Mister Twister has a bit of the wobblies! HELP!

[HolyToledo]

Just to reassure everyone, Mister's vet is one of the best in this area and comes very highly recommended. This is NOT a bad vet situation, it is a weird animal problem. Drs. Lewer and Brown are doing more research because Mister's situation is so odd...

He is now showing some signs of MBD but only in his leg bones. And if that isn't weird enough, his broken leg healed beautifully while all of this is going on with his other legs. So, everything is on hold while they do some research. I am still giving him his liquid calcium and keeping him quiet. He is alert and eating and drinking just not as much as usual.

It is suspected that it may be a problem caused by inbreeding? Dr. Lewer just read a journal article about that causing an inability to process D3 supplements properly. Doc is also researching natural sunlight vs. UVB bulbs affecting Mister's synthesis of the calcium and D3. Doc also told me that there is a new treatment out for MBD and so he is checking in to that also and I will be sure to let everyone know what I find out.

All of Mister's life, I put him in the sunshine at least a few times a week until this winter. Because it has been so cold and cloudy, he has only been in the sunshine a few days and now the problem has started. But, I have noticed he is more active, etc. because he has been in the sunshine for the last three days. Well, it seems that way to me but maybe it is just wishful thinking.

If it turns out that he can synthesise natural sunlight, we will be building him a viv out of glass that will not filter out the UVB so that he can get sun without being in the cold.

I do appreciate everyones input and support and realize that my postings did not really clearly describe the vet situation and made it sound like I was dealing with a vet that really didn't know what he was doing. He does. But, I will give him Dr. Alonzo's info on Monday when I talk to him again.

 

[Elizadolots]

Just based on what I've seen here and read around the internet, Dr. Alfonso is in the top tier of "experienced with chameleons". I can only think it would be a good connection for your vet to have, not just for Mister, but for future patients that come his way.

Sunshine is the best thing you can give him! I doubt it's your imagination that it perks him up.

 

[kinyonga]

Did you stop using the rat food in your insect container?

Bone issues are not only caused by a lack of calcium...but can be the result of an imbalance in phos., calcium, D3 and vitamin A. Overfeeding a chameleon can also push it towards MBD from what I understand.

Here's some information I hope will help you with supplementing, etc.....
Appropriate cage temperatures aid in digestion and thus play a part indirectly in nutrient absorption.

Exposure to UVB from either direct sunlight or a proper UVB light allows the chameleon to produce D3 so that it can use the calcium in its system to make/keep the bones strong and be used in other systems in the chameleon as well. The UVB should not pass through glass or plastic no matter whether its from the sun or the UVB light. The most often recommended UVB light is the long linear fluorescent Repti-sun 5.0 tube light. Some of the compacts, spirals and tube lights have caused health issues, but so far there have been no bad reports against this one.

A wide variety of insects that have been well fed and gutloaded should be fed to it.

Since many of the feeder insects we use in captivity have a poor ratio of calcium to phosphorus in them, its important to dust the insects just before you feed them to the chameleon at most feedings with a phos.-free calcium powder to help make up for it. (I use Rep-cal phosphorus-free calcium).

If you also dust twice a month with a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder it will ensure that your chameleon gets some D3 without overdoing it. It leaves the chameleon to produce the rest of what it needs through its exposure to the UVB light. D3 from supplements can build up in the system but D3 produced from exposure to UVB shouldn't as long as the chameleon can move in and out of it. (I use Rep-cal phos.-free calcium/D3).

Dusting twice a month as well with a vitamin powder that contains a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A will ensure that the chameleon gets some vitamins without the danger of overdosing the vitamin A. PrEformed sources of vitamin A can build up in the system and may prevent the D3 from doing its job and push the chameleon towards MBD. However, there is controversy as to whether all/any chameleons can convert the beta carotene and so some people give some prEformed vitamin A once in a while. (I use herptivite which has beta carotene.)

Gutloading/feeding the insects well helps to provide what the chameleon needs. I gutload crickets, roaches, locusts, superworms, etc. with an assortment of greens (dandelions, kale, collards, endive, escarole, mustard greens, etc.) and veggies (carrots, squash, sweet potato, sweet red pepper, zucchini, etc.)

Calcium, phos., D3 and vitamin A are important players in bone health and other systems in the chameleon (muscles, etc.) and they need to be in balance. When trying to balance them, you need to look at the supplements, what you feed the insects and what you feed the chameleon.
Please note that various supplements have various amounts of D3 and vitamin A and so some can be given more often than others. The idea still is not to overdo the fat soluble vitamins like D3 and prEformed vitamin A.

