Naturalistic Diet

[cyberlocc]

I did see this @snitz427 about the Lady beetles.

"As well as the usual yellow and deep red colourings, many coccinellid species are mostly, or entirely, black, dark grey, gray, or brown, and may be difficult for non-entomologists to recognise as coccinellids at all. "

That changes a lot of stuff. So some of these are not even insectivores. Some eat plants, ect.

 

[CasqueAbove]

I did see this @snitz427 about the Lady beetles.

"As well as the usual yellow and deep red colourings, many coccinellid species are mostly, or entirely, black, dark grey, gray, or brown, and may be difficult for non-entomologists to recognise as coccinellids at all. "

That changes a lot of stuff. So some of these are not even insectivores. Some eat plants, ect.

This is why I say they are like mushrooms, better be sure.

 

[snitz427]

Ive also read their coloration correlates to their level of toxicity. The brightest being the most toxic, but what of the black and brown? I’ll be doing my reading, for sure. I dont plan to offer them as a feeder, but I do free range the chams in the GH on occasion.

 

[PetNcs]

I am looking at the coastal mountain range in from Al Hudaydah. I do not know Yemen at all this was my best guess.

This is the satalite I am using.
https://satellites.pro/Yemen_map#14.708146,43.121681,11

It is interesting, they have wayyy better imagery in this region compared to google and current weather that adjusts to where you are looking.

Ypu are mistaken
They do NOT live there at all

They do not inhabit the coastal plains, they live high in the Hijaz Mountains

The best reference points are the cities Ibb and Yarim

 

[PetNcs]

I am looking at the coastal mountain range in from Al Hudaydah. I do not know Yemen at all this was my best guess.

This is the satalite I am using.
https://satellites.pro/Yemen_map#14.708146,43.121681,11

It is interesting, they have wayyy better imagery in this region compared to google and current weather that adjusts to where you are looking.

 

[PetNcs]

As I'm not sure of a mantid population or the size of them in Hawaii, @PetNcs have you seen Chameleons take to Mantids in the wild? Ghost Mantids? African Gambits? What kind if you know?

i refuse to discuss the Hawaii as benchmark for feeding habits of chameleons
I also am ready to shsre my experience but do kot want to be againaccused from specullations and non-peer-reviewed statements

I have never seen a chameleon feeding naturally to on Mantis in the wild
I have found mantis remnants only very rarely in the faeces, especially in species descending to grass level, not those living high in the canopies
If offered a mantis, I have seen almost hysteric reactions of wild chameleons catching them vigorously and willingly, same readiness to eat as flying insects, ifnoffered in a way that rhey csn see them clearly, while ai have not seen reaction like this if they sit inconspicuously in the vegetation and rely on their crypsis

IMHO, and I explicitely state it is a speculation, tjis observation patterns can be possibly explained by two reasons:
1. mantis are in comparison to other eaten insects relatively rare,
2. mantis are very wrlm csmouflaged n their natural biotope and xhameleons can have issues with them that they can not see them simply unless they get out of the crypsis and become conspicuous

 

[Redman]

As a hobbyist offering freshly hatched mantis to hatchling f. pardalis for the first time, this topic is of specific interest to me.

I do, indeed, like to know what the different species are experiencing in their natural habitat, so I thank all of you that share this information very much!

The challenge, as has been stated in these forums, is:
How does a hobbiest (and there are many different levels of skill, education, and financial ability) provide for their animals to give them the best health possible within their means and what is readily available to them?

I personally have a hard time providing the variety of insect species that I feel would be best for my chameleons, due in part to my urban location. I am ALWAYS on the lookout for new options and ideas that could work for me (and won't land me in divorce court!).

I would welcome more documents that explores this and provides several answers/options for dealing with each challenge.
That way, we could point newcomers and those with issues or problems with husbandry to said document as a starting point in their research. (Yes, I know we have several good ones already! I would love to see more!)

