My thoughts on UV Lighting

[bradley]

I have recently seen quite a few posts regarding UV and the strength that should be used. I keep one veiled and one panther in 4 feet high cages that are 2 feet square.

I use the new arcadia T5 bulbs. I use the 12% D3+ with reflector. Before this I used the exo terra 10.0. I use the normal supplement schedule with pure calcium, calcium with D3 and a multivitamin.

The point I want to make is that with UV being much more advanced now I believe that we should no longer associate certain reptiles with a specific UV percentage. I have spoke to the one of the arcadia team and they feel this should no longer be the case as well. UV strength should be calculated on the height of the enclosure, Foliage and if anything is blocking the light e.g. screen.

These T5 bulbs are still not the same strength of the sun and there is still a long way to go with getting a strength bulb even close to the sun. I have seen many people say a 10.0 is too high to use on a chameleon when the levels of UV the bulb will emit is not even close to wild conditions.

I myself have noticed increased activity and better feeding with the higher strength lighting. I have used the 10.0 lighting for the past 4 years on chameleons and replaced them at 6 months. whilst my chameleons were healthy, active and feeding well I have seen a great difference with more UV.

I am in the UK which means my chameleons rarely get access to natural sunlight so I have to provide the best possible UV I can! These are just my views. I am not saying everyone should go by this as everyone has a different way of doing things. If something is working for you Then keep it that way! I just want to provide an environment closest to the wild as possible! i think there is alot more research to be done which could help with keeping our animals even better! I feel people need to take into consideration personal situations and choose the best option for them!

Anyone else with views on the subject? Would love to hear them!

 

[Miss Lily]

Sounds interesting Bradley, do you have a link to a supplier of the 5 bulbs?

 

[fluxlizard]

I think the problem with the high uv tubes is the amount of light they put out is not increased along with the amount of UV. If light is not bright enough, the pupils won't contract enough and eye damage can occur.

That as far as I know is the only real concern with using the 10.0 tubes (which I also use by the way without problems- but I am careful about providing bright lighting alongside the UV tubes. Bright light is natural and beneficial anyway, so it all works together for the best situation.)

The amount of UVB should not be a problem as you rightly point out that sunlight puts out far more. Also the lizards stop producing d3 from the UV light when their system has enough- so it isn't like the extra radiation can cause them to make too much. Sunlight is far more brilliant than flourescent tubes though, so pupils contract when exposed to UVB from sunlight.

That is my understanding anyway...

 

[summoner12]

The reason there aren't lamps as bright as the sun is because a cage is a micro envirement. The animal is subject to the lamps exposure th entire time the lamp is on, even if it tries to hide. So going full blow with a bright lamp isn't good. You have to keep in mind the average exposure, not the exposure they get when basking in the sun for 5 minutes. If you provide that much light the entire day in a cage, you'll be over doing it to the extreme.

The exposure from the 12+ is going to be too much UVB IMHO. I think if you have the lamp elevated above the cage at least 6", your 'ok'... but only good if you do have good plant coverage.

 

[bradley]

The Arcadia t5 bulbs are also 100% brighter which would make the brightness concern les of a risk. I also feel because the mesh is blocking some uv you wouldn't be getting the I'll uv exposure.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Interesting thoughts on both sides! I myself don't have strong opinions either way. I use 5.0 because it works so I don't have a need to use higher. But it would be interesting to compare! I'd like to see UVB readings from different bulbs with different types of screen at different heights from some of the bulbs.

 

[summoner12]

The Arcadia t5 bulbs are also 100% brighter which would make the brightness concern les of a risk. I also feel because the mesh is blocking some uv you wouldn't be getting the I'll uv exposure.

Do you have a meter? do you have a spectrograph? I don't think you can be making these assumptions without looking at some numbers. I don't think it's a good idea to use a 12+ on a cage without raising the lamp up a bit and providing good places to hide.

 

[bradley]

There was an article published in a uk magazine showing the readings of the t5 bulbs and the equivalent t8 bulbs that I will post when I find it. They don't have reading through the screen ATM but the readings are still higher than the t8 bulbs.

 

[bradley]

Do you have a meter? do you have a spectrograph? I don't think you can be making these assumptions without looking at some numbers. I don't think it's a good idea to use a 12+ on a cage without raising the lamp up a bit and providing good places to hide.

