My luck stinks........

[Greenstar]

Last week I got a few chameleons through my work 1.1 wierdershemi and 0.1 montium. Right off the bat I was already in a hole, they came in very dehydrated, tail bones and pelvic bones clearly visible. On top of that weirdershemi female had decided to lay 9 eggs in her shipping container and looked very weak. When I got home I quickly set them up got, them watered and fed. Luckily all of them ate almost immediately and drank copious amounts of water.

A couple days go by and everyone is visual improving, I decide to leave them outside for some sun in their cages while I went inland to the river. That day the tempature shattered the historical record for heat at 95 degrees in a town that typically sees 5-6 days over 75 each year and a day above 80 every couple of years. The montium unfortunately perished, undoubtably do to the stress of the heat.


Wierdershemi were doing fine till this morning when I found the female dead in the cricket bowl. I don't know what I was thinking by putting the crickets in such a deep bowl. I think she must have some how fallen into the bowl while attempting to get crickets and could not get out. She was severly bitten when I found her and I would imagine she died from the wounds.

The surviving male is putting on weight but he is far from in the clear yet. Is there anything food I can offer to stimulate more feeding, to help with weight gain? At what point should I begin to treat for parasites?


Thanks
Danny

 

[Tygerr]

What set-up do you have the surviving cham in (lighting, furnishing)? Is the cage still outside?

How is the dehydration situation progressing? What are you doing to address it?

As for food, if you're looking to fatten up an under-nourished cham mealworms and superworms are a good start. Wax-worms are also known to stimulate feeding.
Once you have him eating well and his weight is up, you can switch him over to healthier staples like crickets, roaches and silkworms.

Dr. Sue Donoghue's article on the Chameleons! Online E-Zine is quite informative: The Fire of Life

Regarding parasites, you shouldn't simply begin treatment for parasites by using a general medication ('shot-gunning'), but you should get a fecal test done by a vet as soon as possible - he'll prescribe the right treatment.
Do you know if the chams are wild-caught (WC) or captive-bred (CB)?

 

[Cameron B]

Danny,
Very sorry to hear of your loss! I would suggest that you do a vet visit ASAP. If there are any parasites or anything else out of the norm you can just tackle this now and get it out of the way so that your road to recovery is worth your while...by this I mean ensure (or give it your best effort) that the chameleon is getting the best care it can overall.

Again, really sorry to hear of your loss!

 

[Greenstar]

There is no further dehyrdation issue, he has dripper which runs 4x a day for 4 minutes, I mist his cage with a sprayer for about 20-30 minutes everyday. He drinks generally until he has had his fill and will occasionally lap up water which is availible on the leaves of the enclosure for most of the day. He is currently being offered, ground spiders, flies, and crickets. Though I have yet to see him eat a cricket, he eats flies greedily and will head to the ground to hunt the spiders as well. I will get some waxworms when I go back to work next week. He is all definitely WC.

I start school here next tuesday, I can preform a fecal myself in the lab then. I was just curious how long I should wait until I start using meds. I generally waited a month on the animals I used to import to treat, simply because meds can be severly dehydrating.

As far as the cage, he is in a 38g reptarium, with Small ficus, plus some branches off of my apple tree to provide better coverage. Usually he spends the days outside when the temps are good, between 60-70. and the nights in the house. Ambient humbidty is very high up here. I also have another set of enclosures, that are 2x4x4 outside that simply need to be screened. I will be transfering him into one of those once he is stable.

Any other ideas on what I can do to help this little guy out?

 

[nightcrawler]

i have never had a WC so i cant say for certain what to do, but i wouldent
give him treatment for the parasties untill you are sure he is up to weight.
if you give him it now he might not have enough fat stores or even enough
body mass to survive it.
i would feed him waxworms, superworms, and silkworms to get him fattened
up. like i said before i have never gone threw this but i would
just make sure that he is healthy to start with before giving him his
meds. it will be very hard on him otherwise.

what part of the world are you located in?

 

[mika]

Butterworms are also fattening

 

[Tygerr]

He is all definitely WC. I start school here next tuesday, I can preform a fecal myself in the lab then.

If he is WC, then there is certainly a high risk of parasites. Get that fecal done as soon as you can. As for when you can start treatment: provided the animal's health seems stable (eating and drinking well), start treatment as soon as you know what parasites it has (if any). I don't know what you're studying, so forgive me if I underestimate your veterinary ability, but if you're planning to medicate for parasites, it probably is best to consult a vet first. A good one will be able to assess the correct dosage for a cham that might still be a bit frail.

he has dripper which runs 4x a day for 4 minutes

His misting and drinking sounds good, but you might want to let that dripper run for a bit longer. The point of a dripper is to provide a more constant source of water for the cham, rather than sporadic mistings. Four minutes might not be enough time for the cham to even notice the dripping water... Most people let their drippers run for an hour or more. Several lengthy sessions per day may be required, but this is also balanced out by the frequency and duration of misting (you could mist for 15 minutes twice a day rather than one longer session).

