Kristen Wilkins
Chameleon Enthusiast
Mine too !.
Naturalistic Diet
- Thread starter cyberlocc
- Start date
jamest0o0
Chameleon Enthusiast
You are a very interesting individual
CasqueAbove
Chameleon Enthusiast
Odd they would doubt. It didn’t take much research to see you are real.
Not the normal expert that has raised them for 10 years.
Redman
Avid Member
"as field
Plankton,
Isually the wild caught outdoor insects are labelled, not those in culture"
Yes, I am aware and apologize if language differences made it unclear that I knew what you meant, and was saying that other than collecting local, wild insects, which in my area is severely limited by seasonal changes and the urban setting, our only option is to culture insect feeders. Sorry for any confusion.
"vast majority of insects is not poisonous, the exceltions"
Another issue for my area, and indeed many areas, is that wild caught insects in many cases are exposed to pesticides and fertilizers. My area has large outlying regions of farmland where these exposures are likely to occur. It is a valid concern, and tends to lead me to want to culture my feeders so that I ensure not only non-toxicity, but also am able to provide nutritional enrichment.
I hope that better addresses my earlier comments. If not, I will happily try to expand on my meaning.
Plankton,
Isually the wild caught outdoor insects are labelled, not those in culture"
Yes, I am aware and apologize if language differences made it unclear that I knew what you meant, and was saying that other than collecting local, wild insects, which in my area is severely limited by seasonal changes and the urban setting, our only option is to culture insect feeders. Sorry for any confusion.
"vast majority of insects is not poisonous, the exceltions"
Another issue for my area, and indeed many areas, is that wild caught insects in many cases are exposed to pesticides and fertilizers. My area has large outlying regions of farmland where these exposures are likely to occur. It is a valid concern, and tends to lead me to want to culture my feeders so that I ensure not only non-toxicity, but also am able to provide nutritional enrichment.
I hope that better addresses my earlier comments. If not, I will happily try to expand on my meaning.
skoram
Established Member
Petr is obviously a, if not the, foremost expert on chameleons living in the wild - what they are exposed to, what they eat, environmental parameters, etc.
I greatly respect the immense time, effort and passion you have put into this field and sharing your invaluable knowledge with ordinary keepers. Without this research and knowledge, few of us would be able to achieve the success we have raising our chameleons in captivity. Although I think few will argue that "artificial" alternatives are sometimes superior to natural conditions thanks to technology and science, these artificial alternatives could not succeed without natural scientific data.
The primary challenge for us then is determining if a particular artificial/unnatural alternative is in fact superior to nature. I do not think we are at the stage where we can answer this question definitively for many aspects of chameleon care, due to the lack of extensive scientific research on this family of reptiles. My guess is that the primary reasons some of our chameleons seem to live longer in captivity than they do in the wild is lack of predators, parasites and lower risk of malnutrition/dehydration in our enclosures.
I have said before in another thread, if you don't really know what conditions to aim for, natural conditions are always the safest bet (aside from introduction of predators, parasites, drought, etc. lol).
I greatly respect the immense time, effort and passion you have put into this field and sharing your invaluable knowledge with ordinary keepers. Without this research and knowledge, few of us would be able to achieve the success we have raising our chameleons in captivity. Although I think few will argue that "artificial" alternatives are sometimes superior to natural conditions thanks to technology and science, these artificial alternatives could not succeed without natural scientific data.
The primary challenge for us then is determining if a particular artificial/unnatural alternative is in fact superior to nature. I do not think we are at the stage where we can answer this question definitively for many aspects of chameleon care, due to the lack of extensive scientific research on this family of reptiles. My guess is that the primary reasons some of our chameleons seem to live longer in captivity than they do in the wild is lack of predators, parasites and lower risk of malnutrition/dehydration in our enclosures.
I have said before in another thread, if you don't really know what conditions to aim for, natural conditions are always the safest bet (aside from introduction of predators, parasites, drought, etc. lol).
PetNcs
Chameleon Enthusiast
thank you for clarifications, yes it makes perfect sense
IMHO, there are two issues that may simplify your situation:
1. The contamination with pesticides is a concern, especially if you really live in an area where all around there is no wild nature or protected area or NP. However: the insects are as a rule very sensitive to pesticides, so, if contaminated, they die. if you leave the fresh collected insects 1
Day in quarantine the survived ones will have nil or extremely tiny ammount of poison on them...
Anyway, if if you feel unsafe, I am with you: better safe than sorry...
