Over Hydration

[Highway61]

This is something I was not aware of until Petr brought it to my attention. And that is, my cham's urates have always look white to me but that's a sign of consuming too much water. I took some shots of his urates after they've long dried. Looks white to me:

And here's my Jack. I can't see any glaring health issues but if there are, please point them out.

 

[Beman]

My boys have white urates as well. If it is indeed over hydration then my first look would be at how we hydrate. I fog at night for 4-5 hours and I mist morning and in the evening although I rarely have ever seen either of mine drink.. Makes me wonder about the fogging then if as @PetNcs says that all white urates are a sign of over hydration.

So I would like to know some real information on this as well.

 

[Highway61]

I mist every morning for about 3-4 minutes. This about how long it takes to get Jack stimulated enough to drink so I usually see him drink about every other day. I have no fogger or humidifier.

 

[DocZ]

I have trouble believing that you’re going to over hydrate your chameleon. Sufficient hydration is essential for kidney function. The kidneys are main organ regulating serum levels of all of the minerals and vitamins Through excretion and retention, and it requires water for proper filtration.

he mentions “In an organism, too much water is same dangerous as not enough water. The osmotic pressure tears the cells and ruptures appear all around the body causing damage and opening gates for infections, abscesses and sunsequent death”.

this seems very unlikely. Over hydration leads to hyponatremia (low Serum sodium) This occurs as sodium follows excess water into the cells to maintain osmotic balance. It can cause swelling in the brain leading to What looks like intoxication and can lead to seizures. Single celled organisms (bacteria, etc) may burst under osmotic pressure

He also mentions:
“What about water?
The same picture. There is
Almost never ever in the wild a water stream.
So, they can drink licking tiny droplets (if at all).
They can not over drink. There is not enough water to do so.
Never ever for many species.
Or only occasionally, for some.
If you give them a stream of water running across their mouth tip and even covering nostrils,
they reflexively swallow
and swallow
and swallow
and swallow
and over-hydrate.
They take much more water than necessary.
And they get health problems.”

this I can see as possibly unnecessary. You probably don’t need to douse them with water over and over through the day. I support his recommendations of naturalistic hydration. Fogging at night to increase hydration. I do this. I also run the mister 3 times, once during the “sunrise” as my light come on, once late in the evening and once overnight as the fogger fires up. In addition, I have a dripper that runs for 5 minutes at a time about 4 times during the afternoon as well

my chameleon comes up from his sleeping spot Where he gets fog at night during “sunrise”. He sits directly beneath a mist king nozzle, gets sprayed for about a minute, then slides over to his branch that stays out of the spray. Most of the time he does not use the dripper water, but I want it available in case he decides he’s thirsty. There’s no doubt they experience thirst and will seek out water when they want it

 

[Beman]

I have trouble believing that you’re going to over hydrate your chameleon. Sufficient hydration is essential for kidney function. The kidneys are main organ regulating serum levels of all of the minerals and vitamins Through excretion and retention, and it requires water for proper filtration.

he mentions “In an organism, too much water is same dangerous as not enough water. The osmotic pressure tears the cells and ruptures appear all around the body causing damage and opening gates for infections, abscesses and sunsequent death”.

this seems very unlikely. Over hydration leads to hyponatremia (low Serum sodium) This occurs as sodium follows excess water into the cells to maintain osmotic balance. It can cause swelling in the brain leading to What looks like intoxication and can lead to seizures. Single celled organisms (bacteria, etc) may burst under osmotic pressure

He also mentions:
“What about water?
The same picture. There is
Almost never ever in the wild a water stream.
So, they can drink licking tiny droplets (if at all).
They can not over drink. There is not enough water to do so.
Never ever for many species.
Or only occasionally, for some.
If you give them a stream of water running across their mouth tip and even covering nostrils,
they reflexively swallow
and swallow
and swallow
and swallow
and over-hydrate.
They take much more water than necessary.
And they get health problems.”

