Our vet said we should have been using UVA

[OldChamKeeper]

This is the best info given:

I understand your frustration and confusion.

Yes, please stop giving both your chams DAILY D3.
Panthers and Veiled can have D3 2x a month.
Jackson's only get D3 1x a month.
Although some D3 is necessary for chams kept indoors ---too much is very bad.
You can call it D3 toxicity or Hypervitaminosis D but no matter what you call it, too much D3 given to a chameleon can do serious harm to internal organs.


Your cham, with his swollen leg, damaged toe and lethargy sounds very much like he has a severe infection in his leg.

It sounds like your cham had injured his toe which allowed bacteria to get in.
The bacteria have caused an infection to spread throughout his leg.
Oftentimes, chams get their nail stuck in the cage screening and injure toes and/or break nails when trying to break free of the screen.

In addition to an injection of Baytril, he should be receiving an antibiotic every day, regardless of whether it is injected or oral..
This dosing is not a guess on my part, it comes directly from the manufacturer of Baytril , on Page 4http://www.animalhealth.bayer.com/fileadmin/media/baytril/pdf_companion/kap8.pdf

One of my Jackson's chams acquired an infection this way.
His foot was swollen, as the infection had not yet progressed to the rest of the leg.
My chams' vet squeezed the foot to get the thick, cheesy pus to come out through the toe where the infection had begun and the nail had been lost.

He instructed me to do the same the next day and, if need be, the following day, too.
My cham was given oral Baytril for several weeks, which cleared up the infection.

An infection that has caused the entire leg to be swollen may require even more aggressive treatment but not being a vet, I do not know for certain nor do I know what that treatment might be.

You did not say what medicine, if any, the vet gave you to administer or what else he told you to do, if anything.
If the only treatment has been a single shot of Baytril, I would quickly find someone else with more medical knowledge about chameleons to treat the poor cham.

What troubles me is that your vet has told you things that are 100% known to be untrue and, unless I've misunderstood, your cham seemed far better before treatment than afterwards.

Vets spend very little time in veterinary school learning about reptile medicine.
Unless they have specialized in it, they often have only a very general knowledge of it.

Feel free to send me a PM or email by clicking on my username.

1 - Not all vets are equal. Some are even in the ******* category. The information you were given puts that vet close to that. You need a real herp vet.

2 - I've dealt with this, you either have an infection in that leg (likely) or gout. Infections spread and become systemic resulting in the animal overall looking bad and lethargic.

I'm going to give you the simplest method of caring for him I can type.

Put him on a towel in his cage, we don't want him climbing much. Maybe put him in a smaller cage for now. I call it a Q-cage (quarantine).

Get him a Zoo-med 5.0 bulb and make sure he's within 12-18" of it. Only let it shine thru screen, no glass or plastic. Put it on a 12 hour timer.

Temp: Day temp 76-82 ( I keep mine around 82 but well hydrated when sick). Night temp above 70 while sick.

Hydration: If he will drink from a dripper, great. If not you may need to get some down him the hard way. I use a 50/50 mix of water and gatorade on sick herps. No issues over the years with this. Try not to soak him too much if at all, we don't need him stressing out more.

Now you got a simple set up for a sick Cham. Next is some Meds.


Baytril or Tri-Methyl-Sulfate is a good start. I prefer the sulfate as it is easier on their kidneys if this is a long term treatment....however if he has a fracture causing an infection the Baytril would be a good bet since it won't be a real long term program.

I'm gonna warn you when I say you have little time to treat this, might already be too late.

I'm not a Vet, just a hermit who lives in his cave and has been keeping chams all his life. I come out once in a while.

Good luck

 

[Maximillion]

I so sorry

All I can say to you is I know how you feel... It was my ignorance and stupidity that caused so much pain and suffering for my Max... But like me you have done all you were told to do and as I still blame myself and swear to never take on another living creature without the full knowledge of their needs we cannot continue to punish ourselves we must just learn and move forward. I am one of the lucky ones Max is doing much better but like you I had no knowledge of the uva... This is the first I have heard of it as well. I recommend asking Kate at lovereps she was such a wonderful help to me. She gave me confidence and great advice for caring for Max...She is a very informed and nice lady...Once again please don't punish yourself I found in doing that I had less time for healing Max...