2. As I indicated in my previous writing, though no doubting the positives of diverse food at all, the field and captive observations showed me, that if well supplemented (especially with pollen), even rather monotonous diet of not too highly nutritive feeders like crickets and flies (both of which are easy to breed in huge quantities) are providing enough nitrition for chameleos to thrive. My 12 years chameleons were fed crickets and flies 70% of the times...
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PetNcs
Chameleon Enthusiast
I sign every word you say except of the first paragraph, this, others have to judge of course. Thank you for your support, I am humbled!
jamest0o0
Chameleon Enthusiast
I think you are missing what I'm getting at a bit. Anyone here that knows me, knows I've been keeping chameleons as naturally as possible for a while now. My enclosures were even bioactive when there was only like 1 or 2 other active members doing that. Point being, I'm no way against natural methods. What I was calling out was the nonsense that he was and is still saying. He wants respect, but then talks like some holistic healer.
Look at the original post of his that sparked this. He talks about human lifespans(contradicting his own point of natural is always good, artificial always bad!). He says that feeding spirulina and different gutload mixes are unnatural and are knocking years off chameleons. Total nonsense backed by nothing. I appreciate what he's done, but the way he speaks to people on here is a joke. I've tried to be friendly and he starts off on people immediately. He has serious ego issues that get in the way of him actually getting his message across. Anyone on his side in the moment he kisses up to(as you just saw), but ask him one question that he disagrees with and you'll be on his hit list.
So to be clear, for sun exposure, temperatures, diet requirements, among others, yes mimicking nature would probably be ideal. Even then it's tricky because they do die during their droughts which has been brought up, showing that there is a good chance their natural conditions aren't optimal. I don't know for certain though, just stating the possibility. For diet, it's crazy to say anything, but their natural foods would be detrimental. I'm sure our ancestors didn't have a wide range of fruits and vegetables. If they did, they would have lived longer. To me, it makes sense that this applies to other animals as well, within reason.
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cyberlocc
Chameleon Enthusiast
We have to be really careful with some of this Petr.
A toxic insect guide, would be nice. However maybe a safe Insect guide would be easier?
You said spiders and their venom.
I am not sure what spiders you have over there. So that could be 100% true, for you. However State side we have some nasty spiders.
There is a few threads on here of cases of Chameleons dying due to eating (maybe being bitten) by Black Widows, and Brown Recluses to name a few.
Those are of especially worry to me. As where I live, and in a rural area. We have both of those around, quite alot. They tend to hide more than come out, however we have killed them in our home. Both of them, I'm always worried about them getting into my Vivariums.
Also, on the note of Field Plankton, there is also Lubbers here in the states (type of grasshopper) they are usually Black and Yellow, but not all. They are toxic as well.
Just to being up a few
.Also to the avatar thing, many folks on this forum know my name. I mention this, as you said the same to me. The way you approached it, made me not provide it at first, but to folks that I call friend I freely share my name.
I also quite frequently, share copies of posts from the Facebook groups. That show my real name. I really don't hide it. Also my real name is on my profile, however I did hide it, as for the reasons I told you before.
That all said, and I can't speak for everyone. My personal goal is to help the community. At this time, there is not a business aspect I wish to be involved in, in relation, I might sell a few bugs, but nothing major.
My name is really of no consequence to the data I supply, as I back my statements up with scientific links. When I provide opinion, you will have to gauge those, from my past posting and what you feel my level of knowledge.
My real name, and pictures like would be on Facebook are of no consequence of my data and ideas.
I know the Forum platform, is newish to you. It's only recent you have become truly active here, so I am just explaining, why the avatar thing is of little consequence.
I can see the flip side, where you could say people could make fake accounts or something. However the same is true of Facebook, so really there is no difference. Just because someone is on Facebook does not mean that is their real name, or photos you are seeing.
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PetNcs
Chameleon Enthusiast
I discuss respectfully with anyone who is reapectful and doea nit call. Ames and use rude offensive words like you do. And this is unacceptable for me. And actually also
Against the rules and spirit of this community.
i am saying nonsense? Show me a proof!
we still do not know what they in detail do in the wild and we want to experiment and play God in deciding what is better for them? And you call this science? And what I say, spending years with them in their biotopes and keeping them in captivity is a nonsense? That is too much if strange attitude fir me.
I have kept Yemen chameleons repeatedly to reach 12 years: have you? I have NOT done any “enhancements”, I just replicated what I saw in the wild and did it a very simple way. Nothing unnatural, no superfood,
Nothing that you are talking about if you take the example of humans. So, in your logic, if you really think we can do even better, then with your enhancements they must live even longer: maybe 20yeats or more?
