Naturalistic Diet

PetNcs

Chameleon Enthusiast
I know Petr has stated because Misters are not rain. I agree, I greatly want a better rain system personally. However Misting as Petr states it, is pressurized water particles, which is true and agreed.

yes, this is MHO
And ai am happy you agree with me from time to time
 

PetNcs

Chameleon Enthusiast
However a fogger is also pressurized water particles. How can we demonize one, and elevate the other?

bit this is a faul again:
You understand very well that this is a falsification

misting is a soraying of ly oressurized wayer that reaches the environment and bodies of chamelekns woth speed and direction and size of particles that all differ from their experience with rain in the wild

while

fogger is developing artificial
Fognin braking down liquid water to small particles of similar size as in the wild and is oressurized only by the means of a ventillator that then let the fog freely penetrate the space of and fall with gravity

it is a complete different story

Here we are also limited by our technical means:
While there IS a very easy way how to simullate rain (if necessary)
There is not yet a way how to create artificial fog using natural process of condensation from the air oversaturated with water vapor around the dew point...
I fo not know better now.

butI operate foggers since 90s and had never any negative issues with it
 

PetNcs

Chameleon Enthusiast
On the moral ethical issue it get confusing. Should we own them at all? Anybody that owns exotics contribute to the bad side of the trade. Not directly of course, but simply by having interest, the bad wild collectors are encouraged to get more.

And what of the poor fish. Man what are their odds.

My balance is this. We must do our best to provide for our pets. But our best is not always going to be the same. Looking back on my mistakes I always meant well, and I learned. I would not have learned, had I not mad mistakes. Even through study mistakes are made. Some of what I have learned was not even available when I started.

For many people the pet shop is their experience with animals. And the employees, they know their stuff. It is usually not until they see this "expert advice" fail before they begin to question. I would rather them learn about the balances then be discouraged and quit.


It is a tricky balance. Without interest or knowledge of many species, there would be no effort to save them in the wild. If left completely in the wild there will be less interest.

There is no good or bad in this. It just is.

an awesome perspective
And thank yiu for it!

when I introduced the yemen chameleon to captivity in the late 80s,
My explicite dream was to establish them in the captivity in such a way, that there will be no need to take them again for the purpose of pet trade from the wild... goal accomplished.
It has a downside also, that I openly admit. You can listen to my talk from last year at Herpeton conference in San Diego, CA,
Recommended only for those who will not be offended by my broken English and heavy german-slavonic accent.

 
Last edited:

PetNcs

Chameleon Enthusiast
I am with you on longevity. That is why I am here. I personally have a new bar set. I have a 34 year old bird, 22 year old snake, a 10+ cham would fit right in.

For me The night time is new info. I have a mist king, I am going to start giving short night showers. Per this forum I have already started a mist shortly after lights out. Will this supplement for fogger.

As for food. As many I am limited in option at times. My current approach is going to feed the standard feeders w/supplements during winter, but catch and feed as many winged insects as I can. Do moths count?

great

nighttime misting is just half way the effort
I have a paper in print on that, the Results of my experiments were very simple (all nighttime)
1. low humidity leads to dessication
2. High humidity above 90% stops any dessication, keeps the water in the body But does not hydrate
3. high humidity above 96% and fog hydrates

so, for full effect in indoor husbandry you need a fogger

moths count
in my extensive experiments with food, I have the following evidence:
Mixed field plancton is best
the comparison of variable captive food and mono diet of crickets and flies, if enhanced by pollen is insignificant
I do not advocate monodiet
But in my long term experiments, feeding with Low nutritionalmvalue food if supplemented with pollen was totally OK and field plankton was only slightly better

so far unpublished, based on my experience and experiments
 
Last edited:

Redman

Avid Member
As has been said here many times, the problem with providing variety comes down to knowing what insects are safe, possible to culture year round, and sourcing starter stock and culturing information.

I am always striving to increase my offering options, but other than as you say "Field Plankton", I find it very hard to source insect species that I can culture.
 

jamest0o0

Chameleon Enthusiast
ask science, she will give you an answer you want and not bla... I am afraid she will stay silent...
(I am sorry that I can not swallow that kind of rudeness I am not used to from the countries I am home to)

I do not know why it is always so hard to make things simple.
Overdiscussing and seeking scinece where science do not have the answers, as noone has studied this in detail yet.
Why it is Ok to discuss absolutely irrelevant issues on how to use agar for bugs to feed pollen but if someone offers to share a PhD, 30+ yearsnof experience, 30t bred Yemens in 15generations, a year of life and study in Yemen, it is called bla... Weird world we live in.
Why the opinions oresented lead on your side to deep destructive doubt instead to the only valid question ai would ask on your place:
“Wow, you kept Yemens fir 12 years... How did you do that?!”

