Panther Chameleon Lethargic, not eating, weak, can't climb

[pawpaw22]

I have had my female panther chameleon for 8 months now. I also own 2 other panther chameleons and they all share a 4 foot fluorescent light (full spectrum) and each have their own basking bulbs (100Watt ZooMed that also emits UVA). I have a dripper system that they regularly drink from and it drips 2-3 times a day for half hour. I mist them all daily. Her enclosure is 18"x 18" x 3ft tall and there is plenty of foliage for her to hide in including vines and fake plants. I also have a pathos plant inside of her enclosure. I dust the crickets with repashy calcium plus every other day and give her a hornworm or 2 every couple of weeks as a treat. She has always eaten crickets and has never been a picky eater.

She laid her 6th clutch March 5th. She just kept laying clutch after clutch. The eggs were really white and looked healthy. Her eggs have always been very healthy looking

A few days ago I noticed she wasn't eating as much and she usually has a really healthy appetite after laying her eggs.

Tuesday March 12:
I went to clean her enclosure from top to bottom and I noticed she was acting "funny". She was laying sprawled over a vine and she wasn't holding on with her front arms--They were just dangling off to the side. I also noticed there was a couple of crickets in her enclosure (usually she cleans house) I couldn't take her to the vet for this because it seemed like a ridiculous thing to panic over but something just felt off about it.

Also, last time I took her to the vet, she asked me what the giant lump under her chin was (it was her tongue... I thought to myself "oh boy... are you sure you're a reptile vet?" How did she not know what a chameleon tongue looks like?!?!?) Also, I took my bearded dragon to another reptile vet in town and I had a similar experience... she asked me what the dark patches on it's shoulders were (it's the shoulder pads... every bearded dragon has these) Based on these 2 experiences... I don't really trust the vets in my town because if they have to ask me things as basic as that... how are you supposed to treat my reptile??... Anyway that's a rant for another time. lol

Tuesday March 12 cont'd:
As I proceeded to clean her enclosure, I found a lot more crickets hiding around under the newspaper at the bottom, etc. So this meant she hadn't been eating for like a couple of days. I fed her repti-boost and mixed in some probiotics. I also gave her a dose of antibiotics--Metronidazole (i figured it couldn't hurt if maybe she had an infection or perhaps a parasite) and I completely cleaned her enclosure from top to bottom. Because I took the whole thing apart to clean it, I ended up changing the vines and plants around and so her enclosure now looks different... I also added a new pathos plant for better humidity.

When I placed her back in her home that evening, she started to hang upside down by her tail and back legs. That night she drank a lot of water from her dripper system on her own. I thought this was a good sign. But then I noticed she was still hanging funny... like she's almost drooping from her vines very lazy like.

Wed March 13:
I gave her repti-boost with probiotics in the afternoon again and I added a bit of bee pollen because i read it boosts immunity and apetite. I decided to throw in some crickets to watch if she ate any... she didn't. She basked under the light in the morning but by the evening, I noticed she was very weak and couldn't pull up her body weight using her front arms very well. She did more of the hanging upside down and wasn't using her front arms very much. At one point in the evening, she fell from her vines to the bottom (i think she fell from midway in the enclosure so it's about a 1.5 foot drop. She seemed ok, but continued to act weakened) She ended up sleeping at the bottom of her enclosure on a stick and around 11 when I woke up she was sitting at the very bottom of the enclosure on the newspaper.

Thurs March 14:
I took her out today and gave her a warm bath for like 10mins she turned super pink and looked like she was enjoying it. Today I noticed she hasn't defecated since I cleaned the cage on Tuesday (so 2 days ago and I'm not sure when she defecated before that because I didn't look when I cleaned it). I gave her some mineral oil (0.2mL) today because I know it acts like a laxative and I'm hoping she'll have a poop. Her grip with her front arms is still very weak. I also gave her the antibiotic again (its a once every 48 hr dose) but I forgot to shake it so it may have been just the sugar water stuff at the top... I'm not gonna give her another dose though because I don't want to overdose her... I feel really stupid for forgetting to shake it. I also fed her reptiboost today--She ate it voluntarily and I placed her at the top of the enclosure to bask after. She turned really pink again and turned sideways to bask. I put a towel at the bottom of the enclosure in case she falls again.

Strangely her colours have been relatively normal. She turns very pink occasionally and sometimes goes a little dark but nothing more than her normal colour changes during the day.

I spent all day on Wed doing research and freaking out. I know... I'm turning into one of those chameleonocondrics...

