Nosy Faly locale is in trouble:(

[Texas Panther Man]

If it really is true then the damage is done.... Theres no going back, you cant remove those individuals now that they have been released and bred with pure falys.... And if its been done what short sighted profit could they have gained by ruining this gorgeous locale. I would have thought they would have wanted to retain the faly locale as it is. Its one of the flashier locales of pardalis in pure form. That just doesnt make sense to me.

 

[Texas Ranger]

If it really is true then the damage is done.... Theres no going back, you cant remove those individuals now that they have been released and bred with pure falys.... And if its been done what short sighted profit could they have gained by ruining this gorgeous locale. I would have thought they would have wanted to retain the faly locale as it is. Its one of the flashier locales of pardalis in pure form. That just doesnt make sense to me.

That's what I am saying there is no gain in posting this just to that the fact that a local is being lost in the wild

 

[Texas Panther Man]

Well I hate to say it but we've opened up pandoras box now.

Now if anyone gets a "unique" wc faly its automatically gonna get the hybrid/cross label thrown at it.

 

[Texas Ranger]

Im definitely not saying anyone here in this thread is trying to do it to fetch higher prices. Withouth knowing who it is one can only speculate what type of person they are.



I just wonder how he can say this one is pure and the other is not. Again, we all see crosses that could be passed off as pures. Also, again, without knowing who the person is those of us can only speculate. Even if there was a name to the thread Im sure I have never delt with them and would still be cautious.

This Faly crap just keeps getting better and better

As for telling you his name find him I did and I don't want to beat the guy up on post because I said his name on a world wide forum.he is a good guy and a friend so why would I do that to him ?

 

[clarkrw3]

I really think the point here and the point the importer was trying to make is that locale comes down to color and head shape (which is what I have been saying too) and that if it doesn't look like the locale should it is NOT that locale. It would seem that this importer is knowledgeable enough that he could see any cham and pretty quickly know if it was pure or not and where it was from. I think that people that spend all day everyday on the Red Island doing what we all wish we could do, have knowledge that far exceeds our understanding.

 

[Echoezra]

Was it mentioned anywhere when exactly this releasing was supposed to have been taking place?
just to be clear,
as far as I can tell you're saying the first picture is the "hybrid" and the rest are all "pure"?
If this is a fact and this introduction actually did happen, officially nothing that comes from the wild can be "pure faly-only-faly" anymore. And unless we know absolutely for certain when the first invasion release happened, we can't know for sure that the original Screameleons faly's were not "impurified" so that means none of us has any "guaranteed pure faly-only-faly's"
(On a side note, In my personal opinion, I feel that differences in appeareance is natural and acceptable. I love when I see pics of wild Nosy Be's with lots of yellow or orange on them. The "approved of and sought after True Blue's" kind of bore me.
Of course now we'll hear that these transfers or infusions have been happening all around Madagascar, for years, and that my pretty wild nosy be's are actually the mixed freaks. Lol. Oh well. Still think they're awesome.)
Maybe we'll have to start thinking of all madagascar chameleons as variable in appearance. More likely to get a certain colour from a certain area but no guarantees. Right now we often buy our choices based not solely on just locale but on certain lines appearance, to give us a higher likelihood of having a similar colour appearance in the offspring. That won't change things in the breeding world. Just maybe knowing that the wild source itself is no longer pure, possibility of crossing with unknown females won't create quite the backlash, and it will in turn relax the need to import wild lines and give the wild time to create a bigger population so that the locals won't feel the need to move them around for appearances sake.

On a side note, not to be a snot or anything, but...
Anybody notice all the yellow in the body stripes of that second ("pure") picture?
(long live Zelig, my "impure" high-yellow faly!! )

 

[Texas Panther Man]

I really think the point here and the point the importer was trying to make is that locale comes down to color and head shape (which is what I have been saying too) and that if it doesn't look like the locale should it is NOT that locale. It would seem that this importer is knowledgeable enough that he could see any cham and pretty quickly know if it was pure or not and where it was from. I think that people that spend all day everyday on the Red Island doing what we all wish we could do, have knowledge that far exceeds our understanding.

Simply going by look and color isnt a scientific way of identifying pure or crossed locale pardalis. He may be able to id MOST of the males by using this method but its not viable for iding females and what about the male that has 90% pure faly blood but 3 generations back his great great grandmother bred with a nosy be? So basically any faly from now on could be disputed as being a crossed locale wc. Even if he LOOKS to be pure.

