Oustalet x Panther Hybrids just started hatching! This is Neo and his lil brother Snoop (born 4/20/2020)
- Thread starter Punch
- Start date
JoXie411
Chameleon Enthusiast
I remember reading about a cross in the past, could be wrong. I think the hatchlings started to died randomly at 6 months? I need to look it up
Punch
New Member
Backwater reptiles supposedly bred their female Oustalet with a male Panther. Aside from the documentation provided buy one customer (who’s hybrid did Unfortunately die around 6mo), I saw no other records. The first scientifically documented hybrid (with DNA testing) shows an adult with a picture provided.
On that note; there was no necropsy to determine cause of death, and as chameleon enthusiasts I feel like we see “died of random cause” all too often
On that note; there was no necropsy to determine cause of death, and as chameleon enthusiasts I feel like we see “died of random cause” all too often
cyberlocc
Chameleon Enthusiast
Ya they can be fertile. That flipper Craig Wyatt, use to breed them.
IDK, they end up as slightly bigger panthers, with a tad more color than a O, but defiantly not panther levels of color. Pretty much Grey Panthers, with some slight colors.
Not something I would do, personally. These guys will never ever come in contact in the wild, Os are from the spiny forest in Southwest Madagascar, Panthers are from the Tropical areas of the North and Humid Forests of the East. I think Craig got some to survive for a time, but I dont think they lived normal healthy lives, could be wrong though.
I think the idea from BWR, and Craig, was to create a Hardier, Larger Panther, or a Colorful O, which ever way you want to look at it.
You can search Panther Hybrid, or Oustalet x Panther, and find threads. This is has been done quite alot, I have never heard of one living past a year, not saying it is not possible though.
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Motherlode Chameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
It has happened before. I live near Backwater Reptiles and wish I got to have the opportunity to have a look and photograph their hatched clutch of Furcfer pardalis/oustaleti babies. I got to have a look at there Yellow Lip Calumma parsonii parsonii babies though.
Just a note. These two species share the same habitat. Furcifer ostaleti is commonly found along the west cost of Madagascar as far north from Ambanja all the way to the north of Diego Suarez.
Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
Just a note. These two species share the same habitat. Furcifer ostaleti is commonly found along the west cost of Madagascar as far north from Ambanja all the way to the north of Diego Suarez.
Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
cyberlocc
Chameleon Enthusiast
They cross in some spots, but even then occupy different bioclimates.
They cross, near the northwest somewhat, however while Os prefer dry Arid climates, and can be found in semi Tropical, Panthers occupy Semi Tropical and can be found in Rainforests of the east. They converge slightly, in the north like you said, but No panthers live in the West, where most Os are found, and vice versa for the East. Like I had prior said.
I would bet money, that you would be very hardpressed to get a photo of an O and a Panther together, in the same location of Madagascar, near, but not in the same spot.
EOL data for both.
O's
Panthers.
And those Os are very likely introduced, as their numbers are much lower there, then they are in the south and west. Thats like saying that Panthers share habitat with Parsons, they slightly do, you can maybe find few in Masoala or Andasibe, but that doesn't make Panthers Montanes (I already got crucified for even suggesting that hahahaha) same applies here.
I know who to ask,
@PetNcs have you ever seen an Oustaleti and a Panther near each other in the Wild? Same Tree, a Few Trees apart? Close enough to get both in a Picture? In the same biotope?
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Motherlode Chameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
The first CIN video of Madagascar has plenty of video footage Furcifer pardalis and oustaleti in the same habitat in Ambanja and Diego Suarez. They are found on Mango Tree's and Lantana Plants. That occurrence actually was common place in the video. Ardi and the CIN team makes remarks that the Furcifer oustaleti in Ambanja are unlike any other on the island and compared to the Furcifer oustaleti in Diego Suarez. The Ambanja Furcifer oustaleti I recall are reddish and have a rounded casque compare to the browner Furcifer oustaleti on other parts of the island. There has been talk for a long time that Furcifer oustalti as a species that is known today is actually a complex of many species. This is similar to Calumma parsonii parsonii living in the same rainforests as smaller Calumma brevicorne or nasutum complexes.
You should watch the first CIN Chameleons of Madagascar video. The one that is mostly about Furcifer pardalis. It think it is called "Madagascar a Land Like No Other".
Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
cyberlocc
Chameleon Enthusiast
I will check that out, and ya I have red that the northern Os tend to have Redish highlights, compared to the more Arid ones of the south.
I know there has been books that suggested, they hybridized in the wild, but never seen any actual proof, outside of maybe a photo shopped O with a stripe. I am not saying it was photoshopped, just that it could be hahaha.