this I can see as possibly unnecessary. You probably don’t need to douse them with water over and over through the day. I support his recommendations of naturalistic hydration. Fogging at night to increase hydration. I do this. I also run the mister 3 times, once during the “sunrise” as my light come on, once late in the evening and once overnight as the fogger fires up. In addition, I have a dripper that runs for 5 minutes at a time about 4 times during the afternoon as well

my chameleon comes up from his sleeping spot Where he gets fog at night during “sunrise”. He sits directly beneath a mist king nozzle, gets sprayed for about a minute, then slides over to his branch that stays out of the spray. Most of the time he does not use the dripper water, but I want it available in case he decides he’s thirsty. There’s no doubt they experience thirst and will seek out water when they want it

Right so you basically hydrate the way I do. This is why I am thrown by the all white urate meaning they are over hydrated. I follow to a T the natural hydration method. Only misting prior to basking light kicking on and in the evening when the cage has cooled down and then fogging at night when temps are below 68 degrees.

My boy has always had pure white urates since doing this method. I rarely see him drink so I know the hydration is due to the fogging. So this is where I get confused. How then does a pure white indicate over hydration? Where is the line then? Why is fogging advised if a pure white urate is then produced?

I have a hard time when things are not fully explained and something is just tossed out there that it is bad.

 

[jamest0o0]

This is a well known fact, chameleons receive no water in nature and we are shortening their lifespans by 50-60 years by hydrating them. It is a myth water is good for you, that is more American propaganda. The fogging method was just to ween you all off of water. First it was rain, then mist, then fog, now nothing. You can't have your chameleons quitting water cold turkey because they're not turkeys.

Sorry can't help myself

 

[Beman]

This is a well known fact, chameleons receive no water in nature and we are shortening their lifespans by 50-60 years by hydrating them. It is a myth water is good for you, that is more American propaganda. The fogging method was just to ween you all off of water. First it was rain, then mist, then fog, now nothing. You can't have your chameleons quitting water cold turkey because they're not turkeys.

Sorry can't help myself

I just want specifics regarding the white urate meaning over hydration. I hate it when I do not have full details and honestly the only thing that could cause the white urate is the fact that I fog so like what the heck.

Then there is the fact that I was reading in another forum about how fogging is beneficial when it comes to sperm plugs and cloaca issues. That chams that are hydrated this way do not have the same hemipenes issues or prolapse issues due to proper hydration.... So when I read that I thought well that is wonderful then because Beman at 2 years old has never had any issues that way.

Then we get the boom of an all white urate being over hydration. So like I am a bit on the confused side since fogging is what we are told to do.

 

[PetNcs]

IMH

This is something I was not aware of until Petr brought it to my attention. And that is, my cham's urates have always look white to me but that's a sign of consuming too much water. I took some shots of his urates after they've long dried. Looks white to me:

View attachment 275214
View attachment 275215

And here's my Jack. I can't see any glaring health issues but if there are, please point them out.

View attachment 275216

IMHO These rates are evidently a sign of overhydration for two reasons
first they are completely white and
second they are amorphous.
The healthy urates are always in a form of a cylinder and are solid not like these

there is lots of excess water in the organism and it causes the enzymes and other metabolixally kiquids are less
Comcentrated, they do not wirk properly,
Digestion is not wfficient,

check the poop as well

i guess it will be brownish greyish in color, slughish and stinky

 

[jamest0o0]

I just want specifics regarding the white urate meaning over hydration. I hate it when I do not have full details and honestly the only thing that could cause the white urate is the fact that I fog so like what the heck.

Then there is the fact that I was reading in another forum about how fogging is beneficial when it comes to sperm plugs and cloaca issues. That chams that are hydrated this way do not have the same hemipenes issues or prolapse issues due to proper hydration.... So when I read that I thought well that is wonderful then because Beman at 2 years old has never had any issues that way.

Then we get the boom of an all white urate being over hydration. So like I am a bit on the confused side since fogging is what we are told to do.

Agreed. Not to get too much into fogging, but one thing to remember is most of us that we'rent or still aren't fogging(but misting a lot) have had white urates, no prolapses, etc. I live in a high humidity area so my chameleon probably gets the same as he would from fogging outside, but he also gets about an hour from the hose on mist a day and he still drinks/bathes. During winter he gets showers. I believe it's just overall hydration that is important, whether you fog heavy or give them a heavy rain every day. One thing with veileds too, is we see people that have them for 5+ years that never had good care yet they still chug along. They're a damn resilient species, panthers as well.

