New Quads! Imported Feb/15

[Mike Fisher]

People commented about the choice of plastic--no, commented isn't the right word: most told me I was doing it wrong--and I explained my (thought-out) rationale for my choice.

I don't remember anyone telling you were doing it wrong. I know a few people on here I would consider experts on montane husbandry. You have been dismissive towards them. Ultimately they are your animals to do as you wish.

 

[Mike Fisher]

Do you use ABG mix for your planting substrate? It drains great

I just use a 50:50 mix of peat moss:sand over hydroton clay balls.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Janet,

Honestly I was a bit discouraged to see you jump in with so many wild-caught animals, and I think that others probably were as well.

Don't be. I will do whatever it takes to make it right for these animals. I am a very observant person and won't hesitate consult with a vet (or two or three) over a problem or perceived problem.

Having a vet helping you is a great start though!

I have more than one vet. I have my local avian vet who has a large reptile practice. I also have a very dear friend in the Middle East who runs a big conservation /wildlife facility for the first or second in line to the throne. He enjoys helping me--I think because I make him laugh. We go back a long way. He is the Chairman of Education and Residency Committee for the European College of Zoological Medicine. He was a research fellow at at the Zoological Society of London where he did research projects with reptiles (and birds of course). He's written veterinary texts on avian medicine and exotic medicine. He presents all over the world. Most of his work centers around breeding Gyr falcons in Abu Dhabi for His Royal Highness to hunt with the following year. Gyr falcons are a migratory bird that breed in the Arctic and winter in South America. He breeds them in the Middle East which is pretty incredible. One of his advanced degrees is in avian reproduction. So, rest assured, I have a lot of veterinary support. None of my support have kept quads, though, and I have had them for only 41 days. I don't even know what "normal" looks like.

Good luck
__________________
Kevin

 

[fluxlizard]

I suspect I could modify my cages and buy a bunch of doors for them if I can't deal with the humidity levels, but to be honest, I think I'll be okay. People in Southern California are keeping them and I get substantially more rain than they do--almost three times their average amount.

If they need the temps lower than the 78F I keep my house at in the summer--especially at night--I can always buy an a/c unit for the window of my office where they are housed.

Yeah- my recommendation for limiting the ventilation with glass enclosures was to help with AC pulling humidity out of the air in the room. The glass tanks limit the airflow and trap humidity inside creating a microclimate different from the room. It sounds like probably the AC will be necessary and if it is, it won't matter how much it rains outside, in the AC room it will be a different world than on the other side of the wall.

I'm not familiar with the dragon strand band cages design but sounds like you have a good contingency plan with swapping out the doors.

 

[fluxlizard]

Don't be. I will do whatever it takes to make it right for these animals. I am a very observant person and won't hesitate consult with a vet (or two or three) over a problem or perceived problem.

This is a good attitude, but often vets learn from hobbyists about husbandry and what works over the long term. Probability that your vet knows more about quads than some in this thread is pretty low, although it flips the other way around for urgent medical care and that sort of thing.

Sometimes it isn't a simple matter of willingness to do whatever it takes, but ability to solve mysteries with only a few facts and hunches and a bit of trial and error while the clock ticks. And sometimes it is down to how adaptable the individual lizard wants to be.

 

[jajeanpierre]

This is a good attitude, but often vets learn from hobbyists about husbandry and what works over the long term. Probability that your vet knows more about quads than some in this thread is pretty low, although it flips the other way around for urgent medical care and that sort of thing.

Sometimes it isn't a simple matter of willingness to do whatever it takes, but ability to solve mysteries with only a few facts and hunches and a bit of trial and error while the clock ticks. And sometimes it is down to how adaptable the individual lizard wants to be.