Im trying to look back now, and see if Craigs or Backwaters survived, I dont think they did if I remember right, but that was so long ago. I think they survived, to 6 months or so, but not to adult hood. There is some posts from members that got some, and they passed but I am looking for a survivor.
cyberlocc
Chameleon Enthusiast
If anyone is curious what it could look like, this was a BWRs baby that a member bought, it passed at a tad over 6 months though, this photo was 6 months
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/ozzy-a-panther-oustalet-hybrid-how-big-will-he-get.149328/
Oh also craig didn't Breed them, he bought them and sold them, so I gave the flipper too much credit.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/panther-oustalet-hybrids.146140/
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/ozzy-a-panther-oustalet-hybrid-how-big-will-he-get.149328/
Oh also craig didn't Breed them, he bought them and sold them, so I gave the flipper too much credit.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/panther-oustalet-hybrids.146140/
Motherlode Chameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
This is a link to one of my previous threads about the topic. The updated "The Chameleon Handbook" by Francios Le Berre has two pictures in it of reported adult chameleon hybrids. One is on page 19 of a Furcifer pardalis x oustaleti hybrid. The second is on page 118 of an alleged Furcifer verrucosus x antimema adult hybrid. These two chameleons look not like any species I have seen identified and plausible hybrids. Here is a link to my previous thread.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/reptile-books-and-hybrid-madagascar-chameleons.37605/
Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/reptile-books-and-hybrid-madagascar-chameleons.37605/
Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
Punch
New Member
Would you mind showing me where this has been done “quite a lot”, or where Craig, or any other breeder successfully bred F2 offspring? (Also, as previously mentioned, Craig stated he bought them)
I haven’t seen any evidence of such, even googling exactly what you quoted.
But as Motherload stated there is a book with a picture of an adult Hybrid (from the wild) referenced.
Anyway, thanks for your personal hospitality and optimism. I am pretty excited about these babies at least, and will keep updates for those interested
Punch
New Member
Hey do you have a link for that video, I’m very interested! I tried googling the name, and CIN videos (along with the name) but couldn’t find It. I did end up staying up a bit late and watching a video of all the different spp. of chameleons in Madagascar..I had felt like I
knew a good amount of the different species of chameleons...but wow
cyberlocc
Chameleon Enthusiast
I am the one that stated Craig didn't breed them I had thought he did. There has been throughout the years, a few other times where folks have talked about it being done. Alot of people don't talk about it, after they do it. Craig was brought up on a Facebook group a few months back, and along with his bad flipping practices was this.
Who said anything about F2 offspring? I said they don't survive past 6 months, or that they haven't in what we have seen, how would they get F2 offspring?
As for my hospitality and optimism. I feel I was very polite actually. Believe me, you will see that once more and more posts on this thread happen. I do not feel like what your are doing is okay in the slightest, your rearing animals destined to die, you are mixing species, that are not intended to be mixed. Nothing you are doing is funny, okay, or admirable in anyway shape or form. It was not okay when anyone else did it either. So ya believe me, compared to what I could have, and wanted to say.
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Punch
New Member
Evolutionary speaking (even humans) have evolved due to hybridization between the same genus, mutations (and many other factors). Some of which result in stronger offspring, some don’t.
Your statement “rearing animals destined to die” is very ignorant and pessimistic. Homo neanderthalensis and Homo sapiens, hybrized for example. You could very well have Neanderthal DNA due to hybridization
Punch
New Member
As for your statement “don't survive past 6 months, or that they haven't in what we have seen”. As I posted earlier and Motherload mentioned, the first documentation (along with A picture and DNA confirmation) is of an adult hybrid between a Panther and Oustalet from the wild (much older than 6mo)
cyberlocc
Chameleon Enthusiast
You know that is older than 6 months how? We dont even know that is a hybrid lol, that is an old picture, and what that person thought it was. I have never seen a bioligist back that claim, as a matter of fact I am fairly certain that when Chris linked that, he said not to put any stock into that at all lol.
Motherlode Chameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
I only know of one source of the first CIN video "Madagascar A Land LIke No Other" and he won't be named publicly. You can pm me. This "Madagascar a Land Like No Other" video was originally released on VHS. I have VHS and DVD copies however have no means to make copies of them.
Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
Motherlode Chameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
I think hybrids happen and live longer than 6 months and make it to adult life stages. Keepers have not come to keeping chameleons in captivity to live nearly as long as they live in the wild. Calumma parsonii parsonii is estimated to live over 20-25 years in the natural habitat and an old Calumma parsonii parsonii in captivity as posted by some site is only 9-11 years. Why would not that apply to chameleon hybrids with regards to in captivity and in the wild?
Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