I do not own a meter I am just going by what the company has published and told others. A local shop near me regularly takes reading of the bulbs with a meter to see when they need replacing. I full understand that I cannot make assumptions to uv levels and so on I just want to share mythoughts. It is great hearing your thoughts on the matter aswell

 

[fluxlizard]

The reason there aren't lamps as bright as the sun is because a cage is a micro envirement. The animal is subject to the lamps exposure th entire time the lamp is on, even if it tries to hide. So going full blow with a bright lamp isn't good.

That is true- To clarify- I go for bright by adding another non-uvb tube and basking spot. And in large enclosures (4' high 30"x30") sometimes I might use ge daylight CFL 100 watt equivalent as a second spot.

That said- providing too much light should not be a problem for most people because simply placing the cage outside suddenly provides more light than nearly anything we can provide indoors (without extremes - maybe metal halides or something?)

"Bright sunlight provides illuminance of approximately 100,000 lux or lumens per square meter at the Earth's surface."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunlight

In the shade it is still about 10,000 lux.

You need 4 or 5 40 watt flourescent tubes plus a basking light to get about the same lumens as shade in the upper parts of a 3 or 4' high terrarium.

Is my thinking wrong?

Most of us only use 1 or 2 tubes.

And when it comes to the bright tubes you guys are talking about, I don't have experience. I'm talking things like zoomed tubes.

 

[EvilLost]

The point I want to make is that with UV being much more advanced now I believe that we should no longer associate certain reptiles with a specific UV percentage.

I've never made this assumption.

As for the comment regarding a bulb "approaching the sun" as others have pointed out, we DONT want that. What we want to accomplish is replicating the typical microW/sqin of UV that these animals get in their average habitat (at least until more direct numbers for individual species are discovered by means of scientific experimentation)

In order to do this we must take into account several factors (such as mesh reduction, lifespan, etc etc).

EDIT: For those that are unaware.... LUMENS/LUMINOSITY measures VISIBLE LIGHT ONLY. UV is not visible and is NOT INCLUDED in that measurement. UV is measured by "power output" typically measured in microWatts/square inch

@FluxLizard: Not surprising there is no cite on that claim. Don't believe everything you read on wikipedia.....not to mention there would be immense variation between geographical location, weather patterns, etc.

As far as luminosity is concerned, I think its important to note (in my experience) the majority of chameleon keepers focus on the animals and not the plants/"display" aspect. If you compare to froggers or more aquatic keepers who do have many "display" tanks, they use MUCH more lighting.


Also, to give you a comparison:
-My "standard" 2x2x4 tank has (like many) 1 2' tube light for UVB and 1 basking light. thats it, barely lit and barely any plant growth.

-my "display" build (almost complete) is lit by a basking bulb, 2x 2'UVB tubes, and 24 high power LEDs (each LED puts out ~300 lumens *24 = 8000 lumens)

so I do use much more light than most keepers here because I focus on plant growth/etc. The chameleons don't need it though imo

 

[Hoj]

what confuses me here is that some say we want a micro climate and i get that, but then what is the effect of placing cham enclosures outside.
if both enclosures have addiquate shade and hidding areas than as far as light is concerned what is the difference between a "microclimate" and an outdoor cage.

 

[Duke]

As SonTigerPantherCham said in an earlier thread

"Speaking from experience, having a solarmeter really is the only way to be confident of your numbers"

And that is correct. All bulbs have varied output.... over time. Cages, angles, distances, time, etc will all play a part. One never actually KNOWS without measuring and even then it will change with time

 

[fluxlizard]

DIT: For those that are unaware.... LUMENS/LUMINOSITY measures VISIBLE LIGHT ONLY. UV is not visible and is NOT INCLUDED in that measurement. UV is measured by "power output" typically measured in microWatts/square inch

Well, yeah, but...
Are you trying to say that bright sunlight has the same or less UVB than sunlight that is not as bright (time of year, rainy day, morning, evening?) or exactly what is the point- (I'm genuinely asking because I don't understand)?
Even in the shade outdoors where there is less light- there is still a lot of UVB compared to even 10.0 tube from what I have read somewhere or other along the way on the internet (and who can question the internet? LOL just joking).

@FluxLizard: Not surprising there is no cite on that claim. Don't believe everything you read on wikipedia.....not to mention there would be immense variation between geographical location, weather patterns, etc.