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

You have gotten excellent advice for care requirements for your Jackson by all the great people who have commented so far! Based on your description of one leg being swollen that would be a highly unlikely presentation for MBD. Unless blood calcium levels were very low or X-rays showed poor bone density that does not sound like a correct diagnosis. It doesn't sound like those diagnostics were performed. Please check the MBD link in my signature to see what MBD looks like - swollen legs really aren't part of it (except in rare cases, or iguanas but it affects multiple legs). And even if it were there is no indication for antibiotics when treating MBD unless there is also an infection. I don't prescribe antibiotics to my MBD chams, nor do I give vitamin injections. With appropriate lighting and calcium replacement supplementation they bounce back very well. Only one leg affected is much more likely to be an infection, or potentially gout. I'd love to see a picture to help guide you further. If there is asymmetrical swelling an x-ray should be taken to determine if there is affected bone (osteomyelitis) or mineralization of the tissues (gout). Your vet unfortunately does not sound very experienced with chameleons.

As others have said, watch the temps you get with a solarglo light - that would be far too hot on my Jackson's cage. His basking bulb wattage is no higher than 60w to keep his temps in appropriate levels.

 

[iluvrango]

Yes, Incorrect diagnosis

We were planning to take JT back to the vet we met last Monday (the one who came so highly recommended by the reptile expo chameleon breeder, as well as an associate at PetsMart), but this morning when I walked into the breakfast nook area where JT's enclosure is located, he was hanging upside down from a vine with his swollen/infected foot sticking straight up in the air under the heat lamp. His foot had been obviously been bleeding and it looked like a bloody nub. My husband and I were alarmed, so we took JT to the closest ER where they had a vet who specialized in exotics (35 miles away). We explained JT's recent history, and when we told her the new vet we saw on Monday told us JT's right front toenail "came off" and he cauterized it, the ER vet was visibly disturbed/disgusted. She informed us that cautery should never be used on a lizard, as it damages the cells around the cauterized area and can lead to wide spread, irreparable damage. She told us JT's foot looks really bad and if it doesn't heal on its own, he may require amputation of the entire leg. All because the first vet cauterized a toe that would have healed and grown a new toenail if left alone. Also, she said she would never administer an injection into a swollen, infected leg. The previous vet injected Vitamins A and D, plus Baytril, into the infected leg on Monday. He then told us to return once a week for two more weeks. The ER vet said Baytril would not work if it was not administered at least three times a week.

I am furious and disgusted with the previous vet.

But we will move forward and do whatever it takes to help poor JT. The ER vet seemed to know chameleons. She gave him an injection of Baytril plus an injection of Meloxicam for inflammation.Then she gave us oral versions of these two medications to administer every 24 hours and she recommended a reptile specialist for our follow up visits. We will call Monday to see if they can get us in for an evaluation. Also, the ER vet recommended hydrotherapy (gently spraying warm water on the affected leg for up to five minutes, three times a day, to promote circulation and healing). We will try it tomorrow. She still wants us to force-feed him until he is voluntarily eating, but they showed us how to open his mouth by stabilizing him under his bottom horn and gently pulling down the skin surrounding his gullet. We will try this in the morning.

I just pray that this poor little guy doesn't have to have his leg amputated. He has gone through so much already!

I will try to post a picture of his leg. I think it already looks a little better since he received the injection of Meloxicam earlier this evening, but you can see how it looks like it could be infected. I'm going to try to post it now....

 

[iluvrango]

PLEASE See JT's Picture under Members' Gallery

I am not tech-savvy, but my husband said he was able to save JT's swollen, bleeding R front leg picture under Members' Gallery. This photo was taken late Saturday morning before we took him to the ER vet. Since the previous vet on Monday told us the x-ray was negative, I, too, think the MBD diagnosis was incorrect; especially given the 5.0 Reptisun tropical UVB light, the calcium dusted crickets (with Calcium with D3 twice per month), and the fact that JT is taken outside once per day (in Texas). As a Registered Nurse, I am a caretaker by nature, and if I have failed JT and he ends up losing his leg due to the previous toenail cauterization, I know I will carry this guilt for a very long time (i.e., rest of my life). But that is nothing compared with the suffering this poor little guy has endured. I have never met a sweeter, kinder, gentler animal in my life. No wonder I can't sleep at night.

