Orgin of captive wc T.J. Xantholophus please?

[james L]

Where are all the t.jacksonii xantholophus coming from these days? Wild caughts are always for sale and im not sure where or how they got here. I always thought they were coming from Tanz. but they seem to be around when other Tanz. species arent around. Are they just imported in huge quantities from there so theres always some left over? Or are they coming from Hawaii? But then HI doesnt allow you to collect that many so that wouldnt make sense. Someone out there have any real info??? Thanks

 

[Texas Panther Man]

I wondered that also. You rarely see cbb jacksonii. At least i haven't sen many. Jmo but i thinnk they are harder to breed successfully.

 

[Kent67]

T.j. xantholophus is found only on Mt. Kenya, not in Tanzania. The ones we see sold as "cb" here are, for the most part, from the introduced population in the Hawai'ian Islands. True cb are occasionally available as well, but in general, if you see more than a pair of adults (or even sub-adults over 4 months old) for sale it's very safe to assume they're from Hawai'i. Yes, Hawai'i doesn't allow more than three (I think, right?) to be taken and they must be for personal use, but that doesn't mean large numbers aren't just shipped out by FedEx or UPS without the proper permits.

 

[xanthoman]

legal wc jackson's xantholophus ? not

actually the number for the hawaiin permits is four and it clearly states on the permit, not for resale or commercial gain. . im guessing that the source of your curiosity comes from the recently advertised xanths on king snake?. this was recently discussed (again) in this thread; https://www.chameleonforums.com/wc-jacksons-bs-reptile-35855/ there is no such thing as a legal wc t. j. xantholophus. anyone advertizing wc t. jacksonii xantholophus, is either misinformed, oblivious of the law, or trying to skirt it. kenya, their true place of origin , stopped exporting them in the early 80s. tanzania still exports t.j. xantholophus as cites compliant under the umbrella of being farm raised . a portion of which come from mountain bird and trophy, a game and reptile farm in arusha. i dont understand why anyone would want (or advertize as) a wc xanth anyway , with there being such a widespread availabilty of (us) farm raised and captive bred t. j. xantholophus ? like kent67 said, i suspect that most xanths advertized as wc come from people who got them from hawaii and either failed to notice or chose to ignore the fine print. jmo/ edit/ i will say this, that the wording of the hawaiin permit deals only with the animals at hand and does not clearly address the issue of their offspring thus some what justifying, or at least explaining, so many sources of us mainland commercially raised xantholophus

 

[Brad Ramsey]

xanthoman

I know you have done some research ... and I know what the regulations etc. are ... but I'm positive these animals are from Hawaii 90% of the time.
Regardless of any information on websites or paper ... they are WC from Hawaii.

BTW Julie (chams1) will have some beautiful CB specimens at the Chicago show this weekend. Little tanks!

-Brad

 

[CreepyCritter]

Well let me help contribute a little. I'm actually from Hawaii. The pet stores here only sell jackson chameleons and they range from as little as $10-50. So, they probably are all wild caught.

Too bad panthers weren't introduced here too because I really want one for $50 instead of paying the outrageous prices for one on the mainland.

 

[xanthoman]

xanthoman

I know you have done some research ... and I know what the regulations etc. are ... but I'm positive these animals are from Hawaii 90% of the time.
Regardless of any information on websites or paper ... they are WC from Hawaii.

BTW Julie (chams1) will have some beautiful CB specimens at the Chicago show this weekend. Little tanks!

-Brad

i agree whole heartedly, any jackson's labeled as wc are almost certainly from hawaii. and if one can get them here by any means whether legal or not , the usdfw seems relatively unconcerned as to their origin. there is nothing stopping somebody in hawaii from putting them in an unmarked package and overnighting them to the states, that still does not make them legal. according to the hawaiian dept. of forestry and wildlife it is also illegal to transport them between the islands, which i think is safe to assume that it is probably a fairly common practice, as there is no real means of enforcement in place , i would be willing to bet that many of the ones for sale in hawaiian pet stores are in all actuality illegally transported from the other islands. its a ineffective and whack policy that only restricts those that actually try to conform to the law, which i think probably has the effect of erroding the local laws(as they relate to jackson's)./ veileds have now gained a foothold in the islands as well. jacksons have managed to establish themselves in a few small enclaves of california and florida as well , and in conversations with the us dept. of fish and wildlife there seems to be no official policy or laws yet in place to deal with the issue , i suppose one could harvest from those areas and legally refer to them as wild caughtwhich is tantamount to saying get them while you can, and of course i would love to hear from any body who has actually seen or harvested them from either california or florida

 

[james L]

In 2009 I heard about 2 populations of T.J. Xan. in FL. One in the town of Port St. Lucie,Martin county and a another in Hendry county. I was not told the exact spots but I did hear it from reptile dealers. Maybe some are coming from Fl and I never knew it. I know there was a population of jackson in the Gainsville area for about 10 years but it was picked clean some time ago, so they can make it here. Interesting how nobody is 100% on where they came from, but there always around.