I considered perhaps it could be early warning signs of MBD? But her eggs were very white and I don't think MBD would cause her to stop eating so suddenly, from what I read MBD is a progressive disease that takes months to affect them. She became lethargic and weak and stopped eating very quickly after laying eggs.

I also thought it might be just exhaustion from laying the eggs? but she doesn't seem to be improving yet. Do chameleons go into some sort of burmation like bearded dragons do? Maybe she's acting this way because this was her very last clutch she's planning on laying and her body is just slowing down?

Another option that occurred to me is perhaps she has a leftover egg in her belly and that's why she hasn't defecated yet? But 2 days doesn't seem to be overly long... especially because she hasn't been eating much.

I don't think she's dehydrated because her caste is very plump and her skin is not wrinkly.

The only other thing I can think of is maybe she's overweight? But you'd think that after laying a clutch she'd be lighter and would't have more problems moving around...

Anyway, I'm worried for her but I doubt my "reptile" vet can do anything... I'd love to take a fecal sample to have it tested but its kinda hard since she hasn't gone to the bathroom yet. I'm going to keep an eye on that though.

The only other thing I can think of is that maybe the new environment is stressing her out? It probably wasn't the best time to clean the enclosure but I just wanted to make sure it was sanitary for her.

It probably doesn't help that I've been handling her a lot trying to figure out what's wrong... I'm just concerned that she has a weak grip with her front arms.

Also, could it be her nails are too long and that's why she's having trouble gripping? I know it sounds stupid but I'm trying to think of every option so I don't miss anything. Like okay... here's a really good example. She was just basking sideways on a vine and she started slipping, she couldn't properly grip the vine to pull her body weight back up. Her hands kept gripping and slipping... I had to straighten her back up because she was going to fall... Also when she moves around she drags her trunk along the vines with her belly touching it.

Anyway, sorry for the incredibly long post... I just wanted to give as much detail as I could. I hope someone can give me some advice.

Thanks.

 

[Kate]

Hi and welcome to the forum. Sorry your girl is not very well. Can I ask you to copy, paste and fill in the form, link below. And hopefully someone will be able to help you. With the information given i feel that a vets visit will be in order.

 

[Olimpia]

This is the link Kate meant to link to: https://www.chameleonforums.com/how-ask-help-66/

Welcome to the forum. Thank you for giving us all the info you provided, but please fill out the remaining details on the form and it may shed a little light on what is going on. At this point it could be any number of things so hopefully seeing a little more info about her and her environment might help narrow it down. Also a photo of her might also help.

In a case like this I would tell you to go to a vet, but I guess it's hard if you don't have anyone competent in your town. Is there any way you could drive out an hour or two to a different exotic vet? It might be the only thing that makes a difference in her condition right now.

 

[pawpaw22]

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon – Panther Chameleon, Ambilobe, female, 1.5 years old
I’ve had it for 8 months.
Handling – I don’t handle her very often at all. I only pick her up to move her to a dirt bin. Lately, I’ve been handling her about 4 times a day because she is sick and I’ve fed and bathed her. I’ve also had to pick her up when she falls in her enclosure. So it’s been a lot more handling recently. She hasn’t been aggressive towards me when I handle her though.
Feeding – I normally feed her crickets, I try to feed her about 10 a day but sometimes more fall in when I’m feeding her. I feed her once a day. She eats the crickets throughout the day. I don’t gut-load my feeders, I usually give them potato, sometimes I give the crickets dog biscuits that I soak first.
Supplements – I dust my crickets every other day with repashy calcium plus.
Watering – I have a drip system that is on for 20 mins about 3 times a day (60 mins total). She often climbs up and drinks directly from it. I mist her 2 times a day, sometimes more. Lately I’ve been a bit distracted and I haven’t misted as much as I should. She usually runs to the bottom of the enclosure when I start misting. I try not to spray her but she still hates it.
Fecal Description – I can’t comment because I cleaned the enclosure and didn’t look at it carefully enough to remember it. She hasn’t had any droppings since I cleaned it. She hasn’t been tested for parasites but I have her on an antibiotic that treats multiple things at the moment just in case. Until I can get a fecal sample to take to the vet.
History – She’s been really healthy up until now. As I stated above, her eggs were very healthy and she laid a clutch less than a week before she started acting funny.

