@CasqueAbove when your talking about light and its ability to process nutrients...there's a difference from the light and the heat from the light affecting the nutrient processing/use IMHO.
Naturalistic Diet
- Thread starter cyberlocc
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CasqueAbove
Chameleon Enthusiast
So I should focus on this area correct ?
CasqueAbove
Chameleon Enthusiast
quite possibly, this is part of the question. They do need heat for digestion.
Digestion or catabolism is partly the mechanical digestion of food that occurs in the mouth when it is physically broken up into smaller pieces and then there's the chemical digestion that happens in the gastrointestinal tract where the food is broken down by digestive enzymes so the nutrients can be used by the body....temperature plays a part in this part of the digestion.
Light on the skin...cholesterol aids in the production of D3... I don't think the light has anything to do with other nutrients.
Light on the skin...cholesterol aids in the production of D3... I don't think the light has anything to do with other nutrients.
jamest0o0
Chameleon Enthusiast
Does anyone else feel that bee pollen is an overrated supplement? I used to be all about it. Now that I'm putting more thought into where my money goes(out of necessity lol) I'm reading a little more into everything. Bee pollen is basically just a weak multivitamin that is difficult to digest(apparently). Now maybe chameleons digest it better, but I'd be skeptical of that. Probably no harm using it and maybe beneficial, but I'm pretty much convinced ATM that the best thing you can do for your cham is offer a large variety of feeders that feed on all sorts of different things while dusting with calcium and whatever other necessary nutrients for your situation(vit A, d3)
cyberlocc
Chameleon Enthusiast
So I see some personal concern, with Bee Pollen, in that form. However there is also some positives too it in that form.
However, I have to admit, I am less skeptical of it now than I use to be.
After we looked, pretty in depth of the feeders in that other thread. There is a lot of pollinators in there, as Petr has pointed out. I was not sure prior, as the old list I seen and was using had less pinpoint familys.
I still think, that maybe Flower Pollen, is something we should be looking into. However in the case of gutload maybe we can improve on pollens digestion. I seen when looking at it earlier, that boiling it helps humans digest it.
So my current thought, and was going to bring this up to you about our HQFBs. A Bee Pollen, boiled down into an Agar Agar to form a "Beetle Jelly" maybe with some nectar mixed in, would provide a more natural diet to the beetles, one that could also be used as a water source or wetload for other insects as well. That would likely be a closer to natural for the Chameleon Gutload for the insects.
The Fermentation of the Bee pollen, vs flower pollen, may allow it to keep longer. Adding a little Orange Juice to the mix could also help with this.
jamest0o0
Chameleon Enthusiast
I don't disagree. I imagine they eat a good deal of pollinators and I also have no problem with someone using bee pollen. Just that I don't see anything inherently special about it other than being a natural multivitamin. With well rounded gutload and feeder variety, chams would probably be getting more than enough nutrients. In the wild where there isn't as much gutload variety(although more feeders I bet) the pollen probably comes in handy for them. So just thinking that it might not be as necessary of a supplement as we've been making it out to be. That said, I'm sure it has it's uses. Like the jelly you just mentioned.
PetNcs
Chameleon Enthusiast
They definitely recognize the most toxic ones but ONLY in the case that they occur in their homecountry, otherwise not
it is really hard to evaluate, these are somdetailed tipics rhat jardly anyone eves will have money to invest in such research as it is hardly having big or/and financial impact, and you need lotsmof time and equipment to find out something very fragmentary...
with the general level of VET care, where single VETs around the globe do great service and vast majority (based on cases I have to solve) do terrible mistakes, do not know anatomy, physiology, can not identify parasites properly neither treat them accordingly, treat and make analysis just to milk money from the owner regardless whether it is meaningful or not etc etc... such database would have a very limited use as we would not know what data are valid and what not...
What do you mean with “veiled can inhabit wide range”... does it refer ti their adaptability and hardiness?
Their ability to learn is rather basic as their brain is not developed to do complex operations. Yes they can learn but not too much.
Their “learning” happens basically ontogenetically and phylogenetically.
During ontogeny, they learn simplemthings like where itnis comfortable and where not where lots of food is lresent and where not etc. and rhey can learn form discomfort if it applies immediately, as intoxication happening with long delay they can not link with the event of feeding, same as humans not always know what they have been poisoned by in food... so, if the food is “bitter” or it burns when seized and chewed, they might learn not to eat it otherwise not.
phylogenetically they learn in basic Darwinistic logic: those that eat poisonous food do not survive and do not tranfer their genes that played a tole in this event to the future generations (it can be very soecific or it can be a tendency to stay at certain places, select special color or form of food etc etc.)