Most, if not all, of this information is here already and can be found by those who are willing to do a bit of digging for it. There are also those who take the time to share information and experience, which is invaluable and so appreciated. Then there are those who take the time to share scientific research and research documents. To me, this is a bit of heaven. I absolutely love to dig into the research resources and dig as far as time allows to learn a bit more about these fascinating creatures. In a perfect world, I would be able to do pure research and spend all of my time researching and experimenting. But unfortunately, there are tasks to do and bills to pay. So, my love of such has to stay in the realm of hobby.

Congratulations to those of you who found a way to make it a major part of your life. Please just remember that those of us who are not quite so fortunate come from all different countries, socio-economic groups, and educational levels. But our passion for caring for our pets binds us all together.

Wow, sorry about that. I really shouldn't post when I'm tired!

<getting off the proverbial soap-box podium>

 

[PetNcs]

As a hobbyist offering freshly hatched mantis to hatchling f. pardalis for the first time, this topic is of specific interest to me.

I do, indeed, like to know what the different species are experiencing in their natural habitat, so I thank all of you that share this information very much!

The challenge, as has been stated in these forums, is:
How does a hobbiest (and there are many different levels of skill, education, and financial ability) provide for their animals to give them the best health possible within their means and what is readily available to them?

I personally have a hard time providing the variety of insect species that I feel would be best for my chameleons, due in part to my urban location. I am ALWAYS on the lookout for new options and ideas that could work for me (and won't land me in divorce court!).

I would welcome more documents that explores this and provides several answers/options for dealing with each challenge.
That way, we could point newcomers and those with issues or problems with husbandry to said document as a starting point in their research. (Yes, I know we have several good ones already! I would love to see more!)

Most, if not all, of this information is here already and can be found by those who are willing to do a bit of digging for it. There are also those who take the time to share information and experience, which is invaluable and so appreciated. Then there are those who take the time to share scientific research and research documents. To me, this is a bit of heaven. I absolutely love to dig into the research resources and dig as far as time allows to learn a bit more about these fascinating creatures. In a perfect world, I would be able to do pure research and spend all of my time researching and experimenting. But unfortunately, there are tasks to do and bills to pay. So, my love of such has to stay in the realm of hobby.

Congratulations to those of you who found a way to make it a major part of your life. Please just remember that those of us who are not quite so fortunate come from all different countries, socio-economic groups, and educational levels. But our passion for caring for our pets binds us all together.

Wow, sorry about that. I really shouldn't post when I'm tired!

<getting off the proverbial soap-box podium>

i more than by 100% understand your position and a mission of mine is to bring oeiple to Africa and Arabia and Madagascar and let them experience how chameleons live in the wild so that they can rake a wise decision on how to care for them the best possible way in the captivity. A combination of dry scientific data together with real experience is IMHO the best guidance for it. Stick with dry science and artificial environment is very risky, often missing many points.
With people like ypu I am gladly ready to shsre the results of my more than 30yesrs of love, wild and captive experiemce with those fascinating creatures...

 

[cyberlocc]

i more than by 100% understand your position and a mission of mine is to bring oeiple to Africa and Arabia and Madagascar and let them experience how chameleons live in the wild so that they can rake a wise decision on how to care for them the best possible way in the captivity. A combination of dry scientific data together with real experience is IMHO the best guidance for it. Stick with dry science and artificial environment is very risky, often missing many points.
With people like ypu I am gladly ready to shsre the results of my more than 30yesrs of love, wild and captive experiemce with those fascinating creatures...

Part of the issue Petr, is no matter what we see. Some things are just not able to be recreated.

We can do some, there is some insects we can include that are natural, for some of the more advanced folks, that are prepared to go to those lenghts.

However mist keepers, have not the time, the resources or the means to do so.

There has to be, there has to be adaptions based on circumstances.

 

[PetNcs]

Part of the issue Petr, is no matter what we see. Some things are just not able to be recreated.

We can do some, there is some insects we can include that are natural, for some of the more advanced folks, that are prepared to go to those lenghts.

However mist keepers, have not the time, the resources or the means to do so.

There has to be, there has to be adaptions based on circumstances.

Absolutely true
We will never cerate a buöb simulating sun, never feed the natural diet etc wtc
But we must try to get closer

 

[Redman]

I may be a terrible person for this, but I couldn't help thinking of ...

Yeah, I know I shouldn't but...