But instead, when they reach 7 years of age, we applaud and consider it great achievement! Is it not science? Maybe not but this is evidence. And based of evidence, we have a clear paradox. Your way: 7 years. my way 12 years. But all what I say is nonsense. Come on, that is absurd, objectively absurd.
Well
i do not say anything contradictive, I have medical
Education as well.
And please before tou spit on me again, try to read about human nutrition a bit. Most of our problems comes from unnatural way of live and nutrition. Ame me one single artificial substance that is better than the natural one...
Yes, stupid and poimtelss gutloading that is overestimated is not good for chameleons.
The composition of spirulina is interesting, but to feed it to chameleons IS not natural. No chameleon ever eats spirulina and no insect they eat eats it: it is a cyanobacterium of the genus Arthrospira occuring naturally in tropical and subtropical lakes with high pH and high concentrations of carbonate and bicarbonates. How get chameleons to eat it?
it is ratjer paradogical that itnis in your opinion OK tomfeed them whatbthey do jit eat (spirulina) but is a nonsense to feed them what they eat with almost every single bite: pollen. And you say it is backed by nothingX what is your blank statěents and jazefull stracks on my address backed with?
How you dare to assessmmy ego? Ask me a wuestion, ai will gladly answer.’
Once you atrack me stating rudely rhat what ai say is bla and all is not basednon science and all I say is nonsense, thidnis really a great base of friendly aporoach to initiate a discussion, butnin some other world than the one we are living in.
i have never said and I repeat it many times, rhst we need to replicate all natural conditions.
I have proof for that: read the texts in my first edition of my book already, where I recommend mesningful adjustments. It is stuoid to put T hoehnelii every nigjt to a freezer (because they can survive drops even below freezing point) but same stupidnitnis to think that 22 degrees at nihht is aoak for them.
What is obvious, they need an night drio. Not to the extreme of course but not to high temos when they csn nit sleep and relax. Same with dry deason
Dimyounreally think I am such an idiot to recommend ti replicate several months without any hydrstion? NO and ai gave never said this. Bit different regimes if water intake and their oeriodicity during the years IS necesssry fir their welfare.
period
PetNcs
Chameleon Enthusiast
well I do not think so
Rjere are about 1M known and described insect soecies and the scientists agree that thisnis kust a small partnof what is out there...
there are sveral tenths or hundreds of them being significantly poisonous
i guess itnismuch better and also mire natiral fir our perception to point out the realy hsrmful rstjer than list hindredsnof thousands easy ones.
YesC be cautious. Sure
I was explicite in stating that the thought presented is not comprehemsive, I is a rule of thumb and rough picture from the top of my head.
PetNcs
Chameleon Enthusiast
Also, on the note of Field Plankton, there is also Lubbers here in the states (type of grasshopper) they are usually Black and Yellow, but not all. They are toxic as well.
Just to being up a few
yes lubbers tend to be toxic, I know them well (and ai iniw also well rhat in the auS, they est them and they survive - I jave an evidence if fecal damoles and a reportmof a trustful colleague), spiders are too, some significantly but if I am nit mistaken, the black widows are secretive and live under stones and hidden (i have seen thousands in my life, aleays st night or under stones or wood) so hardly a candidate for a chameleinC moreover they are black: a color that is mostly omitted by them this covered by my recommendation nit tomfeed black ones (btw spiders are also not insects)...
but as I said, the ambition was nit to be comprehensive
And ai jave mo ambition to male lists of thousands of safe chsmeleon feeders fir US, Mexico, Thailand, Siberia and Taiwan
that homework, I expect the respinsible keepers must do themselves resoecting some general recommendation and guideline...
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cyberlocc
Chameleon Enthusiast
Not trying to fight, however.
In regards to the plant laid out by Bills guide, and I believe your Care Sheet, at least in the case of the Malagasy Chameleons, Fogging at night only, with no "Rain" during the day, is recreating the dry season.
The humidity at night is still high, during the dry season, the difference is we go from 25-28 rainy days, to 5-10 rainy days.
I could see, maybe using a dripper or 2, being enough to represent the rain, however to only fog and not provide any daytime water, would be recreation of the dry season.
AGAIN, ONLY for Malagasy Species. I know little about Yemens, or Kenyans, ect, and do not pretend too
.
PetNcs
Chameleon Enthusiast
it is not a criticism, itnis just a statement as is
I do not force you to reveal in no way and aˇrespect the privacy
but, what we have here is a little strange situation
as we do not iniw whomhas what background, who has written what and what is his/her experience etc.