Frankky, it would be interesting to have a series if drippings from one xhameleon yearly but such a study would nit bring much. I anticipate we would find out the chameleon feeds on what is available on the spots where it will be present... i am not capanlenof doing such research as I do not live permanently where chameleons occur. Also, I would rather focus on more important questions than this even if...
PetNcs
Chameleon Enthusiast
I do not like specullations about boiling pollen as it will inevitable totally destroy many of its vauable components and is absolutely unnatural.
the logic is simple:
1. regardless what published (incidental and scarce) sources say, based in my 30yrs plus experience, pollinators are eaten readily and daily by most of the middle and bigger sized chameleons. Some fecal samples contain them exclusively, majority of samples of C calyptratus and T melleri and C monachus and many others contain them predominantly.
2. Pollinators contain pollen in two forms:
A. on teir bodies (as natural pollen dust or slightly modified mixed with salivae and nectar of bees in form of granules, which they wear to the hive on their legs)
B. In their intestines in different stages of its digestion
therefore, I advocate to replicate what Mother Nature exposes them to for millions of years and study and utilize this potential!
I have noone that based on my advice started to use pollen to report on ANY negative side effects, on contrary, a vast majority of people use pollen not only as supplement but as a natural treatment of diseases and that with great success. My longest living calyptratus were exceeding 12yrs and they have been fed with pollen daily (not a proof but indication) and I have seen in the tents of thousands of captive snimals I habe produced and studied an absolute minute level of diseases. I am firmly convinced, pollen is one of the factors that caused this. I have not done extensive studies on NOT feeding pollen as I consider it unethical amd wrong NOT TO PROVIDE a vital factor to animals. It would be an absurd experiment for me same as how to proove a horse will die if not given grass and a sparrow would die if not provided water...
i am hesitant to accept any meaningless experiments to cook and add citrus juices and all this unnatiral and totally unjustified stuff:
Were in nature pollen is boiled?
Where in nature there is citrus juice added to boiled (or even fresh) pollen? And eaten by pollinatirs? First, citrus trees are very rare in Yemen where Calyptratus live
Second, they are almost all introduced there by humans
Third: see a mangotree and a citrus tree with fallen fruits underneath: the abundance of polinatirs feeding on it will differ by thousands of percent: too acidic citrus fruits are not loved by insects...
i really do not get the logic of why to doubt something that is present for millions of years, simple,natural, easy to obtain, cheap, easy to feed (pollen)
And immediately start to go for unnatiral and fir me even absurd artificial constructs of boiling and technilogizazion without any base rather than curiosity or whatever unanderstandable for me
What sense does it make to add agarose and agaropectin in big ammounts for bugs to eat to be swallowed and eaten by chameleons? Absurd construct for me
Absolutely unnatural
Why are we so much ready always to start to outsmart the Mother Nature even before we make a real attempt just to listen to it and understand?
Why we do not simply replicate what is soooooo simple and want instead do one artificial and unnatural step after each otjer?
Boiling - unnatural
Adding citrus juices - unnatural
Adding agar agar - unnatural
Why this?! I am really stranded.
I do notmunderstand
I do not agree
I am against
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PetNcs
Chameleon Enthusiast
Are younserious?
Beetles eat pollen amd nectar
And you are serious to state that you recon that
Boiled components mixed witb agar agar would provide a more natural diet?
I am really lost
PetNcs
Chameleon Enthusiast
Light has various vawe lengths and is to be considered as a complex and in seoarate vawelengths IMHO
heat is just IR partnof the light IMHO
but this does not mean that other vawelengths do not deliver energy: they indeed do!
John Courtney-Smithexplains this brilliant way in his book FIRE
PetNcs
Chameleon Enthusiast
I humbly and respectfully disagree,
various light wavelengths have direct and indirect influence on many physiological processes and homeostasis
jamest0o0
Chameleon Enthusiast
All I'm saying is that there is no proof, of my knowledge at least, that bee pollen is anymore than a fancy looking small mix of vitamins and minerals. All of which can be found through other sources. Saying it prevents disease sounds farfetched. I'm not against it, but Idk if I would still rush somebody to spend money on it if they have a solid gutload and feeder variety.