 

[cyberlocc]

Absolutely true
We will never cerate a buöb simulating sun, never feed the natural diet etc wtc
But we must try to get closer

Actually we are getting pretty close to recreating sunlight with LEDs. I have some stuff to do today, but I will tag you in that thread in a bit.

I'm sure you will like these LEDs alot.

 

[PetNcs]

Actually we are getting pretty close to recreating sunlight with LEDs. I have some stuff to do today, but I will tag you in that thread in a bit.

I'm sure you will like these LEDs alot.

You recreate only spectrum, but not the beam
Anyway, intensity of light is diminishing with the square of distance, so it will inevitably remain unnaturally structured in space: very intense st the source and dropping intensity downwards

 

[cyberlocc]

Ypu recreate only spectrum, but not the brma
Anyway, intensity of light is dininishing with the squate of distance, so it will inevitably remain unnaturally structured in space

Brma?

Ya it's never going to be exact, but we can get alot closer than we are. From a spectrum standpoint, a flipping lights on and off unnaturally standpoint, and a brightness standpoint.

Using CoBs, especially if they add UVB soon to the array, we can move position as well.

 

[PetNcs]

Brma?

Ya it's never going to be exact, but we can get alot closer than we are. From a spectrum standpoint, a flipping lights on and off unnaturally standpoint, and a brightness standpoint.

Using CoBs, especially if they add UVB soon to the array, we can move position as well.

true
I corrected the spellings
It should have been BEAM

after fougjt for pollen and dust and night humidity and fog, the not enough intense ligjt in most cages is a further issue. Hard to solve anyway, as technically, it is impossible

 

[cyberlocc]

true
I corrected the spellings
It should have been BEAM

after fougjt for pollen and dust and night humidity and fog, the not enough intense ligjt in most cages is a further issue. Hard to solve anyway, as technically, it is impossible

We can get pretty close, I mean we could get sun brightness but no one would want the power bill lololol.


I agree, and was going to say that. A lot of keepers cages IMO are very poorly lit.

I have 50k lux at the basking spot. Which is still only bright shade, but better than most.

However that's only on my big Viv. And definitely not doable on a large scale. My large cage, with the basking lights, the UVB and the LEDs I am pulling almost 400ws, not alot of folks would do that.

And even with 400ws 50k lux is a far cry from the 80-100k on a bright day in the wild.

 

[CasqueAbove]

So guess I am back in sort of.

I had thought about the various data, and came up with some thought.

1. Do Chameleons in the wild seek specific food, or is purely based on opportunity.

2. If it is opportunity based, they must eat some toxic insects. Do they poses a higher resistance to these toxins?
It would be a good adaption for an animal that can not let an opportunity of food pass.

3. The vast verity of insects and others, suggests that they can adapt to their surroundings and the food at hand.

We know the importance of the proper nutrient balance, but with nutrient supplementation how important is variety?

One of the pieces that is left out is lighting, and the role it plays in being able to process nutrients. This is one area I am very curious about.

 

[PetNcs]

We can get pretty close, I mean we could get sun brightness but no one would want the power bill lololol.


I agree, and was going to say that. A lot of keepers cages IMO are very poorly lit.

I have 50k lux at the basking spot. Which is still only bright shade, but better than most.

However that's only on my big Viv. And definitely not doable on a large scale. My large cage, with the basking lights, the UVB and the LEDs I am pulling almost 400ws, not alot of folks would do that.

And even with 400ws 50k lux is a far cry from the 80-100k on a bright day in the wild.

we need to take into consideration that most time chameleons anyway sit in shade and are not exposed to full sun all the time
So the question is where to set thw reality...
very likely it should be approx same as on sun at basking spot (80-100kLux) and approx same as in the right shade in the shade of the natural plants (40-50kLux) ...

 

[PetNcs]

So guess I am back in sort of.

I had thought about the various data, and came up with some thought.

1. Do Chameleons in the wild seek specific food, or is purely based on opportunity.

2. If it is opportunity based, they must eat some toxic insects. Do they poses a higher resistance to these toxins?
It would be a good adaption for an animal that can not let an opportunity of food pass.

