who have them how did you come about finding somewhere to get them from? Then the last question is is anybody breeding them because I know they are illegal to export from madagascar so it seems logical to breed them so that there are more of the chameleons

I just came across this thread, i myself tryed to ask a few questions about parsonii last oct as I was in the market for one back then and a few people gave me the if you don't no how to care for them don't own then treatment but it is very hard to learn about these simply because there isn't anything out there on them. Anyway I now own a parsonii and have since December the 8th and things are going great
They are hard to look after, my thought to be male does have a little mouth problem witch I am clearing up but mouth problems are common so I hear with parsons. Apart from that he is growing very well and is very healthy
In my opinion the best thing you can do when thinking of owning a parsonii is buying it from the right person, you want a good cb strong animal, if you do that your already on a winner, I was very lucky to get a great animal and things are going great, he's gained 30 grams in 4 months witch is very good for a slow developing chameleon