PetNcs
Chameleon Enthusiast
Absolitely
This is where they live
I have collected them there
So most of the genetics comes from this area
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PetNcs
Chameleon Enthusiast
well, a simple search in internet will show yoj that you are mistaken
To call pollen a “fancy looking small mix...” is IMHO very underrated and even demeaning definition of a substance, that, in general contains all micro elements, all vitamins, all aminoacids, natural bactericids, sugars and a lot of more...
Whatever it would be, it is a regular and substantial compound of the daily chameleon natural diet and as such, it is at least worth concern.
It woild be a surprize for me ifnit would be so meaningless why eg Arcadia would make their whole comcept of Earth Pro on Combination of dust and pollen... they are supersmart and basing their supplements on research of a member of Royal Zool. Society, my dear friend and colleague, Dr John Courteney-Smith...
I suggest humbly you to reconsider your rating...
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PetNcs
Chameleon Enthusiast
itnis a widelynparrotted brlief.
i do jot agree with its wording...
in Yemen, there are days and days when there is no heat and they do not show any problems
the speed of digestion is function of temperature, true, but that they need “heat”
i am resilient to agree
and if genetalizing to all chamrlrons, then it would not apply to
Many montanes
they need energy to digest
Depending on energy availability and intensity, the digestion process tuns at various speed
PetNcs
Chameleon Enthusiast
As stared above, as an integralmpartnof chameleon natural diet it IS to be considered
And all experience from using it speaks FOR and not AGAINST it.
I base my experience bith on natiral observations, as well as on my 30+ yesr captive practice as well as in reports of hundreds keepers and breeders.
i am not Aware that the price should be a major concern for husbandry
It is to be used in miniatire ammounts
And it is very reasonably priced for this...
A rough calcullation:
100g contains about 20.000 granules
It means if you would calculate 2 granules per day per chameleon, it is 10000 doses, it means you can keep about 30
Chameleons a year with 100g of pollen.
and the cost is about 5 USD.
Is a 15 Cents per year per chameleon a cost worth talking about?
Even Manuka pollen is only about 4 times more expensive...
jamest0o0
Chameleon Enthusiast
When I say small mix, I mean not potent. Like I said, I'm not against it and I've been using it myself. But there is no science backing any special properties of it(that I'm aware of). One could find the same nutrients through other methods.
I think you're confusing what I'm getting at. It's not a bad supplement, but I wouldn't tell someone it must be used
cyberlocc
Chameleon Enthusiast
Okay, I will bundle this one up with the above one, and just quote this one.
I agree that the beetles eat pollen and nectar, 110%. I agree thats more natural, and thats why I want to move to feeding pollen, nectar blend.
Why Boil:
Because its bee pollen. We had this in the other thread, the study's done on it, bee pollen is altered by an enzyme that only the bees can break down, so that best case, there is non digestible substances in the pollen mix.
From the study's, and articles I listed in the other thread, they said 30% or more, of the pollen granules, including when powdered could not be digested by anything but Bees.
A few of them said, that boiling the pollen will break down the enzyme. You are right, about possible loss of vitamins doing so, it's something we will have to look into more.
So the chameleon, will be largely okay with the undigestable matter, if the pollen was dusted on ect. However the small beetles may not fair as well.
Why Orange Juice:
Orange Juice, on top of offering tons of vitamins, the citrus also is a natural preservative.
it's use in the idea, was in low amounts, and for the preservative reasoning. It will help the finished mixture stay better longer, so it does not spoil or mold, as quickly.
in other beetle jelly's, it's used for the same effect, it makes a jelly that would be putrid in a day or 2, last 3 or 4.
It will also help fill the fruit gap, for the flower beetles.
Why Agar Agar:
This also ties back in to why boil, as the Agar Agar has to be boiled for this to work.
Agar Agar turns the powder into Jelly, powder would be very messy and unruly. The beetles trample their food, and would make a mess. The majority of the pollen would be wasted, create mold, and nastiness fairly quickly if given as a powder.
If given as a powder, than a constant supply of fruit would have to be provided to take the place of nectar and fruits. As that is how the beetles drink in the wild.
The jelly fulfills both goals, and is how beetles are raised in captivity.
The typical beetle jellys, used and sold for beetles, consit mostly of Brown Sugar and Banana.
The Bee Pollen Jelly I proposed would be much more natural and healthy than that IMO.
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