Here are some good sites for you to read too...
http://chameleonnews.com/07FebWheelock.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200605020...Vitamin.A.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200406080...d.Calcium.html
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/
http://web.archive.org/web/200601140...ww.adcham.com/
If you can't access the sites above that have the word "archive" in you can do it through the WayBackMachine.

 

[HolyToledo]

Oops, I posted Dr. Alonzo. I know it is Dr. Alfonso and I have the contact info. And if Dr. Lewer doesn't know him, yes, he should. So I will be passing on the info. Thanks.

I quit using the rat food as bedding as soon as I posted the info. And for gutloading, we have been using ingredients from SandraChameleons lists and recipes. Very little of the rat food was being consumed. It was under the litter and frass and just kept the bins drier and way less smelly cuz it worked kind of like clumping cat litter. I know that some was probably injested by the bugs but, did stop using it at all.

Supplements. Thanks to all of you on the forum, the Doc was very impressed that I was doing what I do as far as supplements.
Calcium w/o D3 every feeding because Mister is less than 1 year old.
Calcium w/D3 the first of the month.
Reptivite the fifteenth of the month.
Since all this started with the broken leg, I have been giving him the liquid calcium daily instead of the powder. And have upped the Ca+D3 to weekly now also.
I know that I have been using the Reptical products but am not sure it is the phosphorus free and will find out tomorrow. (I seem to have lost the labels that I thought I kept but I keep his supplements in little airtight containers that I bought at the local kitchen store).
Same with the pre- or pro-formed vitamin A. Will find out for sure...

And thanks for the links. I have read them before (I love this forum) but will re-read and pay alot more attention this time through.

UVB: Mister has both a linear and spiral bulb. Both are the 5.0. and are arranged so that he can get away from them both. The linear was replaced for a while with a 10.0 spiral (the store was sold out and backordered on the 5.0 for awhile) but I went back to the 5.0 spiral as soon as all this started. So his linear was replaced at 6 months and the spirals every 3 months.

Is there such a thing as too much UVB even when he can get away from them?

Like I said, leave it to me to get a weirdo cham. I have been following the advice here on the forum closely and done everything I should. Doc even agrees with me on that. But things just aren't right with this little guy anyway. So, if all the reading and research don't pan out, I will be devastated. I do not want to put this little guy down. He is just such a fighter and has hung tough through all of this and Doc agrees. But, I sure don't want him to suffer needlessly either. I will be consulting Dr. Alfonso myself before I go there but money is becoming a problem...

 

[HolyToledo]

Loss of a great local vet

Well, I found out why I didn't hear back from the vets this weekend. Dr. Brown, the senior partner in the practice, and Mister's first vet (he was Keiko "Free Willy" the orca whale's vet while he was here too) passed away last Friday.

Our community has lost a valuable, caring man.

So, I was really surprised and bummed when I came out of an appointment for myself, to see that I had missed a call from Dr. Lewer! In the message, he said that he did research and some consulting and has some new ideas, etc. And, then, he was out when I returned his call. So, maybe we will connect tomorrow, I hope?

But, once again, Mister seems to be better. His color is improving. He is eating more but urates are showing some dehydration. And, he seems to be having more trouble than usual swallowing when he is drinking...

Hopefully, the sunny weather here will continue. It really seems that being able to spend the time in the sunshine is helping Mister greatly. I don't think it is just my wishful thinking?

I will update as soon as I connect with the doc and let you all know what I find out.

Thanks again everyone for your help and support. We here are very grateful for all your expertise.

 

[HolyToledo]

Grrr

So, Mister is apparently feeling better and that is a good thing, right?

Not so helpful though when it comes to medicating him with the liquid calcium! Now, he is spitting out anything that has a hint of calcium in it or on it! Even when I force him to take it into his mouth, he spits it out and "runs" off to his nesting corner. He won't let me re-wrap his front leg and that leg is still not stable.

I sure don't want him to get worse again just so he is easier to manage but now he feels just well enough to be a very difficult patient!

PS: still nothing from the vet but I have been calling with updates and know we are still on hold because the situation isn't as drastic. But I left a call to please have the vet call back with info SOON! I know he has a bunch going on and they are short-handed and all but I really would like to know just what he found out... Will make sure to let everyone know what the good news is supposed to be.

 

[Elizadolots]

Fighting you is, indeed, a good sign.

Can you mix the calcium with some water and drip it on his nose?

 

[HolyToledo]

I got some of the water additive/treatment with calcium in it and today he won't even drink the water (maybe only when I'm offering it?). But his dripper is running...

No poo or urate yesterday or so far today to see if he is drinking on his own still but that's what I'm hoping.