 

[Echoezra]

Simply going by look and color isnt a scientific way of identifying pure or crossed locale pardalis. He may be able to id MOST of the males by using this method but its not viable for iding females and what about the male that has 90% pure faly blood but 3 generations back his great great grandmother bred with a nosy be? So basically any faly from now on could be disputed as being a crossed locale wc. Even if he LOOKS to be pure.

Exactly. Looks alone are not definitive of what is considered "pure".
I thought "locale" meant "came from that location" or at least originally the ancestors did.
Just like everyone with red hair isn't Irish, or whatever.

 

[clarkrw3]

Ok...I see this thread is going downhill fast.

Please give me the scientific definition of a locale. Science is my field, so lets, if you are going to take this scientific please do. But, don't just throw out the scientific card without research and papers you can quote, and actual scientific proof of your convictions.
Lots of people try and throw around this is scientific and this isn't etc. So lets talk. What makes these locales, what makes them not subspecies, what's the definition of how you specify what constitutes a variation within a locale from an actual different locale. What makes Sirama a sirama and not a ambilobe? Is there a difference? Or is Sirama just another variation of an ambilobe like red bodied ambilobe?

Do we even care about locales at all anymore...you know they are all muddied anyway. I know, I for one, REALLY do care about locales.

 

[Texas Ranger]

The yellowish tent in falys has already been talked about that is not what this thread is about so please keep your BS out of my thread thank you. I want to here what people think not shameless post on what has nothing to do with my thread.

Was it mentioned anywhere when exactly this releasing was supposed to have been taking place?
just to be clear,
as far as I can tell you're saying the first picture is the "hybrid" and the rest are all "pure"?
If this is a fact and this introduction actually did happen, officially nothing that comes from the wild can be "pure faly-only-faly" anymore. And unless we know absolutely for certain when the first invasion release happened, we can't know for sure that the original Screameleons faly's were not "impurified" so that means none of us has any "guaranteed pure faly-only-faly's"
(On a side note, In my personal opinion, I feel that differences in appeareance is natural and acceptable. I love when I see pics of wild Nosy Be's with lots of yellow or orange on them. The "approved of and sought after True Blue's" kind of bore me.
Of course now we'll hear that these transfers or infusions have been happening all around Madagascar, for years, and that my pretty wild nosy be's are actually the mixed freaks. Lol. Oh well. Still think they're awesome.)
Maybe we'll have to start thinking of all madagascar chameleons as variable in appearance. More likely to get a certain colour from a certain area but no guarantees. Right now we often buy our choices based not solely on just locale but on certain lines appearance, to give us a higher likelihood of having a similar colour appearance in the offspring. That won't change things in the breeding world. Just maybe knowing that the wild source itself is no longer pure, possibility of crossing with unknown females won't create quite the backlash, and it will in turn relax the need to import wild lines and give the wild time to create a bigger population so that the locals won't feel the need to move them around for appearances sake.

On a side note, not to be a snot or anything, but...
Anybody notice all the yellow in the body stripes of that second ("pure") picture?
(long live Zelig, my "impure" high-yellow faly!! )

 

[Canny Chams]

theres no point in argueing about it now, as he said, pandoras box has been opened, frankly im good with embracing the change, wether they are crossed or not, they are still beautiful, even if it is a shame that they might have been crossed

EDIT: also, there are far more falys on the island than anything else, so if they do breed with the be's it wont effect the color too much after afew generations, and if they can stop the introduction of other locales, the be bloodlines will be very dilluted

 

[Echoezra]

The yellowish tent in falys has already been talked about that is not what this thread is about so please keep your BS out of my thread thank you. I want to here what people think not shameless post on what has nothing to do with my thread.

Whoah man, BS, really? For starters i'm pretty sure 99% percent of that post WAS me giving an honest opinion about the topic of your thread. Part of it involved the still existing possibility that there is simply some variation in colours even in the supposedly pure specimens. Which is why I pointed out the extra yellow that was different in one pure picture compared to the other pure picture. Don't think it was shameless, just a nice visible coincidence to add to the point I was trying to make. If it was mentioning my own chameleon's colors that you consider shameless, i still claim that it was an On-Topic comment, as I was not only admitting he was probably not pure but that I love him despite the purity or not of his locale but FOR his differences not in spite of them.
All on topic though. So not BS. Kind of uncalled for.
P.S maybe you were misinterpreting my quotations of the word "pure" - it wasn't sarcastic, it was just to distinguish the only-faly-faly's from the possible hybrid faly's.

