No Dusting? All Gutload?

nightanole

Chameleon Enthusiast
Pretty sure you would kill all "staples" with the cal requirement. Cal is a poison to insects. It got the name "gut load" because back in the day the cal would go in one end, but stop up the plumbing and never come out, it loaded the guts.

Hmm but snails, BSF, and silkies...
 

Tihshho

Established Member
Oh definitely can be done. There are ton's of species of Geckos out there, some that are probably not even 100% identified. I wouldn't go as far as saying your little Willsii will be taking down adult day Gecko's, but babies of most species are around an inch to an inch and a half tops. When you get into larger species that are from Madagascar, the babies are about 2.5"-4" so those are going to be a tough meal.
 

Kaizen

Chameleon Enthusiast
I'll say it again here, the obvious answer could be that maybe, just maybe, they are born with the vitamin A to get through their short lifespans. And that maybe ours are living so long in captivity because of our unnatural, but beneficial diets. I have nothing to support this, but IMO it would make sense. Being an all natural/organic/bio crazy kind of guy, I know it can draw us in to think whatever they do in nature must be the best! Truth is, that's not the case many times.
Well said brother. Indeed, the notion that we should be replicating their natural conditions exactly is ludicrous. In nature, 30 babies hatch, 20 get eaten immediately, 5 die of disease, and 5 live to reproduce—presumably, among them will be genes that have imbued them with a higher chance of survival. To perfectly replicate nature, we should buy 30 hatchlings, put them in a giant enclosure with a stray cat, a hawk and some infected poop, and see what happens. Likewise, if our fecal tests show no parasites, we ought to be worried, and scramble to introduce at least pin worms because that’s what happens in nature.
 

nightanole

Chameleon Enthusiast
Well said brother. Indeed, the notion that we should be replicating their natural conditions exactly is ludicrous. In nature, 30 babies hatch, 20 get eaten immediately, 5 die of disease, and 5 live to reproduce—presumably, among them will be genes that have imbued them with a higher chance of survival. To perfectly replicate nature, we should buy 30 hatchlings, put them in a giant enclosure with a stray cat, a hawk and some infected poop, and see what happens. Likewise, if our fecal tests show no parasites, we ought to be worried, and scramble to introduce at least pin worms because that’s what happens in nature.
On the bright side they would all start hatching at once instead of a 1-2week spread :)
 

JackRipper

Established Member
Besides them only eating bite sized baby birds and lizards I'm sure a few of you remember the video I posted of an adult male veiled swallowing a sub-adult cham. Young chams prob eat alot of baby lizards. They will eat anything they can pull in and sometimes I'm sure they're eyes are bigger than their stomachs. Feeding them only food items no bigger than the space in between their eyes is a very human safety precaution. These chams are like pythons lol
 

Tihshho

Established Member
Let me just make something clear, I'm not trying to 100% replicate nature as it's impossible. CBB species of anything live in more controlled, and hopefully better conditions in their captive environment than in the wild. I'm just trying to find out the missing piece of what goes on in the wild to see if it can be used to find another solution rather than just dusting.
 

Kaizen

Chameleon Enthusiast
Let me just make something clear, I'm not trying to 100% replicate nature as it's impossible. CBB species of anything live in more controlled, and hopefully better conditions in their captive environment than in the wild. I'm just trying to find out the missing piece of what goes on in the wild to see if it can be used to find another solution rather than just dusting.
Sorry, I did t mean to come across as arguing against your point at all. Nor did I take you as arguing that we should replicate nature exactly—but some people do say this, and my comments were for them. Indeed, I think figuring out how not to have to dust and still raise up healthy reproducing chams ought to be a goal for all of us, so I applaud your efforts.
 

jamest0o0

Chameleon Enthusiast
Sorry, I did t mean to come across as arguing against your point at all. Nor did I take you as arguing that we should replicate nature exactly—but some people do say this, and my comments were for them. Indeed, I think figuring out how not to have to dust and still raise up healthy reproducing chams ought to be a goal for all of us, so I applaud your efforts.
Yup, this is what I was saying too. My post wasn't aimed at anyone in particular, more of a general statement. Even a reminder for myself as well.

