OMG...poor chameleon!!!

[SoCaliSon]

This freaks me out on so many levels ...

This is all info he made readily available to anyone who views his Vids on YouTube...

What freaks me out is that there are people out there who call that this guy is trying to breed his veileds...And putting them both through hell in the process. They are focused on trying to make money selling "Rare" animals... Unfortunatly their knowledge of these "rare" animals appears to be nill, imagine the info they are giving there customers... I find this disgusting.

 

[Kat77]

No kidding. I hadn't even thought of what info they must be passing on to potential buyers.

 

[Menton]

This is all info he made readily available to anyone who views his Vids on YouTube...

What freaks me out is that there are people out there who call that this guy is trying to breed his veileds...And putting them both through hell in the process. They are focused on trying to make money selling "Rare" animals... Unfortunatly their knowledge of these "rare" animals appears to be nill, imagine the info they are giving there customers... I find this disgusting.

You posting the info does not freak me out at all. BRAVO and thank you !!!!!
what freaks me out is that this guy thinks of him self as a breeder !!!! Sorry but breding something to abuse like that is SICK !

 

[Eric Adrignola]

The worst thing about that last video is the water - seriously, I'm surprised it didn't aspirate right there on camera - stupid stupid.

Sometimes, you HAVE to grab a chameleon. Sometimes, gentle handling just won't cut it.

It's just kinda tricky with a really mean chameleon. I posted a pic of CCIC a few years back - people were up in arms because it showed me holding my male veiled (who was basking in the sun for a few hours - they turn extra evil in sunlight sometimes). I had to get him in, and I had to resort to grabbing him. I was holding him firmly but gently - but it looked, to others, like I was trying to crush his neck.

And part of the key is getting a hold of their front legs - this keeps them from turning around and biting you without havign to put direct pressure on their necks.

Chameleons absolutly despise any and all "grabbing". Even my sweet melleri and deremensis will try to kill me if I grab them. Grabbing is necessary many times - but you use it only when you need to. they hate it.

 

[Nicodemayo]

The worst thing about that last video is the water - seriously, I'm surprised it didn't aspirate right there on camera - stupid stupid.

Sometimes, you HAVE to grab a chameleon. Sometimes, gentle handling just won't cut it.

It's just kinda tricky with a really mean chameleon. I posted a pic of CCIC a few years back - people were up in arms because it showed me holding my male veiled (who was basking in the sun for a few hours - they turn extra evil in sunlight sometimes). I had to get him in, and I had to resort to grabbing him. I was holding him firmly but gently - but it looked, to others, like I was trying to crush his neck.

And part of the key is getting a hold of their front legs - this keeps them from turning around and biting you without havign to put direct pressure on their necks.

Chameleons absolutly despise any and all "grabbing". Even my sweet melleri and deremensis will try to kill me if I grab them. Grabbing is necessary many times - but you use it only when you need to. they hate it.

i agree, like when i take out my female veiled to weigh her i have to be a little more aggressive or ill never get her out.

 

[Kat77]

The thing is though, that guy did NOT have to do that. He did it for giggles on Youtube. The thing that angered me most was the water too. What an idiot.
And he's trying to breed. Yikes.

 

[SoCaliSon]

I agree Eric... Sometimes I have to bring them out when they don't like to.. but I have never had to do it like that guy... I'm sorry but that was plain cruelty.

1)What is the point of him continuing to flick it before he picked it up... To piss it off more?

2) Once he had it he held it in a death grip around the neck and stuck him under the faucet?!?!?

3) I have handled some really pissed off Chams... But never have seen one flale their body in desperation like that one... If they were to do that.. I would let them be... and maybe try again after they had a chance to calm down... I have been spending all morning reaming this guy. I'll post the comment I put on his YouTube Profile.




Okay.. .I have been going Vigilante on this guy all morning... and here is what I posted on his YouTube profile... If this were just an inexperienced keeper... I would leave it at an email... but since this is a supposed breeder.. I am going to go all out...