 

[PetNcs]

I just want specifics regarding the white urate meaning over hydration. I hate it when I do not have full details and honestly the only thing that could cause the white urate is the fact that I fog so like what the heck.

Then there is the fact that I was reading in another forum about how fogging is beneficial when it comes to sperm plugs and cloaca issues. That chams that are hydrated this way do not have the same hemipenes issues or prolapse issues due to proper hydration.... So when I read that I thought well that is wonderful then because Beman at 2 years old has never had any issues that way.

Then we get the boom of an all white urate being over hydration. So like I am a bit on the confused side since fogging is what we are told to do.

Based on my field research, well hydrated animals produce urates with 15-50 per cent of orange crystalline part.
I have analyzed poop of perfectly hydrated for healthy wild animals producing such urates.
Fogging is absolitely great for all the issues you daid, and as such it is not a panacea but again only a mechanism that you need to adjust!
Can you overfog? Obviously YES!
I can gladly help you to adjust.

look how healthy perfectly hydated urates look in rhe wild from T.j.xantholophus from Chogoria

 

[Beman]

Based on my field research, well hydrated animals produce urates with 15-50 per cent of orange crystalline part.
I have analyzed poop of perfectly hydrated for healthy wild animals producing such urates.
Fogging is absolitely great for all the issues you daid, and as such it is not a panacea but again only a mechanism that you need to adjust!
Can you overfog? Obviously YES!
I can gladly help you to adjust.

look how healthy perfectly hydated urates look in rhe wild from T.j.xantholophus from Chogoria

So then what would be your recommendation on fogging length at night?

 

[PetNcs]

Agreed. Not to get too much into fogging, but one thing to remember is most of us that we'rent or still aren't fogging(but misting a lot) have had white urates, no prolapses, etc. I live in a high humidity area so my chameleon probably gets the same as he would from fogging outside, but he also gets about an hour from the hose on mist a day and he still drinks/bathes. During winter he gets showers. I believe it's just overall hydration that is important, whether you fog heavy or give them a heavy rain every day. One thing with veileds too, is we see people that have them for 5+ years that never had good care yet they still chug along. They're a damn resilient species, panthers as well.

Intry to explain all the time that high humidity and fog is not the same
low humidity desiccates
High humidity keeps the hydragion level at same
Fog hydrates

i will ounlish my findings soon, they are in print already

 

[PetNcs]

So then what would be your recommendation on fogging length at night?

nothing
I can not say how
Many hours you should fog

YOJ NEED TO ADJUST

IT IS NOT A MACHINE ITNIS A LIVING ENVIRONMENT, ENTITIES, ORGANISMS

So, you need to adjust

i fog differently even in one room as ai have different cages!

 

[DocZ]

IMH

IMHO These rates are evidently a sign of overhydration for two reasons
first they are completely white and
second they are amorphous.
The healthy urates are always in a form of a cylinder and are solid not like these

there is lots of excess water in the organism and it causes the enzymes and other metabolixally kiquids are less
Comcentrated, they do not wirk properly,
Digestion is not wfficient,

check the poop as well

i guess it will be brownish greyish in color, slughish and stinky

There’s certainly going to be more water in the digestive tract, but an animal with working kidneys is going filter out excess water. The animal would then not be required to reflux water back into the gut to further concentrate their urates

a healthy animal is going to be able to avoid over hydration. Further, in the wild, these animals likely experience some amount of dehydration and stress during certain times of the year which isn’t necessary to recreate

can you give them too much, maybe, but it would be much safer than too little I would think

 

[PetNcs]

Then we get the boom of an all white urate being over hydration. So like I am a bit on the confused side since fogging is what we are told to do.

ask yourself who was it to introduce the policy of white urates? Or legend or myth or shit.
It were VETs that have never ever seen a wild animal and they did not do rigorous studies on that. Just ised their formal authkrity. And then it was oarrottwd for decades.