I can live with it, no offense and no requirement at all
we met under not good circumstamces and ended uo not being comfy with each other
Fsir enough
I csn live with it
I like when you dtay objective and ai hate when you distract from the topic and throw complicating issues in and I can not stand oersonal attacks and calling names
PetNcs
Chameleon Enthusiast
I am not advocsting facebook at all, it sucks for many reasonsWe have to be really careful with some of this Petr.
A toxic insect guide, would be nice. However maybe a safe Insect guide would be easier?
You said spiders and their venom.
I am not sure what spiders you have over there. So that could be 100% true, for you. However State side we have some nasty spiders.
There is a few threads on here of cases of Chameleons dying due to eating (maybe being bitten) by Black Widows, and Brown Recluses to name a few.
Those are of especially worry to me. As where I live, and in a rural area. We have both of those around, quite alot. They tend to hide more than come out, however we have killed them in our home. Both of them, I'm always worried about them getting into my Vivariums.
Also, on the note of Field Plankton, there is also Lubbers here in the states (type of grasshopper) they are usually Black and Yellow, but not all. They are toxic as well.
Just to being up a few
Also to the avatar thing, many folks on this forum know my name. I mention this, as you said the same to me. The way you approached it, made me not provide it at first, but to folks that I call friend I freely share my name.
I also quite frequently, share copies of posts from the Facebook groups. That show my real name. I really don't hide it. Also my real name is on my profile, however I did hide it, as for the reasons I told you before.
That all said, and I can't speak for everyone. My personal goal is to help the community. At this time, there is not a business aspect I wish to be involved in, in relation, I might sell a few bugs, but nothing major.
My name is really of no consequence to the data I supply, as I back my statements up with scientific links. When I provide opinion, you will have to gauge those, from my past posting and what you feel my level of knowledge.
My real name, and pictures like would be on Facebook are of no consequence of my data and ideas.
I know the Forum platform, is newish to you. It's only recent you have become truly active here, so I am just explaining, why the avatar thing is of little consequence.
I can see the flip side, where you could say people could make fake accounts or something. However the same is true of Facebook, so really there is no difference. Just because someone is on Facebook does not mean that is their real name, or photos you are seeing.
I am real
Everyone csn read my name and see my face
cyberlocc
Chameleon Enthusiast
yes libners tend to be toxic, I know them well, soiders are too, some significantly but if I am nit mistaken, the black widows are secretive and live under stones and hidden (i have seen thousands in my life, aleays st night irnunder stones or wood) so hardly a candidate for a chameleinC moreover they are black: a color that is mostly omitted by them this covered by my recommendation nit tomfeed black ones (btw spiders are also not insects)...
but as I said, the ambition was nit to be comprehensive
And ai jave mo ambition to male lists of thousands of safe chsmeleon feeders fir US, Mexico, Thailand, Siberia and Taiwan
Yes the widows do tend to be more hiding type.
I have caught a widow, in my Vivarium before, however and there is a few cases of them killing Chams here on the forums. Few and Far between, defiantly is not common. Just was worth a mention.
I may have misunderstood the black comment? I thought you mean Black and Red, or Black and Violet, or Black and Red and Violet.
Alot of the feeders, that chameleons eat are Black, or Black and Yellow, Black and Green, ect.
PetNcs
Chameleon Enthusiast
first, the care sheets younrefer to are for new irs and are rather simplified
moreover, the rain comes aˇin the tripics as a rule oredominantly in the evening time (not always, sure) and we can discuss details fir sure but ai guess itnis above my oay grade here...
Ehat I mean by that: we have so wrong and general care sheets, that they do not give even basal info really oroperly and safely.
andyoj want to doscuss the fine details of imitating rain meaningfully... OK we can do it
Make a separate theead on it better
It is more a topoc for a chapternof a comprehemsive book hiwever
(btw thank you ti keep our debate kind and respectful)
PetNcs
Chameleon Enthusiast
colors to be ommitted as a simplified rule of thumb:
Red
Violet
Black
and their combinations
in case of coleopterans - beetles
I case of lepidootwrans, the alarming colornis orange
(And combination of red and black too)
PetNcs
Chameleon Enthusiast
in my recommendation tjere is always datimr water
I usually firmullate it as
Misting before the ligjts (esp. Basking bulb) go ON
And after the lights go OFF
im modt cases, there is stiľ light
if keot in totallžy from external light isolated rooms, an adjustment is ti be made
cyberlocc
Chameleon Enthusiast
That may be enough to push it into a wet/dry season hybrid. Your right, alot of those rain days are at night, or evening.
I mist the same, I do, do an afternoon mist. However I turn off the basking light, and the LEDs 30 mins before the mist, and do not turn them back on till 30 mins after. To simulate cloud cover and reduce temps, and give warning.