I've read that claim elsewhere as well (the old TFH schmidt, tamm, wallikawitz - chameleons breeding book for one) and also when searching today for the numbers- the search engine turned up lots of websites on marijuana growing who by lucky coincidence are interested in light quantity and use the same numbers and calculations.

My point anyway isn't that we should try to match the intensity of the sunlight in an indoor terrarium

My points are

1) inadequate light intensity does not cause the pupils to contract, allowing more UV into the eyes with the potential for causing damage.

2) We are anyway unlikely to ever approach anything close to outdoor light intensity even in the shade outdoors using traditional flourescents. Someone mentioned new tubes that are 2x as bright- so maybe my thoughts on this are dated now and 3 or 4 of those would become more bright than some shade.

and my subpoints are

1) What's the problem with full spectrum 10.0 lighting if they are safe for some diurnal lizards, they should be safe for all as long as the lighting is bright enough for the pupils to contract and prevent eye damage. At least I would guess so. It isn't like a lizard can produce too much d3 from the extra uvb...

(Or am I thinking about it wrong somehow? I'm totally open for better explanation as I haven't really thought much about this for many years- honestly until a year or two ago I really didn't think much about it as I have had no problems using whatever brand of UVB producing light. 20 years ago I started breeding chameleons with vita-lites and had no problems, and after vita-lites it seemed like any more UVB was just a wonderful bonus rather than a necessity. But a couple years ago I started using 10.0 lights because I have large enclosures for the most part, and haven't had a problem yet.

and

2) relatively bright light is good for diurnal lizards. A number of authors of books and magazine articles point out that feeding and breeding and activity and growth rates (sort of make sense if feeding is effected) are positively influenced by bright lighting for diurnal lizards...

 

[fluxlizard]

what confuses me here is that some say we want a micro climate and i get that, but then what is the effect of placing cham enclosures outside.
if both enclosures have addiquate shade and hidding areas than as far as light is concerned what is the difference between a "microclimate" and an outdoor cage.

+1 for my thinking too.
Especially considering my understanding from what I have read in the past that those of us using a single flourescent tube or two are putting out less UVB and lumens/lux at full exposure than our lizard would get sitting in the shade avoiding the sun outdoors...

 

[EvilLost]

Well, yeah, but...
Are you trying to say that bright sunlight has the same or less UVB than sunlight that is not as bright (time of year, rainy day, morning, evening?) or exactly what is the point- (I'm genuinely asking because I don't understand)?
Even in the shade outdoors where there is less light- there is still a lot of UVB compared to even 10.0 tube from what I have read somewhere or other along the way on the internet (and who can question the internet? LOL just joking).

It is much more complicated than that. What I am saying is that if something is a billion lumens, it tells you nothing about how "much" UV is in it. Lumens are not a measure of UV. If you want to start discussing UV values in sunlight, you need to be talking about UV measurements.

Unless you know the exact spectral distribution of sunlight (which changes based on a million factors btw) there is no way to accurately calculate or estimate the amount of UV in the light based on its luminosity.


I've read that claim elsewhere as well (the old TFH schmidt, tamm, wallikawitz - chameleons breeding book for one) and also when searching today for the numbers- the search engine turned up lots of websites on marijuana growing who by lucky coincidence are interested in light quantity and use the same numbers and calculations.

I think its funny you consider this lucky. These calculations are pretty basic engineering calculations

My point anyway isn't that we should try to match the intensity of the sunlight in an indoor terrarium

My points are

1) inadequate light intensity does not cause the pupils to contract, allowing more UV into the eyes with the potential for causing damage.

This is probably "technically" true, but what is your point exactly...? Do you have evidence that shows the current light intensity used in tanks, although lower than "outside", is too low to properly dilate the eyes? I have never heard of this before.

2) We are anyway unlikely to ever approach anything close to outdoor light intensity even in the shade outdoors using traditional flourescents. Someone mentioned new tubes that are 2x as bright- so maybe my thoughts on this are dated now and 3 or 4 of those would become more bright than some shade.

Why do we need to match sunlight intensity? Growhouses easily beat natural sunlight but their goal is to ...well grow. Why do we need to match? I'm missing your point

and my subpoints are

1) What's the problem with full spectrum 10.0 lighting***NO!*** if they are safe for some diurnal lizards, they should be safe for all***NO!*** as long as the lighting is bright enough for the pupils to contract and prevent eye damage. At least I would guess so. It isn't like a lizard can produce too much d3 from the extra uvb...