Thanks for the quick reply though. Do you think that the bit of liquid calcium he is getting in his mouth before he can spit out the bugs is good enough that I can just try giving him plain water again for awhile and see if he will drink that?

 

[HolyToledo]

More good than bad the last couple of days.

Still refusing anything with any type of calcium. But, the same day I started having problems getting him to eat the calcium injected dubias, he started getting the white flaky (not shed) around his nostrils. Forum research says possible over-supplementation?? Then he even refused to take the water w/ Ca added but started drinking plain water when I offered that yesterday. So, no calcium today or yesterday except what he couldn't get out of his mouth after spitting out the med-roach. But I figure hydration is more important until we get in to see the doc early next week. Will try a med-bug again tomorrow. Maybe I will have better luck since he went on hunger strike today...

Good news is, his legs don't seem as soft and there are no new bows or bends. And, I got his front leg wrapped some. Not snug enough but it is more stable than no wrap at all. Then, I got him to nap a bit by snuggling him against my neck (his favorite place) and snuck a splint on the back lower leg that had the worst softness/bow starting. He wasn't too happy about that but is moving around a lot more stable now than he was. It was just so pitiful to watch him trying to get anywhere but he won't stay "quiet" for long unless I make him really mad and then put him in his "roosting" spot. But, he doesn't nap, just hangs out and glares at me, so that is an improvement. The only naps he takes now are early in the am right after waking when he's warming up (he won't sleep where it is anything above 65 or 70C) or if I will let him snuggle in the afternoon/early evening.

So, overall, some improvement but still rough going. Can't wait to finally hear what the vet has to say

 

[Elizadolots]

You may have reached the point where he's getting as much calcium orally as he can take. The white crust is not the least bit harmful though, so I would try to get as much calcium in him as you can. I don't know how expensive the liquid calcium is, but you might try putting it in the dripper water. He might just be rebelling at being forced to drink.

 

[HolyToledo]

Thanks for the reassurance about the crusties being not so bad.

I have been giving him the liquid calcium injected into the bugs but when he started spitting them out, I found some water treatment calcium additive (Exo-Terra) that I put in his water. But then he stopped drinking the water with that in it. As soon as I offered him plain water, he drank quite a bit. So, plain water it was today too. He spit out the calciumed bug but ate one that I injected with plain water just to see if he was tired of the darn things being so much liquid. His urates are darkening even worse (starting to get too orange for my liking) so I am hoping that he will keep drinking if I don't put the calcium in the water. And should I be getting him distilled water instead of bottled water? I thought it was Aquafina that was the best one but now I can't find that post I saw about the water. Grrr.
Thank goodness the weekend is almost over and I get to call the doc tomorrow!

 

[HolyToledo]

Update: Wooo hooo!!!!!


Finally got with the Doc.
He has been consulting with his buddies at the Portland Zoo.
Mister is definitely a weirdo! But a tough weirdo.
The "new" treatment for calcium loss is not readily available? I will get more info at the next visit (week and a half from now). I was just so excited to hear that the doc thinks he is doing so well too that I forgot to get all the info!

I am supposed to continue trying to force the med-bugs cuz even if he spits them out, Mister is getting a little dose of the Ca.

Metacam every three days or so only. And that is when I should change the splints on his legs. If he keeps moving his wrap off his shoulder and up around his neck, take it off until the next dose of Metacam.

Not too dehydrated but if worsens, back in for another "water-balloon" shot. (that is what I call it when they have injected fluids for rehydration).

Continue with the effort and treatment I have been giving. And back in for a re-check in a week and a half!

Sooooo, great news overall. Here's praying things continue to improve for Mister Twister.

Also, please keep Jannb and her babies in your thoughts and prayers too. Hopefully, she too will have a bit of better news...

 

[Elizadolots]

Sounds like things are going well.

 

[HolyToledo]

Things are definitely on the upswing with Mister Twister right now. Hopefully, with hard work and persistence that will continue. I have alot of studying to do now.

Thank you all for all the advice and support. We wouldn't be here without this forum.

Speaking of which: One of the important things that the doc said is that because of the popularity of chams now, there are bound to be lots of other chams out there that are sub-quality animals. Not all of us have been lucky or smart enough to find quality animals to start with! These poor critters will have an inhibited ability to process supplements and will have to rely mainly on their bodies to process all the vitamins, etc. that they need. Because Mister is one of these chams, I have a lot of studying to do on the subject of nutrition. I know that there are a great number of sources on here and thank you all for that.

I'm just really glad to find this out while Mister is still alive and has a chance...