"I am not sure about your other animals... But from seeing the way you keep and treat your Veiled Chameleons I would not consider you fit to care for any animals. There are plenty of "newbie" mistakes that are apparent in your videos... But seeing them from someone who claims to be experienced, and is attempting to breed and offer husbandry advice, is completely unexcuseable. The "How to handle a mean Chameleon"video is probably not up anymore as it was pointed out to the Reptile keeping community, and was greeted with all levels of disgust, and by now has probably been flagged to the point where it can no longer be viewed. You presented this as an instructional "How To" and everyone in the Herping community who acctually knows what they are doing knows that this is exactaly what NOT TO DO. This was a video on"How Too Abuse a Chameleon", and because of this it was flagged for Animal Abuse. Your name and information have been distributed to the pet keeping community to make people aware of this... Now you are going to have to deal with the consequences of being more concerned about making a penny selling "rare pets" instead of focusing on the care and needs of your animals first and foremost.

Here is what I recommend you do... Find a good home for your Chams... Then if you are still interested in having chams...DO SOME RESEARCH so that you are actually prepared to keep this living animal in the environment it needs to thrive... YOU NEVER KEEP THEM IN A GLASS TANK!!! Then work on gaining a respect for your animals... With the reckless way you handled that chameleon sticking his head under the sink (you are lucky that cham didn't die in your hands right there) it is obvious the comfort of your animals means nothing to you. If you try to erase or delete this warning it will show up everywhere you can think of finding it until you have proven you are providing the proper care for your animals.

I'm sure you will be hearing from a lot more people than just myself."

 

[BocaJan]

I posted a message on his website also. He is an absolute jerk and it is obvious that he doesn't know diddly about raising or caring for his lovely chams. No wonder they are so angry with him.

 

[SoCaliSon]

Okay.. He gave me a response....

He responded to my Message...

Re: You should not be allowed to keep animals...
Ummm...
Well,
OK
First off the thirty gallon terrarium was only temporary. During the time willy was in this cage, of which no longer is, he was given week off week on free roam in my aprtment wich is full of plants and other climbing apperaticies. The tap water drink was wrong, the facuet was too high and the water was not declorinated. I do personally give my chameleons drinks. My female, which I rasied, is well trained on drinking from a water bottle, willy is on his way. I kept my aprtment at a very warm temperature, I also kept it very humid (constanly running humidifier). Youl also notice that their are always live plants, lots of watering to add to the humidity, and non-toxic so they can nip off leaves, letting me know if they were thirsty. Holding a cham that someone has neglected can be tricky. You cant scoop a big defensive chameleon, they will bite and their bacteria are painful, I KNOW. So, inorder to clean or mantain the terrarium, or to let willy out on his weekly feild trips he would have to be handled. This video was shot just a few weeks after i picked willy up and by the end of our stay at our old place willy has gotten alittle better on being picked up and i had gotten a little faster in moving him. Curretly, since June 1, we have moved, have more room, and have built a large cage in which handeling will be less nessisary. I'm sorry you feel that willy was being mistreated. I have owned alot of animals. I have handled alot of animals. When you have a mean animal sometime unorthodox ways of doing things must be employed. I hope you can understand. In this video we were both learning. I had had a Cham for about a year, I held her everynight for two to four hours, so dealing with a scared chameleon was new to me, and this video showed it. I just want you to know that willy was not malicously mistreated, and I have already heard every point you brought up. I did not inherit, I rescued. He was dumped at a pet shop, had a closed infected eye, and was given to me for free with the purchise of his 30 gal aquarium, which i was told was the proper enclosure. I have learned many things from and since this video and im keeping it up because of that.
I hope I settled some of your anger.
I may take this vid down because of toobers like you.
But for now it stays.
Joe

Bugs me that we share the same name....

Here was my response

Re: You should not be allowed to keep animals... Re: Re: You should not be allowed to keep animals...
I am going to try not to be as aggressive here... But I want to let you know that there is still a lot that you are going to have to learn... and In my opinion you should have already known this before attempting to breed. These are points that you will get from any experienced chameleon keeper.

1) Thirty Gallon, Fifty gallon (like the one your site shows) 100 gal.. doesn't matter... A glass Terrarium should never be used for a Veiled Chameleon... There is not nearly enough air circulation for them and you have a large risk of the animal developing UPI, (Upper Resperatory Infection) which is very serious...