ABSOLUTELY WRONG - You are making so many assumptions... (that are incorrect)...

You are completely ignoring ALL other UV related aspects as well. How about the most basic...UV damage? AKA Sunburn

(Or am I thinking about it wrong somehow? I'm totally open for better explanation as I haven't really thought much about this for many years- honestly until a year or two ago I really didn't think much about it as I have had no problems using whatever brand of UVB producing light. 20 years ago I started breeding chameleons with vita-lites and had no problems, and after vita-lites it seemed like any more UVB was just a wonderful bonus rather than a necessity. But a couple years ago I started using 10.0 lights because I have large enclosures for the most part, and haven't had a problem yet.

and

2) relatively bright light is good for diurnal lizards. A number of authors of books and magazine articles point out that feeding and breeding and activity and growth rates (sort of make sense if feeding is effected) are positively influenced by bright lighting for diurnal lizards...

Who are these "authors" ? Generalizing the care of all lizards into one lump category is a glaring mistake...



As a general note to all, if you are going to make any kind of scientific "claims" please support your claim with a SCIENTIFIC source. Conjecture and anecdotes just confuse and waste everyone's time.

what confuses me here is that some say we want a micro climate and i get that, but then what is the effect of placing cham enclosures outside.
if both enclosures have addiquate shade and hidding areas than as far as light is concerned what is the difference between a "microclimate" and an outdoor cage.

I don't understand your question here....our GOAL is to give them the *BEST* possible environment (exact amount of UV, exact amount of light, exact amount of heat, etc). However, we simply don't know what those "exacts" are. As a starting point, we simulate their natural environment because...that works. As advancements and discoveries are made in better keeping practices, we adapt our "microclimates" to be more and more specific for the ideals of the given animal.

What exactly do you mean by "microclimate"?

 

[bradley]

Here is a link to the lights im using. they are available in the US from one of the site sponsers. I was advised by the company to use the 12% due to the mesh in the way. It is great seeing peoples opinions and how thay do things from this thread!

http://http://www.arcadia-uk.info/product.php?pid=97&mid=12&lan=en&sub=&id=4

 

[fluxlizard]

It is much more complicated than that. What I am saying is that if something is a billion lumens, it tells you nothing about how "much" UV is in it. Lumens are not a measure of UV. If you want to start discussing UV values in sunlight, you need to be talking about UV measurements.

Unless you know the exact spectral distribution of sunlight (which changes based on a million factors btw) there is no way to accurately calculate or estimate the amount of UV in the light based on its luminosity.

I was never trying to do what you are thinking I am trying to do.

I think because I was addressing someone else who commented that we should not try to make our lights as bright in our cages as sunlight earlier in this thread. My comments about lumens and lux were only intended to address that point and had nothing to do with my comments about UVB. My point was that we aren't even coming close to doing that. Had nothing to do with UVB content.

I think its funny you consider this lucky. These calculations are pretty basic engineering calculations

I think it is funny how you believe everything I write is aimed specifically at what is going on in your brain at the time you read what I wrote rather than trying to understand what I am trying to communicate. Maybe it is a result of my inability to communicate effectively to you...

I don't think the calculations are lucky- I think the fact that marijuana growers need to know this same information (intensity and spectrum) and have made the information that we need to understand if we wish to understand artificial lighting and sunlight for our lizards available on the web a lucky coincidence.

This is probably "technically" true, but what is your point exactly...? Do you have evidence that shows the current light intensity used in tanks, although lower than "outside", is too low to properly dilate the eyes? I have never heard of this before.

Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought that is the whole reason UVB 10.0s are discouraged here on the forums. I've never had problems personally from the use of full spectrum lighting from vita-lites on up to 10.0 tubes but this is the reason I have read given from time to time here on the forums. It is also the reason I see the new lighting manufacturer's advertising in Reptiles Magazine that they now have more brightness to close the pupils and prevent eye damage from the UV. Enlighten me then why else they are discouraged. Because as I already pointed out, it can't be the idea that the body would manufacture too much d3...

Why do we need to match sunlight intensity? Growhouses easily beat natural sunlight but their goal is to ...well grow. Why do we need to match? I'm missing your point

Where did I say we need to match sunlight intensity? Never said it.
I simply said that we do not match it, nor do 99% of us come even close to matching it, unless our lizards are kept outdoors (like mine during the summer months).
But that doesn't mean that bright light (which isn't the same as outdoor intensity) is not good for our lizards...