 

[MelissaB]

I am so sorry that you and JT are going through this. Poor little guy. I hope they can save his leg, and that he heals well. It sounds like you found a much better vet.

I hope you don't mind, but I figured it would be easier if I brought your pictures over here, into the thread.

 

[Lovereps]

As a Registered Nurse, I am a caretaker by nature, and if I have failed JT and he ends up losing his leg due to the previous toenail cauterization, I know I will carry this guilt for a very long time (i.e., rest of my life).

But that isn't your fault.
Hindsight is always 20/20, as the saying goes.
If you had known the guy wasn't competent to treat your cham, you never would have taken him there.
That vet shouldn't be treating animals whose medical treatment he does not know.
Shame on him.

I think your handsome JT is a fighter.

Hopefully, now that he is getting the proper treatments, he can fight off the infection without sacrificing the limb.

I would still bring him outdoors when temps are low enough.
I strongly believe there is a strong psychological benefit, in addition to the known physical benefit.

Phoenix worms and silkworms are both said to contain certain substances which aid in healing, so you might want to consider getting some fresh silkies or phoenixworms.

JT can easily eat the large phoenixworms but would need small to medium silkworms.
I like to get the phoenixworms from the source and here's their page on the healing benefits and nutirents http://www.phoenixworm.com/servlet/the-template/comparison/Page
One source of silkworms http://www.coastalsilkworms.com/silkworm-pod.html?___SID=U

Please keep us up to date on JT's progress.

 

[ridgebax1]

I too am a registered nurse and a caretaker of several pets. I completely understand how you are feeling. I have told many people not to feel bad about events that have ended up harming the very animals we love and are willing to do whatever is necessary for them. It is much easier to say than practice. My entry into this hobby was a totally impulse purchase of an adult veiled chameleon with his too small cage and incorrect lighting along with incorrect husbandry advice from the pet shop that sold him to me. None the less I loved Pete and continued to care for him in the manner in which I was instructed until he fell ill as a result of the "properly" provided improper care. I did prior to him becoming ill provide him with a larger cage. I had him for a year and a half before he developed signs of MBD; I found this forum after Pete became ill and he stayed with me for another few weeks. I was heartbroken when he died. I did tons of research got better lighting and watering equipment and brought a new veiled home. Omar was a joy and I loved him very much too. Feeling confident that I had the basic husbandry skills needed to care for chams, I purchased a Nosy Be panther, Clouseau who came to me at 3 months of age and about the size of a 20 ounces soda bottle cap. I upgraded my mist system and got Arcadia lights for them, had a regular supplementation schedule for them, fed them well gutloaded crickets, roaches, horn, silk, phoenix and butter worms. Despite all this Clouseau got stomatitis (I think from a bad batch of hornworms) which despite treatment with two antibiotics, 3 vet vistits, subcutaneous fluid injections progressed to a URI and another antibiotic, he never recovered and died from the URI after about 3 weeks of treatment. Shortly after that Omar succumbed to complications from a severe thermal burn which he sustained after he removed some screen from his cage ceiling and sat too close to his heat lamp while I was at work.
I was so disheartened that I was ready to just throw out all my equipment and just forget about having chameleons. I knew I was too emotional to make a permanent decision so I just packed everything away. I probably will get another chameleon, especially after talking at length to one of the forum members.
My point at the end of this diatribe is that you cared for chameleon in good faith. You and JT were let down by people who should know better. Your as much a victim of the bad advice as JT. All he knows is how he feels and is doing his best to get better, he is not going to carry a grudge or think less of you because you made a mistake in good faith. And that is what is important... good faith led you here, asking the right questions, taking the advice of some of the most experienced keepers on the planet. So hang in there