 

[Chris Anderson]

actually the number for the hawaiin permits is four and it clearly states on the permit, not for resale or commercial gain. . im guessing that the source of your curiosity comes from the recently advertised xanths on king snake?. this was recently discussed (again) in this thread; https://www.chameleonforums.com/wc-jacksons-bs-reptile-35855/ there is no such thing as a legal wc t. j. xantholophus. anyone advertizing wc t. jacksonii xantholophus, is either misinformed, oblivious of the law, or trying to skirt it. kenya, their true place of origin , stopped exporting them in the early 80s. tanzania still exports t.j. xantholophus as cites compliant under the umbrella of being farm raised . a portion of which come from mountain bird and trophy, a game and reptile farm in arusha. i dont understand why anyone would want (or advertize as) a wc xanth anyway , with there being such a widespread availabilty of (us) farm raised and captive bred t. j. xantholophus ? like kent67 said, i suspect that most xanths advertized as wc come from people who got them from hawaii and either failed to notice or chose to ignore the fine print. jmo/ edit/ i will say this, that the wording of the hawaiin permit deals only with the animals at hand and does not clearly address the issue of their offspring thus some what justifying, or at least explaining, so many sources of us mainland commercially raised xantholophus

Knowing and having personally brought in shipments from Joe B. at Mountain Bird and Trophy, knowing the importers he current supplies in the US and knowing a lot of the main dealers of T. j. xantholophus in this part of the country, I can tell you that you are wrong about Joe sending out T. j. xantholophus as F1 from his farm to the US. He does send out T. j. merumontanus but not T. j. xantholophus. Even if he was breeding them at his farm to export them, his prices are higher for F1 chams then the cost of getting them from Hawaii making it unprofitable for him to even bother. The vast majority of these animals are coming in from Hawaii (legal or not) with some additional supplementation from introduced populations in California, Florida and actual captive bred specimens.

Chris

 

[xanthoman]

i agree whole heartedly, any jackson's labeled as wc are almost certainly from hawaii. i wasnt trying to desparge j.b. at all, i know his farm has an excellent reputation. it was my impression that a handful of us importers had received farm raised xanths from him, but then i can only go by what i read. and beside if somebody had gotten xanths from him they would labeled as farm raised, not wild caught. my only point was there is only a limited # of places where wild jacksons can come from, and of those places, hawaii certainly seems like it would be easiest, (and most logical) to get xanths from. but if some body was to get xanths from hawaii under questionable legal circumstances, why would they then turn around and market them as wc? when it would certainly be more discreet (for lack of a better word) to market them as cb? and why is it that whenever you ask a seller about the origin of wild caught xanths they are always so evasive ? wouldnt it just be easier to claim cb?

 

[OOOst16]

It really saddens me that jacksons are sold so cheep. Its a discrace to the species.....not to mention pet stores can just pick them off the trees in hawaii and sell them with permits.jacksons are just as special as other chams. There not anoles. There a beautfiul species that deservs. Respect. (Anols do to but you get the idea). I guess what I'm really irritated at....is that people can just pick up this exotic lizard....keep it....have no idea how take care of it....then it dies.....so the go pick up another one. I dono if there's laws agiant picking up a wc jackson in hawaii and keeping it.....but so what peoeple will do it anyways.

 

[james L]

Since I posted this thread I did a little more investigating and found some dealers of t.j. xan. said there jacks were FL farm raised. To me that meant WC, but in FL? I cant imagine a population of these doing that well without getting noticed or documented. Like I mentioned before, I had heard of them being here but never thought a population would be strong enough to collect on semi to regular basis. My guess is if there here they are hard to find, and people are protecting the spots. I do assume now that the majority of them are coming from HI illegally, but if I had to guess I would think that it is only illegal for the shipper in HI to send but not for the receiver in US. So I think this is the loop hole for people who are bringing them in from HI.

 

[xanthoman]

anyone who knowingly recieved any sort of reptile that had been illegally imported, transported, or raised, would also be technically guilty of a crime as well, one with potentially hefty legal penalties, but it does not seem as the usdw is that concerned about the origins of xanths once they get here, but i think that is largely a matter of resources and likely to change eventually. xanths are a fairly prolific cham and there are a # of breeders around the nation who breed a fair # of them for commercial purposes, raising them is another story, which at least in part, explains why they are so cheap (given their legal issues) and is also why there is frequently (and sadly)so many xanth neonates on the market, because it is easier to breed them, than to raise them. have you ever noticed that most of the (commercial) places that sell xanth neonates have no buyer requirements. i do agree that xanths are under valued in more ways than one.