Overfed Baby chams destined for MBD?

[Chameleons Northwest]

Here is an old thread (linked below) that I found to be very interesting and helpful. Particularly the comments by Eric Adrignola. One can see in reading his post in this thread that it is possible for an owner to purchase a cham that was overfed and grew at such a fast pace as a baby that it was destined for MBD. He writes- "I have bought 4 females from a particualr breeder over the years. EVERY one has come down wiht MBD of some form. Mushy casques, broken ribs, weakness, etc. Nothing severe - just that they all had it. I had some that were raised in full sun from day one. I kept them under new reptisuns, gave them some repcal and minerall 0, and even gave them sun a few times a week. They got the worst MBD I'd ever seen. one died from it." Even when the new, highly experienced owner provided proper lighting (including sun several times a week) and proper nutrition the juveniles suffered from classic MBD. Also brings up the possibility that too-fast growth may be the reason for the HIGH PREVALENCE of MBD within the captive bred veiled cham population. He really knows his stuff and his comments make a lot of sense.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/predator-his-story-682/

With all of us raising yungins right now, I thought this a very relevant topic.

 

[davider]

Interesting post, thanks.

 

[kinyonga]

I have never grown my hatchlings fast. I haven't had a case of MBD for years except for one hatchling I got from someone else at a couple of months of age. I don't know if that chameleon's problem was the result of her parental background or that she didn't sit in the UVB as much as she should have or both. I usually "make" them sit in the UVB by using long low cages for the first three months...with this one, I didn't...I used a tall cage.

Even when I first started keeping them, I never grew my hatchlings fast but I had the odd case of MBD. I used different supplements back then, gutloaded my insects differently and used different UVB lights. I think that all of these things played a part in it...but I think there were other things (I have a theory or two) that played a part too.

One other "odd" thing is that some of the hatchlings I got from other people that I raised just the same as my own didn't live as long as my own did...perhaps parental care plays a part?

 

[Cainschams]

Thanks Gesang. I find this to be very relevant and also very informing. I havent been letting my babies eat all they want. Ive been letting them eat what they can in a minute the first feeding and a few on the second. I look at it as they need to get full but not gorge themselves. Also letting them gorge themselves I would think to be a waste of some feeders since it wouldnt all be digested. This has been working for me. My 2 month olds seem to be doing great.

 

[spatulars]

What is the rule of thumb for feeding baby chams?

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

What is the rule of thumb for feeding baby chams?

Here are some more threads on this topic:

https://www.chameleonforums.com/define-grown-fast-861/

https://www.chameleonforums.com/how-much-food-1021/

This thread actually answers your questions: In this thread He said he feeds babies as much as they'll eat once a day sometimes twice a day:https://www.chameleonforums.com/best-type-chameleon-725/

The idea is not to let food free roam in the enclosure all day long.

 

[dodolah]

It's funny that this post come out just the day after I am contemplating this theory.
I believe obesity in chameleon can indirectly causes MBD.
That's why i am firm in not overfeeding baby chameleons.

Some has shrugs the idea.

Yesterday, Kinyonga pointed out a very nice article:
Decreased bioavailability of vitamin D in obesity.

Wortsman J, Matsuoka LY, Chen TC, Lu Z, Holick MF.

Southern Illinois University School of Medicine, Springfield, USA.

BACKGROUND: Obesity is associated with vitamin D insufficiency and secondary hyperparathyroidism. OBJECTIVE: This study assessed whether obesity alters the cutaneous production of vitamin D(3) (cholecalciferol) or the intestinal absorption of vitamin D(2) (ergocalciferol).

DESIGN: Healthy, white, obese [body mass index (BMI; in kg/m(2)) > or = 30] and matched lean control subjects (BMI </= 25) received either whole-body ultraviolet radiation or a pharmacologic dose of vitamin D(2) orally. RESULTS: Obese subjects had significantly lower basal 25-hydroxyvitamin D concentrations and higher parathyroid hormone concentrations than did age-matched control subjects. Evaluation of blood vitamin D(3) concentrations 24 h after whole-body irradiation showed that the incremental increase in vitamin D(3) was 57% lower in obese than in nonobese subjects.

The content of the vitamin D(3) precursor 7-dehydrocholesterol in the skin of obese and nonobese subjects did not differ significantly between groups nor did its conversion to previtamin D(3) after irradiation in vitro. The obese and nonobese subjects received an oral dose of 50000 IU (1.25 mg) vitamin D(2). BMI was inversely correlated with serum vitamin D(3) concentrations after irradiation (r = -0.55, P: = 0.003) and with peak serum vitamin D(2) concentrations after vitamin D(2) intake (r = -0.56, P: = 0.007).

CONCLUSIONS: Obesity-associated vitamin D insufficiency is likely due to the decreased bioavailability of vitamin D(3) from cutaneous and dietary sources because of its deposition in body fat compartments.

Although those are the findings for human, knowing that D3 is a fat soluble vitamin, I believe the result can also be related to reptile (chameleon in general).

and here is an excerpt from Dr. Wheelock during our email conversation about the article and when I asked if my conclusion seems to hasty.
I hope this be benefit everybody:

I agree with you that this is certainly part of the problem. People forget though that the parathyroid does many complex jobs in the body and there is an overlap of functions. If the metabolism of an obese animal disrupts normal levels, peak performance in turning on or off the negative feedback loop.

My pet theory is that owners grow their chams too fast in the first year (people like to feed chams). The body is then always trying to catch up. I liken it hip dysplasia in dogs. There is certainly a hereditary component, but most often owners give too much food and the muscles grow proportionately faster than the bones causing malformation of the hips.

 

[Eric Adrignola]

I've seen some grown fast that were flawless - I got them from Valerie Shambo. They were just about as big for their age as the "bad" one sI had in the past from another breeder.

I've reached a semi-conclusion: fast growth is NOT going to make them have mbd. it just makes them MUCH MUCH more vulnerabel to it. In the case of the ones I had with MBD, I think the husbandry of the breeders was questionable. The breeders motivations were to sell animals as fast as possible, and they were not very knowledgeable.

I think they were simply malnourished and their parents were equally poorly cared for. The ultra-fast growth was more a catalyst, and the poor care they had was also at fault. Could be genetics as well.

That said, fast growth means higher calcium and D3 demand. There is a correlation between growth rate and MBD, I'm sure, but I do not believe it's a 100% thing like I used to.

When I got a really solid, fast growing baby from Valerie, which showed no signs of squishy bones (despite being HUGE for her age), I had to consider that growth was nto the sole reason for MBD.

 

[dodolah]

yes.
With the inexact science of supplementing, overfeeding makes it extremely harder to measure babies' needs of vit, calcium, and D3 when we overfeed them.