my translucent veiled

[pssh]

I didn't intend to "put words in your mouth." I guess I was just typing too quickly and didn't realize I misspoke. Sorry.

Perhaps I do think too hard into things. I am just attempting to learn. If there is something I don't understand, I try to learn about it, hence my asking about Mike.

 

[Mario Vermunt]

i agree a third observer can not judge or something on a website is correct or something a guy called "Mario" is posting.

I would say give Kees Bout a call to ask him, his phone number is on the website i mentioned, as he was the first breeder he is the one to know best where the initial parent animals came from ;-)

 

[pssh]

i agree a third observer can not judge or something on a website is correct or something a guy called "Mario" is posting.

I would say give Kees Bout a call to ask him, his phone number is on the website i mentioned, as he was the first breeder he is the one to know best where the initial parent animals came from ;-)

What is the website? I would love to see it.

 

[italian chameleon]

My two cents about translucents: this mutation doesn't affect communication, chameleons are NOT social animals, they communicate to attract mates and to dispute over territory, since these animals are mated on a regular base in both US and EU it is evident that it doesn't affect communication as far as mating is concerned. secondly there's no need for territorial disputes in captivity and since these "mutants" are only found in captivity we can say that if trans\piebald have a problem IT IS NOT communication (I mean, come on.. )

I'd be much more concerned about problems with vitamin D synthesis and proneness to skin burns,

finally baby chams in the wild have such a high mortality rate that even if some trans\piebald has ever hatched in the wild it is impossible that it reached adulthood.

so my opinion is that even if the mutation is part of their DNA you will never see a trans\piebald in the wild!!!
be it inbreeeding or random mutation, the result is the same: they only exist in captivity!! so IT' S POINTLESS TO ARGUE!! everyone should take it easy

What is the website? I would love to see it.

try and google the dutch breeder's name

 

[pssh]

I think I missed the name?

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Its on page 7 of this thread posted by Mario.

 

[pssh]

Oh wow, I'm lame. Thanks.

Edit: And now I'm confused again. I'm not liking attempting to navigate the site, even with google translate.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Oh wow, I'm lame. Thanks.

I would not say that you just over looked it.

 

[pssh]

Thanks again. So polite!

 

[Ferdy Timmerman]

Has anyone considered the fact that chameleons use their ability to change their color(intensity) to regulate their body temperature?
Some of that ability is lost in animals that are partially translucent, so how much more proof would one need in order to see that this is a bad genetic trait?

A translucent calyptratus in the wild would be a lot less likely to reach adulthood (due to numerous reasons) than a normal calyptratus, so this phenotype has to be rare if not absent from the wild (assuming the wild population(s) is/are large enough etc.). Therefore I believe the captive translucent animals result from inbreeding. People that are seriously interested in keeping and breeding chameleons and want to ensure that the captive population remains healthy (in the long term) and as genetically diverse as possible, DO NOT have an interest in breeding translucent animals.

The thing that strikes me most though, is that in this case the (almost) unique ability to change color (to a chameleon's extent that is) is partially bred out of the animal's genes, and people are even willing to pay a higher amount of money for it than for a genetically healthier animal.



By the way, I've met Kees Bout (that Dutch breeder) when I was 15 years old. I bought a calyptratus from him (my second chameleon, not translucent), but forgot to ask for the papers. I emailed him several times afterwards to get the papers via mail, but he never replied to me. Nice guy...

 

[italian chameleon]

Has anyone considered the fact that chameleons use their ability to change their color(intensity) to regulate their body temperature?
Some of that ability is lost in animals that are partially translucent, so how much more proof would one need in order to see that this is a bad genetic trait?

A translucent calyptratus in the wild would be a lot less likely to reach adulthood (due to numerous reasons) than a normal calyptratus, so this phenotype has to be rare if not absent from the wild (assuming the wild population(s) is/are large enough etc.). Therefore I believe the captive translucent animals result from inbreeding. People that are seriously interested in keeping and breeding chameleons and want to ensure that the captive population remains healthy (in the long term) and as genetically diverse as possible, DO NOT have an interest in breeding translucent animals.

The thing that strikes me most though, is that in this case the (almost) unique ability to change color (to a chameleon's extent that is) is partially bred out of the animal's genes, and people are even willing to pay a higher amount of money for it than for a genetically healthier animal.



By the way, I've met Kees Bout (that Dutch breeder) when I was 15 years old. I bought a calyptratus from him (my second chameleon, not translucent), but forgot to ask for the papers. I emailed him several times afterwards to get the papers via mail, but he never replied to me. Nice guy...