Usually he spends the days outside when the temps are good, between 60-70. and the nights in the house.

Natural sunlight is great for a cham, and should be encouraged. However, changing his environment daily might stress him out a bit during the first month or so that you have him. Perhaps it's best to leave him in an indoor cage with adequate lighting (where temps/humidity are better controlled), and leave him alone as much as possible while he is acclimating.

Any other ideas on what I can do to help this little guy out?

Make sure that all those insects you are feeding him are properly gutloaded, and try to avoid feeding WC insects as you may be inadvertantly increasing his parasite load.

Good luck. Let us know how he gets on.

 

[Greenstar]

The next opition for the dripper is 15 minutes, since it is a janky dripper timer. I am going to leave it at 4 minutes, although if I do get another timer I will definitely heed your advice.

As for feeding I normally wouldn't want to feed wild caught feeders, but I think the chances of flower flies or ground spiders carrying a parasite that can be passed to reptiles around here is very slim. Also where I live is surrounded by organic only farms, so the chances of them have pesticides is next to nil. Also I just wanted to get something into these guys as quickly as possible.

Thank you all for the advice.

My question on supplements, how much and how often for a small montane cham?

On a good note, he is definitely in a lot better shape than when I got him. His pelvic bones are barely visible, and his tail has almost filled out.

However as my luck would have it I am about to make a 6 hour drive back to see my parents for 5 days. I normally would have found someone to take care of the animals, but it is an emergency. I plan on placing the cham cage in the back seat, covering it with a sheet and setting him up in a quiet room once i arrive. I really hope he can make the trip. This timing really sucks.

 

[Greenstar]

He made it through the trip back home and continues to eat and drink well, especially now that I have started mistinging with warm water. I have also begun to place him in the bathroom whenever I am taking a shower and he really apprecaites the steam and humidity.

The fecal came back suprisingly clean, though I only checked one stool sample and he seems to defecate multiple times a day. I will take a few more in on thursday and see if I can find anything.


I am however having trouble getting him onto crickets, he doesn't show much interest in them when they are in the bowl. But as soon as I toss some some ground spiders in the bowl he quickly comes down and finishes them all off, same if I throw a fly in the cage. Should I try silkies? There are also some communal caterpillars on our apple tree, shouldI try those? What about moths?

 

[chamlover]

Silkworms are an awesome feeder and most chams zap them up readily. As far as outside insects, unless you know exactly what they are, I would not feed them to him. And alot of insects will give reptiles parasites!!! I would go for silkworms or hornworms.

Sorry to hear about you losing the other ones.

Debby

 

[Tygerr]

The three main risks when feeding WC bugs are:
1) Parasites. As you've discussed already you can do your own fecals, so you should be able to monitor for any parasite problems that arise. A healthy cham should be able to deal with a small load of parasites without too many ill-effects anyway. But I would be cautious about parasites passed on to a cham that is still weak.

2) Insecticides. This is a bigger danger in suburban environments. Everyone sprays stuff on their flowers and lawns nowadays. You'd be surprised how far a flying bug travels each day. They could pick up pesticides miles away and carry them into your own yard. How about those apple trees? Are you sure no one is using anything to protect the apples from pests (probably not, since otherwise there wouldn't be caterpillars, would there? ;-))? In general it should be okay, but just be cautious about it.

3) Poisonous bugs. Some bugs are inherently poisonous and eating them could kill your cham. There are a lot of bug experts on these forums, so if you're unsure about a bug, post a pic of it on here for the members to identify. In nature, poisonous bugs usually carry warning colours. Red, yellow, orange and black can mean danger. A general rule (but not definitive rule) is that green and brown bugs are safe. Some caterpillars have hairs on them that may irritate the throat of your cham. Some bugs release defensive odours which could be unpleasant or toxic to your cham. Try read up as much as you can about the insect before introducing any new feeder to your cham.

As for silkworms, they're a brilliant feeder. If you can get your cham to eat them you certainly should.
Moths provide variety to your cham's diet (and chams seem to love flying insects), but not all of them are especially nutritious (some moths don't eat before they die - they're simply around to breed).
Have you tried roaches? Blaptica Dubia is my absolute favourite feeder insect!

 

[Greenstar]

Well I am glad to report he is doing much better. He has gotten settled into his routine and recognizes me as a food source as well as the mist bottle. I redid his enclosure with branches from a maple tree and some cybidium orchids. He definitely enjoy having broader leaf plants and seem to be fairly active. I have tried to roaches in the past, unfortunately I have nothing to feed adult dubia off too.

He is still being a turd about eating crickets and I haven't found a local mulberry tree yet, but I am looking. As soon as I find it I will start ordering some silkies to give them a try. I have adopted catching the flies then letting them feed on fruits and honey for a few hours before feeding him.

I don't know wether I will end up keeping him however as he is much higher maintence than the rudis or other I have done in the past. Hopefully I can get him off to someone with a female, and can breed this amazing species.


Thanks
Danny