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Ah yes, the loss of toenail at this start of this makes this a very classic problem seen especially in jacksons. They will lose a toenail either traumatically (caught on screen, etc) or because an infection is already brewing under the toenail. And then the infection starts in the toe and can start to spread up the foot and leg. Thus you get swelling of only one leg and the very inflamed lesion showing on the top of the foot is where the infection started. So definitely MBD was an incorrect diagnosis...and he was being treated incorrectly for that incorrect diagnosis no less. I would not have given injections into the swollen leg either! The tissue is already abnormal so circulation is not going to be good at distributing that medication properly. But I also would not have given injectable vitamins, or Baytril if I was treating for MBD. As your ER vet said (great that you found one knowledgeable about reptiles and especially chameleons!) injectable Baytril is not effective given once every 2 weeks. Makes no sense. So I'm glad they started oral medications as well as antibiotics are definitely needed and metacam as an anti-inflammatory will reduce swelling and make him feel better. Make sure he is well hydrated as both those medications can be tough on the kidneys. So it sounds like you're on the right track now! And hopefully in the market for a new vet...

 

[OldChamKeeper]

As soon as you said petsmart (notice I don't even capitalize their name) referred you to a vet I just rolled my eyes. petsmart sometimes gets a vet on contract with them and part of that deal is to send customers to them. I'm not sure if that was the deal in this case but I've seen it before over the years. Even when I was running pet stores I'd have vets come in the store to try and work out a deal like that. We had one doctor for the mammals and another for the birds (she wouldn't see Herps) and another for the reptiles (he had zero exp with large parrots). I pissed off quite a few "dog and cat" vets for not sending them the other types of customers.

Your animal looks robust, that is key to him making it.

Baytril would be your best bet as ferret mentioned. At least she's a vet.

Not that I'm an instigator or the like, but I'd suggest you go back to petsmart and tell them how incompetent their recommended vet was. If you want that other vet to not repeat his mistakes on the next folks with a chameleon, go back and demand a refund for his lack of knowledge. Nothing changes until money is involved.

Good luck

 

[Lovereps]

Not that I'm an instigator or the like, but I'd suggest you go back to petsmart and tell them how incompetent their recommended vet was. If you want that other vet to not repeat his mistakes on the next folks with a chameleon, go back and demand a refund for his lack of knowledge. Nothing changes until money is involved.

Good luck

That's an excellent suggestion and I hope the OP does that.

BTW, Ferretinmyshoes was a chameleon owner for years before becoming a vet (and still has chams)----and is a she

If only she was in a practice a few thousand miles closer to where I am.....

 

[werecat]

I'm so sorry you, your husband, and JT are going through this nightmare! It is really horrible when a vet, who should be someone you can trust, ends up causing more harm through ignorance. It's great that you are on the right track now. I hope JT heals quickly and completely.

If he does end up needing an amputation, know that it is not your fault. I'm sure it will be very hard on you, but it may not be as hard on him as you think. Many animals live a very good quality of life even after losing a limb. Despite their fragility these animals can be surprisingly adaptable also. My chameleon has battled an eye infection/problem for some time and we have treated it with multiple medications to no avail. Our cham now seems to be partially to completely blind in one eye, but is otherwise healthy and active. He has adapted to it and is still able to hunt on his own with decent range and accuracy! Just trying to say there is hope even in the worst case scenario. I certainly hope it does not come to that.

Wishing you and JT the best!

 

[kinyonga]

I've had a couple of tripod chameleons over the years that I was given as rescues and they did very well. It's surprising how well they can do with only three legs. Hoping it won't come to that but I just wanted you to know that they can do well if it does happen.

Hooe the swelling comes down and the infection goes away.

 

[iluvrango]

JT is getting intensive care for his infection - previously misdiagnosed with MBD