Cage Info:
Cage Type – Screen cage. 18” x 18” x 36”. Repti-breeze from zoomed.
Lighting – ZooMed 100Watt basking bulb. And Fluorescent tube containing T8 lights, full spectrum. I keep the lights on for 13 hours a day and off for 11.
Temperature – The coldest the house gets is 71 at night. What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
Humidity – The lowest the house humidity goes is 10%. What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
Plants – Using both live and fake plants. I’m using a pathos for live plant. I recently cleaned and ended up changing the arrangement of the plants in her enclosure. That’s when she started hanging upside down.
Placement – Cage is against a wall. Not near any fans or air vents or anything like that. It's located near the front door so I don't pass by it too much. Top of cage is 55 inches high.
Location - Where are you geographically located? Canada… don’t see how this has anything to do with it. It’s winter outside but house stays warm.

Current Problem – She is acting lethargic, doesn’t hold on to vines with both of her hands when she’s sitting there, sleeps and hangs upside down frequently, she slips and fell once because she doesn’t have the strength in her front arms to grip things as well as she used to. She drags her torso along and is having trouble lifting her body weight to climb up. She also isn’t eating her crickets. I am feeding her repti-boost and adding a pinch of probiotics and a pinch of bee pollen to it--She seems to lick it voluntarily. I offered her a molted superworm (to see if it was variety she needed but she just stared at it and didn’t eat it for 10 mins).

I'll have to fill out the rest of the temp and humidity info when I measure it tomorrow because the lights are off at the moment. I'll post pics tomorrow too since she's sleeping right now.

 

[carol5208]

this might sound like a stupid question but are your "florescent lights" UVB lights? If not, then there is your problem. Also you did not list your basking temp or humidity levels other than 10% 10% is very low.. edit: from what I just read, some full spectrum lights provide uva and uvb, but the uvb may not be enough. You need atleast a 5.0 for adequate uvb rays for chameleons. A lack of uvb or not enough can cause mbd. Your cham could be in the early stages of it. Not saying she is, but it is a possibility. How long have you had the other chameleons?

 

[ChameleonMom]

Just a quick note: I had a female panther that had a kidney infection and she became so weak that her legs couldn't support her and she leaned and leaned until she too was hanging upside down. This hanging is due to weakness, not because you changed her cage around. Obviously a trip to the vet is in order. Where in Canada are you located? Maybe we can find you a better vet - can you and are you willing to travel a moderate distance?

 

[ChameleonMom]

I am thinking....you've had this girl FOR 8 months or she IS 8 months?? That is a lot of clutches to have in quick succession. I am wondering if laying her last clutch has just exhausted her beyond the ability to eat, and of course she needs it more than ever now. Is it possible you can mash up some crickets with some Pedialyte? (There is a recipe for bug juice here somewhere!) and then administer it to her via syringe? Force feeding her this may go far in helping her get some strength back in her limbs until you can get her to a vet.

 

[carol5208]

I am thinking....you've had this girl FOR 8 months or she IS 8 months?? That is a lot of clutches to have in quick succession. I am wondering if laying her last clutch has just exhausted her beyond the ability to eat, and of course she needs it more than ever now. Is it possible you can mash up some crickets with some Pedialyte? (There is a recipe for bug juice here somewhere!) and then administer it to her via syringe? Force feeding her this may go far in helping her get some strength back in her limbs until you can get her to a vet.

he said she is 1 1/2 yrs old and he has had her for 8 months.

 

[EKEKO]

Did anybody pick up on the cricket gutload? I am surprised she has laid so many successful clutches. You need to gutload your feeders, remember we all are what we eat. **Dog Biscuits?? That's animal protein...which means uric acid which can lead to Gout...Try this https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/ This member has taken the time to analyze what is good and bad for chameleons when it comes to nutrients.

Try changing your crickets diet and you might see a drastic change.

 

[pawpaw22]

I have my other chameleons under the same type of fluorescent light and they haven't had any problems which leads me to think it's not the lighting. I've had other chameleons under it even longer than i've had her with no problems. Also, I have only done the dog biscuit thing in the past month and it was probably a total of like 6 times. But thanks for telling me! I will definitely never do that again!! I had no idea.

Regarding the humidity and temp, the numbers i stated are when the lights are off (so those are the absolute lowest that they every get). I have to measure the humidity and temperature levels in the morning, when the lights are on, to give a accurate reading and to determine how humid the enclosure gets after misting and throughout the day. So I will post these numbers as soon as I can. I measured them when I first set up my enclosure but i figure I should check again in case something has changed. Especially since I just re-did the enclosure.

Could it be possible that laying so many clutches successively caused her to put all of her calcium in the eggs taking it away from what her body requires to keep her healthy? Would that cause a mild form of MBD and explain all the weakness and lack of eating? In this case should i give her calcium powder? I've been afraid to do that because I don't want to give her too much calcium and make her sick... I know how that can cause problems in itself. If I do try giving her calcium powder, how much? and what kind? I have read all sorts of things about D3 and i'm totally confused.