i disxussed this matter many times with Bill Strand who onows a lot about the step by step development in jerpetoculture of chameleons and if I Can cite him, he explained that it is like a swing. At the beginning, the most problematic issue was how to hydrate chameleons properly as
Dehydration was a
Major issue.
so, everyone went hudration until we have not noticed that we overdo.
Then an opinionated idiot from Easyer Ejrope comes and start to shout on the well established community that it does wrong. Of course there is reaistance as in almosg all revolutionary ideas I come with.
reaistance
Hate
Blocking me
Calling me names
Wishing me death while crossing Highway
Then some
People start listening and step by step the community opens...
And the. Some issues become standard forgetting how much blood was wasted fie nothing at the beginning
LOL

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

TMK, chameleons don't absorb much—if any—moisture through their skin; about the same as humans do for moisturizing, and that's about it. If any hyperhydration were to occur, it would have to be via drinking.

Unless forced, I'm skeptable [sic].

 

[DocZ]

“
Then an opinionated idiot from Easyer Ejrope comes and start to shout on the well established community that it does wrong. Of course there is reaistance as in almosg all revolutionary ideas I come with.
reaistance
Hate
Blocking me
Calling me names
Wishing me death while crossing Highway
Then some
People start listening and step by step the community opens...
And the. Some issues become standard forgetting how much blood was wasted fie nothing at the beginning
LOL”

where is this coming from?

 

[PetNcs]

There’s certainly going to be more water in the digestive tract, but an animal with working kidneys is going filter out excess water. The animal would then not be required to reflux water back into the gut to further concentrate their urates

a healthy animal is going to be able to avoid over hydration. Further, in the wild, these animals likely experience some amount of dehydration and stress during certain times of the year which isn’t necessary to recreate

can you give them too much, maybe, but it would be much safer than too little I would think

I take the liberty to slightly and respectfully disagree.
The point is, in many species, there is no evilutionary reason to prevent overhydration, because there is almost never too
Much water in The environment.

animals can only regullate what they have been exposed to evolutionarily. They can not be lrepared on someting in advance. This is how evolution works. Exposure is the name if the game
Not wisdom of adaptability.

this is why Veileds and Mellers overhydrate (and Calumma brevicorne does not)
Thisnis why montanes kill themselves by overbasking (and panthers do not)
Thisnis why savannah species overfeed terribly (and parsons do not)
All in caltivity,
Never in The wild

they have not learned to regulate in their evolution

 

[DocZ]

I sate to slightly disagree.
The point is, in many soecies, there is no evilutionary reason to prevent iverhydration, because there is almost never too
Much water in The environment.
animals can onlu regullate what they have been expoaed to evolutionarily.

this is why Veileds and Mellers overhydrate (and Calumma brevicorne does not)
Thisnis why montanes kill themselves by overbasking (and panthers do not)
Thisnis why savannah species overfeed terribly (and parsons do not)
All in caltivity,
Never in The wild

they have not learned to regulate in their evolution

I see your point on the animals not Always properly interpreting and avoiding dangerous stimuli. But if you limit exposure to dangerous levels within the enclosure there’s less risk. For example, not allowing excessive levels of UVI anywhere within the cage avoids UVI overexposure, raising heat lamps so that too high of heat Is not accessible avoids burns, You could theoretically over hydrate with fog at night or with misting during the day, but the Renal physiology of the animal will filter out excess water.

In some cases however we know they do self-regulate. Dr Ferguson Showed Panthers adjusted their exposure to UVB to regulate vitamin D3
https://www.researchgate.net/public...to_UV_Depending_on_Dietary_Vitamin_D-3_Status

 

[JoXie411]

“
Then an opinionated idiot from Easyer Ejrope comes and start to shout on the well established community that it does wrong. Of course there is reaistance as in almosg all revolutionary ideas I come with.
reaistance
Hate
Blocking me
Calling me names
Wishing me death while crossing Highway
Then some
People start listening and step by step the community opens...
And the. Some issues become standard forgetting how much blood was wasted fie nothing at the beginning
LOL”

where is this coming from?

Entitlement