 

[Texas Ranger]

Whoah man, BS, really? For starters i'm pretty sure 99% percent of that post WAS me giving an honest opinion about the topic of your thread. Part of it involved the still existing possibility that there is simply some variation in colours even in the supposedly pure specimens. Which is why I pointed out the extra yellow that was different in one pure picture compared to the other pure picture. Don't think it was shameless, just a nice visible coincidence to add to the point I was trying to make. If it was mentioning my own chameleon's colors that you consider shameless, i still claim that it was an On-Topic comment, as I was not only admitting he was probably not pure but that I love him despite the purity or not of his locale but FOR his differences not in spite of them.
All on topic though. So not BS. Kind of uncalled for.
P.S maybe you were misinterpreting my quotations of the word "pure" - it wasn't sarcastic, it was just to distinguish the only-faly-faly's from the possible hybrid faly's.

O ok sorry miss understanding on your post I read it wrong... The thread has been going good and do not want it to get closed down on stuff that has already been posted and the threads were closed. Sorry for that lol.

 

[Echoezra]

Nope, I'm not trying to start
any fights or getting any discussions closed here, just involved in the conversation. This is obviously a topic that directly affects me, since I do have a faly myself and also because i have future breeding ambitions that might have involved him.
It definitely angers me to hear that this action might have taken place.
It angers me in general whenever I hear anything about People effing with Nature. But to then get specific to a type of creature I care particularly about, to not only that, but the very very specific type of that specific creature... Well now that really really especially upsets me.
However,
If it (the planned introduction of other locales) HAS actually happened, (and if everyone can confirm that it has by something beyond one person's judgement based on some observed quirks in appearance), and there isn't anything we can do now to change that, I just wanted to clarify that we in the hobby will not be in a position to be picking and choosing and judging by appearance who is pure or impure, but we must instead assume overall that the entire locale has been compromised and move ahead under that assumption.

 

[Texas Ranger]

This is true but at the same time these new looking falys have just showed up as of a year or 2 of the interduction of other locales. So there is still a chance of all of us getting the real deal befor it goes out forever. And breeding per the look we know as faly to keep it around as long as possible.IMO.

 

[mcleodschams]

This is true but at the same time these new looking falys have just showed up as of a year or 2 of the interduction of other locales. So there is still a chance of all of us getting the real deal befor it goes out forever. And breeding per the look we know as faly to keep it around as long as possible.IMO.

well said all we can do is breed what we see as the original faly and keep the look alive

 

[ataraxia]

Im not saying that this is not true. But $$$ could be at play here also.

Wasnt going to post anything but this is EXACTLY what i was thinking.

 

[Texas Ranger]

Wasnt going to post anything but this is EXACTLY what i was thinking.

How can it be about money when they cost the same as all other locales but one.(mitsios) because they are so far away.... Falys are right along the line of locales wanted so exporters like him do not charge more....

 

[ataraxia]

Money money money. The world is consumed by the greed money brings.. Lie, cheat, steal whatever it takes..Naturally i am a pessimist so i dont mean to ruffle any feathers. IMO no one truly knows without seeing it first hand. Unless i see something from multiple studied, photo'd, documented, reputable, non biased sources stating its the case... Sorry man its just the way i am..Im going to naturally wonder just how true it is.

I wasnt going to post as what i was going to type wasnt going to be in favor. My bad if this derails the thread :/

 

[clarkrw3]

This has NOTHING to do with money! This has to do with first hand accounts as to how the islands population of animals has changed. It's someone on the ground that is removing animals that shouldn't be there and hearing from people that put them there in the first place. The problem is you can't remove the female crosses because you don't know they are crossed. At some point you have to look at the animals and say this isn't right for said locale. Something is a miss and be man enough to except that no matter the source if it doesn't look like a locale it isn't, and move on. This guy has been going to Nosy Faly since '89 which is LONG enough to tell what the panthers should look like and see and understand when something isn't right.