Thanks so much for all your guys' input.

 

[Lathelia]

I'm not sure if calcium could be part of the problem, but I think adding plain calcium (no D3!) would be benaficial. I would dust crickets with calcium on days you don't use repashy calcium plus.
When was the last time you changed fluorescend light?

 

[Anfsurfer]

I have my other chameleons under the same type of fluorescent light and they haven't had any problems which leads me to think it's not the lighting. I've had other chameleons under it even longer than i've had her with no problems.

This response concerns me. "Full Spectrum" does not mean it emits UVB. You have to have lighting that emits the correct amount of UVB for the specific animal. These bulbs which emit UVB also need to be replaced approximately every 6 months because the amount of UVB given off by the bulbs decreases over time and at that point is no longer substantial enough for the animal.

 

[ChameleonMom]

Back in December my female developed a clutch of eggs that, despite religious supplementing, took so much out of her that she pulled calcium from her right front foot. It became swollen and elongated and when it was x-rayed, had less bone density than the rest of her body. She had to have the eggs surgically removed and then was spayed so she won't lay again but in her recovery I included 0.1cc's of liquid calcium every day for 2 weeks, then cut back to 2x a week. Three months after the fact she is still getting the liquid cal twice a week as she seems to be slow in her recovery. If your girl isn't eating I would think powder may be hard to get into her but I would recommend administering the liquid cal via syringe to help her along. It can't hurt at this point.

 

[lancaster0861]

That is what i am wondering also. You said that you have had your other chameleons under these lights and also have had other chameleons under them for even longer if she is eight months old that would make those lights pretty old. This means that more than likely the lights aren't putting out much uvb if any at this point. Also, a girl who has laid that many clutches of eggs will seriously be famished and need lots of calcium with a good diet. You said you don't gut load your feeders. This may be hurting your girl because every chameleon i feel needs a good gut load and pregnant females need an even more quality gut load, on that a female who has laid as many clutches as yours is gonna need a even better diet and your not providing much at all for her as far as gut load. I would def look into your gut load and into the lighting so she can break down all that valuable nutrition. She is probably in the early stages of mbd and is having a hard time eating, drinking, moving, supporting her weight and even just supporting her own weight is becoming difficult from lack of nutrients. im happy you are catching this in what seems to be the early stages of what it is. Well hopefully you have caught it early. Good luck with your baby!

 

[pawpaw22]

The temp gradient is: 74.5 F bottom of cage and 116 F in warmest basking spot.

I am pretty sure my humidity guage is broken so I can't figure out those numbers till i buy a new one. I put the guage in a closed tupperware bin and put a repti-fogger on it and it still wont go up past 15% humidity... which seems really odd because the entire thing was so foggy it was turning into water droplets on the side... so i'll have to replace that before I can get a proper measurement.

Other than that, I have good news for today. She climbed up on her own and went to bask under the fluorescent lights which was awesome! I fed her a bit of calcium today and it seemed to perk her up a bit. I'll keep you guys posted on how she does.

I also just replaced my fluorescent lights. So hopefully that helps too.

we'll see how she's doing tomorrow.

 

[ChameleonMom]

Holy sh*t! 116F in the highest basking spot? That is extremely, extremely hot even if your Cham isn't spending a lot of time there! Lower it!!! Great that she seems to have picked up but try to get a substantial amount of food in her if you can. Keep us posted.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Do your florescent lights have UVB specifically? What brand of light is it? If you didn't get them from a pet store then they do not have UVB, and even many lights at pet stores still do not have it. I still don't see that question answered yet. And as chameleonmom said, that is way too hot!

 

[Anfsurfer]

116??? Wow. Panther Cham basking temps are 85-95. That's 21 degrees over the hottest you would ever want it.

 

[lancaster0861]

Is it safe to say that those hot temps are what is playing a big role in her laying so many times?

 

[pssh]

The hot temps AND the large amount of food was probably what made her lay so many clutches in such a short amount of time.

Like others have asked, what brand is the light and are you sure it has UVB?

Right now, I would suggest calling all the vets you can to ask if they know anything about chameleons/reptiles, even if the vets are an hour or two away. A good vet is going to be your best bet right now.

Did you say that she hasn't been eating right since she laid her eggs or shortly after? It is very possible that she didn't lay all of them and it is now beginning to affect her (in which case, she will need a vet ASAP or she could very well die.) I have heard of females eating alright for a few days (or even a week or two) and then suddenly their health declines because they had eggs still in them.