But OK, you do not need to read further and please do not, as you will not like what I will write very likely

Science always seeks the ways how to KNOW.
And, there is one simple scientific approach that is repeated for centuries and every scientist knows it.
If we do know, we use our education and expertise to “Assume” and set hypothesis.
And then, we do experiments to proof or falsify. That is easy.

we definitely do NOT KNOW which of the environmental factors is vital and which is lethal? Funny, of course, most of the cases we of course know
That feral cat is lethal
Water in small amounts is vital
58’C is lethal
UV is vital and lethal depending on spectrum and dosis
Etc etc..

And in the few we are not sure, we can assume.

I did this exercise and I based it on all available: published and unpunlished data, General knoledge, own experience and experience if others and own physical experience from the biotopes and land and people and nature and climate and everything that I could take into consideration and measure and feel and perceive and sense.

And, I know exactly how to let a yemen chameleon survive 12 years.
Why I know? Because I have done it several times! And I can repeat it any time
.

It does NOT explicitly mean, I know everything and best and all I Know is correct.
But with absolute confidence, I know more and better than those who keep Yemen chameleons for 3,5 and 7 years until they die.

and I can tell you one more mystery, as I always hear hiw hard it will be to simullate all this. Itnis NOT hard
Itnis easy and in our technological age we live, it is not more complicated nd not
More expensive that what an average keeper does anyway!

So, you have a choice:
Either you listen to the one who has made it
Or you insist to listen to what you call
Science (i do not understand what yiu mean anyway) and continue be happy with advice and people effectively killing the chameleons at 30 to 50 percent of the reacheable longevity and be happy that they kill them the way you feel is science”.

Lol, yet you told me that it means nothing that I've fed roaches to all of my chameleons as staples and still haven't had a case of gout.
 

Kaizen

Chameleon Enthusiast
ask science, she will give you an answer you want and not bla... I am afraid she will stay silent...
(I am sorry that I can not swallow that kind of rudeness I am not used to from the countries I am home to)

I do not know why it is always so hard to make things simple.
Overdiscussing and seeking scinece where science do not have the answers, as noone has studied this in detail yet.
Why it is Ok to discuss absolutely irrelevant issues on how to use agar for bugs to feed pollen but if someone offers to share a PhD, 30+ yearsnof experience, 30t bred Yemens in 15generations, a year of life and study in Yemen, it is called bla... Weird world we live in.
Why the opinions oresented lead on your side to deep destructive doubt instead to the only valid question ai would ask on your place:
“Wow, you kept Yemens fir 12 years... How did you do that?!”

But OK, you do not need to read further and please do not, as you will not like what I will write very likely

Science always seeks the ways how to KNOW.
And, there is one simple scientific approach that is repeated for centuries and every scientist knows it.
If we do know, we use our education and expertise to “Assume” and set hypothesis.
And then, we do experiments to proof or falsify. That is easy.

we definitely do NOT KNOW which of the environmental factors is vital and which is lethal? Funny, of course, most of the cases we of course know
That feral cat is lethal
Water in small amounts is vital
58’C is lethal
UV is vital and lethal depending on spectrum and dosis
Etc etc..

And in the few we are not sure, we can assume.

I did this exercise and I based it on all available: published and unpunlished data, General knoledge, own experience and experience if others and own physical experience from the biotopes and land and people and nature and climate and everything that I could take into consideration and measure and feel and perceive and sense.

And, I know exactly how to let a yemen chameleon survive 12 years.
Why I know? Because I have done it several times! And I can repeat it any time.

It does NOT explicitly mean, I know everything and best and all I Know is correct.
But with absolute confidence, I know more and better than those who keep Yemen chameleons for 3,5 and 7 years until they die.

and I can tell you one more mystery, as I always hear hiw hard it will be to simullate all this. Itnis NOT hard
Itnis easy and in our technological age we live, it is not more complicated nd not
More expensive that what an average keeper does anyway!

So, you have a choice:
Either you listen to the one who has made it
Or you insist to listen to what you call
Science (i do not understand what yiu mean anyway) and continue be happy with advice and people effectively killing the chameleons at 30 to 50 percent of the reacheable longevity and be happy that they kill them the way you feel is science”.
Petr,
I deeply apologize if I came across as rude. I appreciate your insights here, and I will reflect on what you’ve said. Thanks for your reply.
 

PetNcs

Chameleon Enthusiast
As has been said here many times, the problem with providing variety comes down to knowing what insects are safe, possible to culture year round, and sourcing starter stock and culturing information.