3. The vast verity of insects and others, suggests that they can adapt to their surroundings and the food at hand.

We know the importance of the proper nutrient balance, but with nutrient supplementation how important is variety?

One of the pieces that is left out is lighting, and the role it plays in being able to process nutrients. This is one area I am very curious about.

you ask valid questions and rhey are very jard ro answer
Noone knows the exact answer because not enough research is done and bexause ypu ask it. Lack and white a bit and the answers will very likely not be black and white

IMHO (I specullate based on my experience)

1. Chameleons do not seek specific food, their diet is a ailabikity/oportunity based but they do not eat anything, they eat what they get in the microbiotipes they occupy

2. The conclusion is false. They do not need to, but they evidentky do in new territories. So, I would rather say the do not wat toxic insects they have evikutionary experience with: many species refuse black and violet beetles, catydids, orange butterflies, red beetles and stink bugs. I would not be surprized if they would show a slightly higher reaustance to animal toxins than other reptiles (and bird and mammals), in plant toxins, it is like this (they tollerate toxins of Sansevieria, Ficus, Euphorbia, eupremnum...) but this does not explicitely mean animal toxin tollerance automatically. They do eat cathdids, toxic beetles and toxic seeds (such as brazilian peppertree in Florida) but we di not know in what extent it kills them.

3. Very likely. However, I do not agree based on my research with the varied diet. As a rule, the food composition of a chameleon if looked at its fecal sample is surprizingly poor. The higher they kive the poorer as a tendency, the lower,
i guess that one of rhe extremely favorable balancing factors is the pollen, rhat contains almost everythig ifnit comes to nutrients and can ballancr the otherwise poor or
Monotonous food

ligjt as natural energy plays definitely role in metabolism, the notorious example is the participation ofnUV on the metabolism of acalcium catakyzed by Vitamin D... and there will be more for sure.

 

[CasqueAbove]

you ask valid questions and rhey are very jard ro answer
Noone knows the exact answer because not enough research is done and bexause ypu ask it. Lack and white a bit and the answers will very likely not be black and white

IMHO (I specullate based on my experience)

1. Chameleons do not seek specific food, their diet is a ailabikity/oportunity based but they do not eat anything, they eat what they get in the microbiotipes they occupy

2. The conclusion is false. They do not need to, but they evidentky do in new territories. So, I would rather say the do not wat toxic insects they have evikutionary experience with: many species refuse black and violet beetles, catydids, orange butterflies, red beetles and stink bugs. I would not be surprized if they would show a slightly higher reaustance to animal toxins than other reptiles (and bird and mammals), in plant toxins, it is like this (they tollerate toxins of Sansevieria, Ficus, Euphorbia, eupremnum...) but this does not explicitely mean animal toxin tollerance automatically. They do eat cathdids, toxic beetles and toxic seeds (such as brazilian peppertree in Florida) but we di not know in what extent it kills them.

3. Very likely. However, I do not agree based on my research with the varied diet. As a rule, the food composition of a chameleon if looked at its fecal sample is surprizingly poor. The higher they kive the poorer as a tendency, the lower,
i guess that one of rhe extremely favorable balancing factors is the pollen, rhat contains almost everythig ifnit comes to nutrients and can ballancr the otherwise poor or
Monotonous food

ligjt as natural energy plays definitely role in metabolism, the notorious example is the participation ofnUV on the metabolism of acalcium catakyzed by Vitamin D... and there will be more for sure.

Your logic makes good sense. I guess they would have to avoid at least some of the most toxic.

I realize the difficulty in evaluate all this.

I always thought it would be cool to have a central database for a forum like this. I do not expect people prick their cham for blood. But say the results from vet visits, along with the statistics of light type, average distance from light, and the type amount/administration method of vitamins. It would be interesting to see what we came up with.


Specifically I am speaking of Veiled, which as I understand can inhabit a wide range. Which brings me to another thought.

What is the cognitive ability ?

I have definitely seen mine learn. So back to the point of food. How readily can they learn new thing that will help them.

For example mine recognize their food dish, they no what it means. So would a wild chameleon learn the best places to hunt.

I believe it is you studying them ? It would be interesting to see the dropping from a single chameleon over the course of a year.