I understand that, but those are the resources I have. Before I bought these animals I was assured by a few of the quad experts that I would have lots of help. I was encouraged to be involved. Maybe they are a little taken aback by how deeply I get involved in projects I take on. If a few of the quad keepers change their advice based on how they currently feel about me or my uppity attitude or simply refuse to answer direct questions about dealing with a condition that they gladly share with Little Leaf, I guess I'm on my own. I'm a a big girl, I'll cope. Fortunately my vet friend in the Middle East has wildlife degrees, so he's a step up from the usual exotic vet.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Yeah- my recommendation for limiting the ventilation with glass enclosures was to help with AC pulling humidity out of the air in the room. The glass tanks limit the airflow and trap humidity inside creating a microclimate different from the room. It sounds like probably the AC will be necessary and if it is, it won't matter how much it rains outside, in the AC room it will be a different world than on the other side of the wall.

I'm not familiar with the dragon strand band cages design but sounds like you have a good contingency plan with swapping out the doors.

These are the cages I'll be using. The owner designed them and is one of the "quad collective" who has helped me tremendously.

http://dragonstrand.com/

I asked my husband about the amount of humidity that would be pulled out of the air by the a/c. He didn't think that it would be all that much (he's a chemical engineer). If it gets to be a problem, I can always put something up over the door or part of the door. It's fixable and I'm sure I'll know I have a problem. The problems are only for four months or so, anyway.

It is a concern, for sure.

 

[rshewfel]

That is absolutely unfair and untrue.

I posted a series of pictures of my new quads and more experienced keepers commented on the plastic plants, suggesting live ones. I explained why I was using plastic plants in the cage of baby quads (12g to 15g). Some long-term keepers also use plastic plants when they have animals they are quarantining. (I repotted a little Parlor Palm and put it in the babies' cage, so the discussion wasn't for naught.)

I choose not to use Pothos and my experienced reptile vet also agrees with that choice. None of those decisions were made in a vacuum. I thought about it. I even bought a Pothos that I didn't put in any of the cages. None of those decisions are a big deal as far as husbandry practices go except the worry about hydration for the babies.

Those two issues, I believe, are the only issues about my husbandry practices that any long-term keeper might question.

As far as voicing some support for the importer, I don't want to go there, but a lot of libelous and slanderous statements were floating around spoken and written by people who had no direct knowledge of the importer or the deal in question. What I read about the importer on this forum was not my personal experience with him or his store, so I recounted my experiences. I thought this group was being very unfair to a small-business person. It took a very short period of time before the "quad collective" was satisfied with their deal. At least one member of the "quad collective" has purchased more specimens from this current shipment.

I have asked for and taken the advice of experienced quad keepers. Some of the advice I've been given has been quite different from other advice so I've put the opposing opinion out there for discussion.

When I bought my first quad, completely unaware of what I was buying--like most novice keepers--there never was a question of whether or not I would be able to set up an environment for this lovely animal to thrive and flourish in Texas. The temperatures in my house were never an issue. One experienced quad keeper was even talking of getting me a baby girl for my boy during our long phone conversations.

Suddenly when I have the audacity to up and buy four pairs of quads--the nerve of that uppity novice!--and expect to set them up in a breeding situation, they are doomed to die because I live in Texas. On and on and on and on.

I do understand that it might bother long-term keepers that a complete novice would put together a group of 4 pairs of wild-caught quads. People come and go in this hobby. You don't know me and you don't know much of my experience outside of chameleons.

I haven't paid my dues and that must really tick a lot of people off. Unfortunately, people paying dues are paying them with chameleon lives and for the sake of these lovely animals, I would much rather not learn the hard way. Silo building only hurts the animals.

You don't have to help me. You can make all the snarky comments you like. You can celebrate any failures I have. Will I succeed? I don't know, I'll give it my best shot and throw as much money as I need to at any problems to make them go away.

I could care less how many quads you buy, or if you keep them in Texas. I also did not like the way the whole quad situation was handled. If I thought for 1 second that I could help you, or that you would even listen to any advice I have, I would gladly give it. With all that said, my comment was not snarky. Your comments were intended to be passive aggressive, in order to irritate forum members, because of your displeasure over the treatment of the importer. All I did was point out to other members what you are doing.