We took JT to the ER vet on Saturday because we found him hanging upside down from a vine with his bad foot straight up in the air under the heat light. It was covered in blood. The ER vet visit took 7 hours, but thank goodness we took him. If nothing else, it prevented us from returning to the vet who planned to inject his infected leg with Calcium in order to treat the MBD he doesn't even have. JT went to a herp vet today and she took new x-rays because the previous ones were poor quality and not diagnostic. Today his bones looked great. No signs of MBD whatsoever. However, he has a major infection in his foot. (Pic posted in Gallery.) Baytril has been discontinued and the antibiotic has been stepped up to Ceftazidime. I have to administer a subcutaneous injection each evening. I wasn't able to go to the vet appointment today because I had my own pre-op appointment for foot surgery. My husband told me when I came home that I have to administer the antibiotic injections each night. I'm a nurse, but I have never given a SQ injection to a lizard. I am calling the vet tomorrow to obtain specifics on the depth of the injection (between the scales). Also, JT is on a special diet that has to be reconstituted. Both his food and his Ceftazidime have to be stored in the freezer. He also has a topical antibiotic for his foot. Poor little guy! His leg is still hugely swollen and his foot is losing tissue. The vet should know within a week whether or not he has to have his leg amputated. My husband and I love him and are so attached to him. Please keep JT in your thoughts and well wishes.

 

[iluvrango]

Just found all the posts!

I am still learning how to post and follow threads (I spend way too much time at work, apparently), and as soon as I posted my last entry, I discovered all of your posts. You all are so amazing and supportive. It brings tears to my eyes to read about your concern and your empathy. I am one of those pet owners who views all of their pets as family members, so it is devastating to me when my pet suffers, especially needlessly. Thank you all for helping alleviate some of my guilt. That has really eaten away at me, and your reassurance has been more helpful than you probably realize. I appreciate each and every one of you for sharing and for being there! Thank you so much!

(And yes, I will be sure to tell PetSmart about the uninformed vet they continue to refer customers to for help with chameleons.)

 

[OldChamKeeper]

(And yes, I will be sure to tell PetSmart about the uninformed vet they continue to refer customers to for help with chameleons.)

My work is done. < Goes back into his cave and rolls the boulder across the entrance>

 

[Carlton]

If nothing else, it prevented us from returning to the vet who planned to inject his infected leg with Calcium in order to treat the MBD he doesn't even have. JT went to a herp vet today and she took new x-rays because the previous ones were poor quality and not diagnostic. Today his bones looked great. No signs of MBD whatsoever. However, he has a major infection in his foot.

I cannot even imagine vet injecting calcium into an infected leg! Or insisting that the poor thing ever had MBD due to "lack of UVA". Blows my mind. When I read your first post about the swollen limb my first thought was an infection from a damaged toenail. It happens so often especially in chams that have been recently imported or shuttled between dealers, wholesale, retail, etc. They are already compromised by all the changes and stress, and less than great caging can lead to toe and foot injuries. But, as you were not familiar with what a healthy cham's toes and feet should look like, it could have gone unnoticed.

I hope the new and much more appropriate treatment saves him, 3 legs or 4. He's a lovely guy.

IMHO you should have your competent vet make you a copy of his diagnosis and treatment record, and take it to petstupid's manager. Back it up with current husbandry info from this forum (sort of an impartial source). Challenge them saying their vet's incompetence resulted in extreme suffering and that their vet's contract should be ended.

 

[JosieJobo]

IMHO you should have your competent vet make you a copy of his diagnosis and treatment record, and take it to petstupid's manager. Back it up with current husbandry info from this forum (sort of an impartial source). Challenge them saying their vet's incompetence resulted in extreme suffering and that their vet's contract should be ended.

They really should pay for his treatment as it was them that caused the suffering.
Poor cham hope his leg recovers Xx

 

[iluvrango]