ABSOLUTELY WRONG - You are making so many assumptions... (that are incorrect)...

You are completely ignoring ALL other UV related aspects as well. How about the most basic...UV damage? AKA Sunburn

Don't throw that out there without proving it. Show me a sunburned lizard from a 10.0 light.

And are you saying anyway that if 10.0s put off less UVB than shade (And I am talking UVB here- not lumens- a lot of UVB is bouncing around in the shade outdoors) that our lizards are going to sunburn? What the heck do they do in nature then if the shade does not allow adequate protection?

Also, take into account- in a properly set up terrarium, you shouldn't be forcing the lizard to expose itself to the UV any longer than it wants to be. Just like heat- the lizard needs to be able to self regulate. They have been shown to do this.

Who are these "authors" ? Generalizing the care of all lizards into one lump category is a glaring mistake...

I don't remember all for sure- goes back a few decades. I think some would include mailloux, schmidt, tamm, wallikewitz and another source cited in their book, leberre, devosjolli and others. The fact that bright light has significant effects on sun basking lizards including appetite, reproductive success, coloration, growth rate and activity level is so universally understood that there have been many authors saying this same thing for a long time now. My own experience is in agreement.

I rarely post anything that doesn't come from something I have read and/or isn't from my own actual experience, and often both. When I do or when it is my experience only I usually point it out.

At the same time, I'm not a walking reference guide. I remember important facts and ideas because I use them for breeding success. I don't store exact references away in my brain so I can recall them for people who wish to disbelieve me for their own foolish reasons. I often have an idea of where things come from and if I need to look something up for my own use I take the time to go back through my stacks of books and boxes of reptile related magazines and published papers and dig. But I don't see a great need to do this just to make rude people happy.

Feel free to take any idea I have and use a search engine or read some books or articles and determine their validity. Not my obligation to do all the work for you. I got mine from hours and years of reading, searching and experience. You want to demand that for free from me after being very rude? When people ask nicely I am always happy to point them in the direction I got my info from as best I remember. I'm not here to prove anything to you or anyone. I was only here to share.

And as for generalizing- generalizing care isn't so big a mistake as you seem to believe.

On one level, yes you are correct- specific species have specific needs. On another level once you begin to understand the big picture, you begin to see very general needs in common and ways of providing those needs.

I've cycled and bred dozens of species of lizards (Been a while since I counted, but probably 40 or 50 species) including a pretty fair number of chameleons (I mention cycling because I am not counting those that reproduced by dumb luck or dropped eggs after arrival here) over a few decades. I feel very comfortable generalizing care and tweaking those generalizations as necessary to meet specific needs.

When I was a relative beginner, I did not see generalization this way. I remember very clearly having a mindset very similar to yours as well as wanting everything very exact and specific. It is easy to only see the little picture if you only know a little bit, and easier to see the big picture and generalizations if you know more and have more experience so patterns appear and relevant connections form.

And yes, chameleons aren't very different from other lizards when it comes down to their basic biology and biological needs. The same basic needs for a chameleon to thrive are the same basic needs for other diurnal insectivorous lizards to thrive.

As a general note to all, if you are going to make any kind of scientific "claims" please support your claim with a SCIENTIFIC source. Conjecture and anecdotes just confuse and waste everyone's time.

Do the same favor for the rest of us.

Please give me some sources of 10.0 lighting damaging chameleons in some way other than eye damage (which you seem to not recognize as probable anyway). A bonus would be your claim of "sunburn" from these bulbs.

And while you are at it, try doing it while holding the "conjecture and anecdotes to a minimum" as you say. Please serve us up some scientific papers showing "sunburn" or other non-eye damage from the use of 10.0 bulbs in a terrarium.

 

[Venutus1]

Arcadia T5 output - (Screen in the way? - who cares! LOL)

I am excited because I finished my pics and testing of Arcadia T5's.


Now remember... you can actually create your own mini "Ferguson Zones" by doubling the screening say at the 1/ 3 end of a fixture to make a lower UV area ...
also the Peak is fairly a narrow band below the light in these LightYourReptiles.com fixtures.
So... If the cage is wide (like 18" - 24"+ the cham can get reduced areas of UV.
These t-5 would be great for free-rangers!

https://www.chameleonforums.com/uv-levels-new-arcadia-t5-bulbs-since-so-many-folks-asking-76858/

CHEERS!
Todd