I am always striving to increase my offering options, but other than as you say "Field Plankton", I find it very hard to source insect species that I can culture.

as field
Plankton,
Isually the wild caught outdoor insects are labelled, not those in culture

vast majority of insects is not poisonous, the exceltions are rather few only, I will now not put tohether a comprehensive list but they are mainly:
Some lady beetles
Blister beetles incl Spanish flies
Monarchs and their larvae
Some hornworms and their moths
All hairy carerpillars

in general the rule is do not feed red, violet and black insects, especially beetles

Of course, all ants and wasps and bees and spiders are also poisonous/resp venomous but it is invalid for chameleons as they can eat them and digest their venoms
 

PetNcs

Chameleon Enthusiast
Lol, yet you told me that it means nothing that I've fed roaches to all of my chameleons as staples and still haven't had a case of gout.

That means nothing
Gout is a physiological disorder not a real disease, as such, it can appear if the factors potenting it are there and might not.
i have a gout too, first case I got when I was 16 and I was doing sport at very high level, in an absolute absence of potenting food items, during my life, it appeared about 5 times for 1-3 days
Gout is quite unpredictable and the diet in general increases risks of it but does not necessarily lead to it, some specimens (even in humans) can eliminate it most of the times

moreover, saying that you havent had a case of gout is quite absolute: how do you know?
Gout does not necessarily demonstrate in a visible way, have you done x-rays or MRTs of the bigger joints of all your chameleons on regular basis? And did their bloodtests?
I do not believe it.
Therefore, the value of your comment is same as the acronyme you started it with: LOL. Or maybe no science, BLA?
 

PetNcs

Chameleon Enthusiast
Petr,
I deeply apologize if I came across as rude. I appreciate your insights here, and I will reflect on what you’ve said. Thanks for your reply.

Kaizen, I did not in any case mean you! You are always very kind and respectful and I enjoy any debate with you!
The way how this blog is structured is for some people a bit confusing and I do not like it too much, so ai sometimes also misidentify the author of some comment.
My complain rferees to the statement:
“With respect, I feel a lot/all of what you said is not backed by science. 'Artifical, unnatural, natural, etc are just blah words.” And aif ai am
Not mistaken, it was not you authoring it but Jamest0o0. I guess that I am not wrong that that can be easily taken as an offense.
 

jamest0o0

Chameleon Enthusiast
That means nothing
Gout is a physiological disorder not a real disease, as such, it can appear if the factors potenting it are there and might not.
i have a gout too, first case I got when I was 16 and I was doing sport at very high level, in an absolute absence of potenting food items, during my life, it appeared about 5 times for 1-3 days
Gout is quite unpredictable and the diet in general increases risks of it but does not necessarily lead to it, some specimens (even in humans) can eliminate it most of the times

moreover, saying that you havent had a case of gout is quite absolute: how do you know?
Gout does not necessarily demonstrate in a visible way, have you done x-rays or MRTs of the bigger joints of all your chameleons on regular basis? And did their bloodtests?
I do not believe it.
Therefore, the value of your comment is same as the acronyme you started it with: LOL. Or maybe no science, BLA?

Lol, man the way you turn things around, you should be a politician. Or maybe you are already? My comment just now about feeding roaches with no problems, wasn't me trying to use an example of why it doesn't ever cause gout. I was pointing out how ridiculous it is for you to tell me that I can't bring up my personal experience, when you turn around and do the same thing in order to explain your chams living 12 years.
 

CasqueAbove

Chameleon Enthusiast
PetNcs
I have read your web site, and IMHO I think it is quite good. It is concise with explanation.
It does not just say do this, but not tell why.

When asked for info on Yemen Chameleon I will be directing to your site.
 

PetNcs

Chameleon Enthusiast
Lol, man the way you turn things around, you should be a politician. Or maybe you are already? My comment just now about feeding roaches with no problems, wasn't me trying to use an example of why it doesn't ever cause gout. I was pointing out how ridiculous it is for you to tell me that I can't bring up my personal experience, when you turn around and do the same thing in order to explain your chams living 12 years.

oh, please, can you be so kind and bring your experience then?
So far, I have not noticed it except of doubting my credibility and making more destructive than constructive comments...
 

PetNcs

Chameleon Enthusiast
PetNcs
I have read your web site, and IMHO I think it is quite good. It is concise with explanation.
It does not just say do this, but not tell why.

When asked for info on Yemen Chameleon I will be directing to your site.

thank you for your warm words, I am humbled!
You would not believe how many battles I have to go through to break the walls of ignorance and doubt and hate. Thank you for your support! Inpromise ai eill refune and add more data and mir explanations and only at last I eill give a justified advice...
 
Top Bottom