JT's saga continues

Today we started out with frozen concentrated food that we reconstituted with spring water and injected into JT's mouth (against his will) via syringe. This is so traumatic for all of us. Then we force fed him the anti-inflammatory via syringe. Then we performed hydrotherapy, as prescribed by the vet, by gently spraying his infected, open wound with warm water from the kitchen sink sprayer. He tolerated it today. When he doesn't like it, we don't do it. Then we soaked his lower body in a yellow bowl of warm water to help with hydration since he hasn't been drinking for the past few days. He seems to be pacified by the warm water. He turned a healthy yellow/green color. We placed him back under his basking bulb (after applying Rx antibiotic ointment topically to his foot wound). He eventually collapsed on his vine and turned smokey grey again. It really is like a roller coaster ride with him. One minute he seems to be doing much better, the next he seems to be crashing. We take him out to sit in the sun two to three times a day since he has always enjoyed going outside and just observing the world. Later in the day (after I have finally gone to work), my husband takes JT out and feeds him from the syringe with newly reconstituted food. Then when I come home, it's time to inject him with an antibiotic (Ceftrimazole) subcutaneously. It is kept in the freezer, so I thaw it by rolling it between my palms. I remove as much air from the syringe as possible, careful not to squirt any of the medication out. Tonight was my first time to administer a subcutaneous injection to a chameleon. It didn't go very well. I was so stressed about injecting him properly and then he flinched and some of the medication leaked out. It is such a small amount to begin with (0.2 mL) that every little bit is critical. I felt terrible. I will get it right tomorrow evening no matter what. Then we had to apply more topical antibiotic cream to JT's infected foot and place him back under his heat lamp. He became fussy and he grabbed the back of his screen enclosure with his bad foot! I was freaking out. Then he seemed to be stuck on the screen, probably because his foot was so swollen and he was having difficulty disengaging his remaining toenail. I tried not to panic and after a few moments, he was able to extricate his foot from the screen. Then he did it again! As soon as he retrieved his bad foot from the screen, I backed away to allow him to settle down. I have noticed when we are doing all the interventions to him that his respiratory rate increases significantly - sometimes he is breathing faster than I am. That worries me because I know he is stressed. My husband wants to go ahead and take him to the vet and have the leg amputated because it has been bleeding off and on. I think the swelling might be a tiny bit better, so I don't want to lop off his leg prematurely. I think we need to see the vet again first - or at least send pics from earlier today. So far, our vet bills for this illness have surpassed $600, so this has been a source of not only emotional stress but also financial stress for us. However, we will do whatever it takes to help JT and we will do our very best to make the best informed decisions regarding his care. I'm not sure if anyone is still reading this long message, but it has been therapeutic for me to write it. Thanks to everyone for the support and the very helpful information. I'm sure JT would be appreciative, too, if he realized what you all have done - especially saving him from the misdiagnosis/mistreatment he received from the first vet.

 

[Lovereps]

Hang in there--things do get easier with practice.
You might find some helpful ideas here https://www.chameleonforums.com/care/healthx/vet/

I have a few suggestions on making his day a bit less stressful.

The fewer times he is handled, the better, as it will stress him less..

If I understand you correctly, you're feeding him 2x a day.
He really only needs to eat once a day at most, which would help to minimize the number of times he is handled. You could even feed him every other day.
You can make a very nutritious sick cham recipe called Bug Juice that he will find tasty;

"Originally Posted by laurie
If you need the homemade way to make food, make bug juice. Bug juice is easy and really good for your cham. Take a small blender add 4 oz of pedalite, 4 oz of ensure, some calcium, and a lot of well gut loaded feeders, I use crickets cause they blend best. Blend it until everything is liquid, strain it to get out legs and thinks that did not blend. Put it in a syringe and give it to your cham. i have kept extra in the frig for a max of 3 days. It makes more than you need but it doesn't blend well unless you have sufficient liquid."

If you get soft bodied insects like silkworms or phoenixworms, you can actually feed them through a needless syringe or maybe they'd be tempting enough if you got the phoenixworms because they wriggle a lot.
These 2 feeders, as well as commercially cultivated hornworms are also helpful for slightly dehydrated chams because they have a rather high water content.

If he typically gapes when you first handle him, then you may be able to just drop a juicy bug in his open mouth and he may eat it without being force fed at all.


As for the soakings, you'd be far better off just misting him with very warm water or giving him a "cham shower" like this:
According to veterinarian "Ferretinmyshoes" soaking a chameleon is of no benefit and it is stressful.
Please see her comments in post #18 here https://www.chameleonforums.com/please-help-49946/index2.html

The "healthy colors" you see when he soaks may just be a reaction to soaking him water that may be too warm--remember Jackson's are cooler weather chams than many other types of chams--and once he cools down, he goes back to the ill colors.

If you have to apply the foot ointment several times per day, you can probably skip handling him and just put a big glob on your finger and rub it on his foot or get him to step on your finger.

FWIW, I wouldn't rush to amputate for minor bleeding.
Perhaps it's more oozing than bleeding?

I'm rooting for JT and truly hoping that he will surprise you by making a full recovery with all limbs intact!