2) You should have known this one before ever owning a cham...
A pissy Veiled is a Healthy Veiled. It is VERY RARE.. to find a Veiled chameleon that will readily let you pick them up, which is why people the experienced people should always tell the newbies... "Chameleons are not Lizards to hold every day." Most are incredibly stressed out by the human contact and it should be used only when absolutely necessary. The stress induced by handling shortens their life span drastically. When they refused to be picked up... You just let them be... give them their space... and a lot of times it takes a bit, but they will learn to trust you , and then you can handle them occasionally without stressing them out.

You said "and was given to me for free with the purchise of his 30 gal aquarium, which i was told was the proper enclosure." Well ...you got had by the pet store... Unfortunatly the Cham is the one who suffers for your lack of proper research. The Pet stores don't care about the health of the animal... They care about making a $... and I am willing to bet anything the reason the gave it to you with the sale of a cage, is because they did not have the proper equipment (screen cages, ect) to sell along with him, so they told you what they had was correct cause they could sense you buying their BS, and would rather get him out of their care before the eye got worse and the finger for poor husbandry get's pointed at them. Happens everyday... In every city... Experienced people know that pet stores are not where to buy your Pets.
3) His mouth open is him begging you to stop man handling him...It doesn't mean he's thirsty... and when You pour running water down his throat you risk killing your Cham by drowning... That is not how they drink.. You shouldn't even spray water directly to their mouths with a bottle... Chameleons drink from rain water accumulated on the leaves, by licking it up... YOU SHOULD NEVER HOLD THEM UNDER A FAUCET FOR THEM TO DRINK... EVER. The way you held him under the sink, and ignored all his desperate attempts to free himself from your force... Is cruel as simple as that. The way you are handling that Cham is just going to make it harder to handle in the future. If you HAVE to handle the Cham, And you can't handle the bite, then wear a glove... Simple... No reason to stress the animal like that.

It is not only that video, and It is not only on YouTube... I think you should know you are being bashed pretty hard core by a lot of big name heads in the Herping community for what happened in this video, and the one with the attempted Breedings. These 2 videos showed up this morning on a Herping Forum and there are over 30 responses on each thread from people all over the country saying how disgusted they are by how that Cham was treated. You are trying to present yourself as a knoweldgeable breeder that people can come to for info... and the fact that this is how you treat your animals, and the lack of knowledge shown in how you keep them, while offering advice to people gets a lot of people in a uproar. If you are going to take that position.... It is your responsiblity to be able to provide the proper info on care to anyone you sell to, as well as provide your own animals with that care.

Please, because you know what was done in this video is wrong, You should remove it as not to perpetuatue bad practice to other keepers who are trying to learn.

Wear a glove, offer a stick, there are a lot of ways that people have learned to manage their pissy Veileds as pissy behavior is more than normal for them... It does not mean they have been neglected. Don't think of them as mammals that you have to break and train to get used to humans... Reptiles are a lot different, Especially Chams... They are to be observed not handled.

I hope I helped to educate you a lil bit more.

Joe

I wanted to make sure he realized that his rep was at risk here... Or actually gone... I actually recieved emails about this from other forums as well... I thought the vid was gone but it wasn't... Hopefully he learns a few things... That vid made me soo angry I had to make sure this guys gets the message.

 

[BocaJan]

Did you say this guy is a member of this forum? Or was it the other one.

 

[SoCaliSon]

I don't believe the guy who posted this video is a member on this forum...
He could use the education though.

 

[SoCaliSon]

He apologized... said thanks for the info... and removed the video. I regret ever seeing that vid, because I have tendency to let stuff like that really bother me... I have never seen such a scared chameleon.

 

[Kat77]

He apologized... said thanks for the info... and removed the video. I regret ever seeing that vid, because I have tendency to let stuff like that really bother me... I have never seen such a scared chameleon.

I am SO glad that you sent him that email. That was exactly what he needed to hear. You ripped him a new one, while giving him a lot of info. WELL DONE!

 

[smyth]

well ive only just come across this thread, tried to look at the video but has been removed, kinda glad in a way from the reactions of u guys it sounds like it was horrific, well done socalison i think it needed somebody to speak out about this and im hoping this guy has learnt his lesson, but what worries me is how many people has he given advice to on handling chams in that way.

 

[CammieNLeno]

Perhaps its a good thing the video was taken down before i could see it, sounds like its really upsetting