Not arguing, but what's wrong with dusting anyway? Hell, I eat dust myself when I take multivitamins, sprinkle spirulina, and other random stuff in shakes. Not sure how much it helps, but doesn't seem to hurt either.
 

Tihshho

Established Member
It hit me a few days ago that Calcium in general is a dangerous thing to be messing with. How I dust might not be how someone else dusts so I don't see it as 'measurable' so I'd like to find a path that is. The only path I can see this being somewhat natural is to work with the food sources the cham's get in their natural habitat.

One thing I have been reviewing as mainly a Triceros owner are the introduced species in the various Hawaiian islands. In order for them to be able to reproduce they have to be getting somewhat of a healthy diet. The areas that they come from I've seen what they could be eating and can somewhat deduce their sources of calcium, but that's only for one species not all.
 

Kaizen

Chameleon Enthusiast
It hit me a few days ago that Calcium in general is a dangerous thing to be messing with. How I dust might not be how someone else dusts so I don't see it as 'measurable' so I'd like to find a path that is. The only path I can see this being somewhat natural is to work with the food sources the cham's get in their natural habitat.

One thing I have been reviewing as mainly a Triceros owner are the introduced species in the various Hawaiian islands. In order for them to be able to reproduce they have to be getting somewhat of a healthy diet. The areas that they come from I've seen what they could be eating and can somewhat deduce their sources of calcium, but that's only for one species not all.
Just to follow this up, I seem to remember Petr necas saying that most of the wild Hawaii Jackson’s live with a chronic low level of mbd. Something about horn deformities. Anyways, I can’t remember where I read/heard this.
 

kinyonga

Chameleon Enthusiast
@Tihshho said...."Fish Flake Food (dry - I get whatever is on sale and mix the flake fish food with the Dubia rations)...be careful of possible fat souble vitamins in fish food that might cause problems in chameleons.
@Tihshho ...You commented about calcium being dangerous too...in what way?

@JackRipper said re smaller chameleon species...."They don't have the same calcium requirements as larger crown or canopy sprcies"...I'd be interested in knowing why this would be true...same for hatchlings...do they just rely on what they were born with?

@Kaizen said that Petr Necas made comments recently about Hawaiian Jacksons chameleons ...It was posted here...
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/night-temp-important.53904/#post-1532102

@Tihshho said..."In order for them to be able to reproduce they have to be getting somewhat of a healthy diet"...that's what I've always thought.
 
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Tihshho

Established Member
@Tihshho said...."Fish Flake Food (dry - I get whatever is on sale and mix the flake fish food with the Dubia rations)...be careful of possible fat souble vitamins in fish food that might cause problems in chameleons.
Hrm, I'll have to look into this more. I bet if I give the roaches a few days purge time prior with other foods this issue should be null.

@Tihshho ...You commented about calcium being dangerous too...in what way?
It's been proven in other species that high amounts of calcium can wreck havoc on an animals kidney and cardiovascular system. Since we can't specify a quantifiable dose when dusting, I'd be concerned about Cham's getting to a 'ripe old age' happening faster than it should.

@Tihshho said..."In order for them to be able to reproduce they have to be getting somewhat of a healthy diet"...that's what I've always thought.
There has to be some truth to that in some way. I wouldn't be surprised if calcium issues with the Hawaiian species also has to do with a lack of a gene pool.
 

kinyonga

Chameleon Enthusiast
@Tihshho said..."It's been proven in other species that high amounts of calcium can wreck havoc on an animals kidney and cardiovascular system. Since we can't specify a quantifiable dose when dusting, I'd be concerned about Cham's getting to a 'ripe old age' happening faster than it should"... But what's the greater risk...under dosing the calcium because we don't dust and ending up with MBD or overdosing the calcium because we dust too heavily and ending up with renal/cardiovascular issues? I've been dusting for years lightly and my female veileds for example almost always live to be 7 and the males even longer.
 
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