I guess you're right!! it would be interesting to know if translucents have a shorter average life span compared to regular veileds and howdo they cope with cham's everyday issues (UV, heat,feeding,dehydration etc...)

P.s: idea for new poll: "how many translucent\piebald veiled keepers are there in the forums?"

 

[Ferdy Timmerman]

That would be interesting indeed, but difficult to find out if you want good data. You'd have to set up a controlled experimental situation with at least 2 groups of calyptratus (translucent and regular, even more interesting would be to compare with wild animals in Yemen), and keep them all exactly the same. Otherwise, observed differences might not be due to their genes. You'd even have to manage the feeders quite accurately, in order to ensure they all have the same nutritional value before they are fed to the chameleons. Another difficulty might be selecting the animals for the regular group. Who knows, maybe they all carry bad genes already, when compared to wild animals.
But if the ability to regulate body temperature in translucent animals is affected severely enough, I can imagine their metabolism would be disturbed. They may have less potential to become as big as a normal, (genetically) healthy calyptratus. Also, if it takes longer for them to heat up, they have less time to forage.

Go ahead with that poll. You can use my post if you want. I don't know how much I'll contribute to the topic though. I don't really like big discussions anymore, but I felt I had something to say here

 

[robmd1]

Well, they cannot display any colors in the "translucent" regions, right?
That means they are not able to communicate with other members of their species properly, right?
A panther that has a unique pattern is totally different from that i think

hmmm who are they tryen to communicate with in a cage by them selves?

 

[jpm995]

I kind of agree with Lumbaslammer even thought i have bought gene altered glofish [zebra dannios with jellyfish genes to make them orange, green, yellow]. Messing with nature especially for the only reason being astectics seems unnecessary and potentially dangerous. There are so many worse examples of human stupidity in breeding/genetics [especially dogs where some pure breeds have lifespans shortened do to inbreeding and such], that translucent chams seems rather a minor infraction.

 

[JackP308]

I will absolutely respond. when i have more time.
i do not spend every waking second on this forum.
I do have a life outside this website.
and so happy i can entertain you.

thank you. and good night to you too.

Still waiting for this great response.

 

[sdheli420]

pretty long debate, lol..anyway i personally like chameleons for thier colors, im not really into human skin colored chams, and to me they look like chams with bad burns all over fleshy skin peices..

 

[JackP308]

pretty long debate, lol..anyway i personally like chameleons for thier colors, im not really into human skin colored chams, and to me they look like chams with bad burns all over fleshy skin peices..

Its not even a debate there is an answer I just want to hear the explanation since some people claim to know but just to busy to type it down.

 

[lumbasammler]

hmmm who are they tryen to communicate with in a cage by them selves?

It´s not always about whether it´s necessary or not but more about if it´s natural and if they might need that ability sometime.
But doesn´t matter anyway, a lot of possibly bad features of this breed have been pointed out and i think it´s absolutely unnessecary to buy, keep or breed one of those animals, even though there´s no proof that being "translucent" is harmful for the animal. If you still do so i assume that you´re a person who cares more about their personal fondness for this kind of color than about the well-being and health of the animal that is affected by this.
If that was the case, i would think very poorly of this person.

 

[italian chameleon]

It´s not always about whether it´s necessary or not but more about if it´s natural and if they might need that ability sometime.

i think i answered to the "communication issue" in my first post

But doesn´t matter anyway, a lot of possibly bad features of this breed have been pointed out and i think it´s absolutely unnessecary to buy, keep or breed one of those animals, even though there´s no proof that being "translucent" is harmful for the animal.

no proof yet that these animals are less healthy than regular veileds it's only a moral issue on whether it's right or not to breed them cause they're "unnatural" but then go tell that to a ball python breeder who just bought the new 2000$ f**d up morph

If you still do so i assume that you´re a person who cares more about their personal fondness for this kind of color than about the well-being and health of the animal that is affected by this.
If that was the case, i would think very poorly of this person.

now that was unnecessary! I mean... peace bro!!!

 

[lumbasammler]

i think i answered to the "communication issue" in my first post

If you read the entire thread you´d know that this is not the only thing to worry about

no proof yet that these animals are less healthy than regular veileds it's only a moral issue on whether it's right or not to breed them cause they're "unnatural" but then go tell that to a ball python breeder who just bought the new 2000$ f**d up morph

No proof doesn´t mean you must try to find out, does it?

now that was unnecessary! I mean... peace bro!!!

What? i uses "If that was the case" and "i WOULD" in order to not insult anybody personally