There are probably quite a few people out there that have lost chams because of this problem without finding out what happened for sure or why their critters got sick. It has taken quite a bit of time and money and work to find this out and I would like to point it out to save others the heartache and headache we have been having. I want to re-post part of this message as a new thread/warning to others whose chams may have this issue so they can catch it even earlier or just start out with the nutrition thing right in the first place instead of relying on the supps. and failing like Mister and I have... So, any suggestions as to where I should post it? Nutrition, husbandry, health clinic? How do I go about posting it across the board, everywhere! People need to know and be warned!

 

[Elizadolots]

Believe me, when Hollywood started putting cute chameleons in multiple movies in the same year, this board was aflame with concern over the resultant over breeding, over importation and uninformed purchasing that was going to happen. We've all been on the lookout for such situations.

The number of stories involving chameleons named Pascal and Rango is staggering.

So, I tend to think this board is not where it needs to be posted. This is where people come after they've realized their chameleon is in trouble.

I wish I knew where you could go to publicize this issue. Maybe some of the other posters will have an idea.

 

[HolyToledo]

That's what I thought too. That's why I didn't post the warning.

I came to the forum when I received my chams as a surprise gift. I had always wanted one but thought they were above my ability to care for and way too expensive to purchase let alone maintain. But after receiving them, I figured I'd better do the best I could by them and found this forum along with other resources. I wish that I had paid more attention to this forum than some of the other info and paid dearly with the loss of my Miss Piss from choking on her substrate when a cricket escaped and got to the bottom of her cage. Since then, I only refer to info on here and ask the very informed and experienced members. (I even check out what the vet has to say with the info I can get here on the forum. Sorry Doc--LOL).

I'm not too sure how many people come here BEFORE getting chams and that is the people who need to be warned by Mister's story.

I thought my little guy came from a reputable source so maybe he is just a bad one out of a bunch? No matter. I still love him and will do what I can to keep him as healthy as possible.

So I have a lot to learn about nutrition and balancing his diet better. Once again, this forum is a godsend! And I can't say thanks often enough!

 

[Elizadolots]

My first chameleon was a gift too. He stuck with me through a learning curve that was quite hard on him. Finding this board has made life for my current chameleons much more pleasant and healthy.

 

[HolyToledo]

Finally got in to see the vet!

So is it good news or bad news when the vet is surprised to see that Mister is still with us?!?

Doc said that Mister definitely has a strong will to live and he thinks most other chams would have given up before now! So doc was really surprised to see the little man climb right out of the "hospital" bin as soon as the top opened up.

Doc is amazed at the progress with the first broken leg but still perplexed that
it healed and has remained his most stable leg while all the others have developed problems. And, why the legs and not the more fragile bones that have been affected?

Weight is down to 97g (but that just means less weight on those legs, right?)

Grip in all four mittens is still amazingly strong and he can pinch hard enough to draw blood if you move him too fast for his liking.

Ribs still look to be fine.

Casque: straight, sturdy, and even still has fat pad.

Jaw is still strong and not at all mis-shaped.

Inside mouth is only a little on the pale side but looks real good otherwise.

Doc doesn't know what else to do for Mister other than for me to continue what I am already doing. Because his condition is so fragile, doc doesn't want to do ANYTHING that might stress the little guy out at all.

IMO Mister doesn't drink as much as he should and seems to have some trouble swallowing. His urates are yellow to orange and concern me but doc said that since he isn't showing any other signs of dehydration, doc didn't want to stress him out by giving him another "water balloon" treatment right now.

No more splinting the leg(s) in order to cause him less stress with the fight he puts up.

Metacam med-bug every three days ("cuz he's definitely got to be in some pain").

And "if Mister does decide to give up and quit eating or drinking on his own, we'll talk again then." Unless I feel that his quality of life determines otherwise...

So, I guess only time will tell. And I am still working on improving his nutrition with gutloading since he wants nothing to do with fruits or veggies so far. Some kind of soup/mash forcefeeding may be in our near future. So, I will be doing more research and asking alot of questions in the nutrition area.

And I am still checking about the UVB issue...

So, you tell me. Was this good news or bad news?

 

[Elizadolots]

It was good news. Fighters are winners.

I tend to agree with you about the hydration, but I think you need to concentrate on getting him to drink. Try dripping water onto the tip of his nose with a plastic eyedropper. I had great luck pushing water through the screen whenever Spike (my first) was climbing on the wall.

 

[HolyToledo]

It was good news. Fighters are winners.

I tend to agree with you about the hydration, but I think you need to concentrate on getting him to drink. Try dripping water onto the tip of his nose with a plastic eyedropper. I had great luck pushing water through the screen whenever Spike (my first) was climbing on the wall.

We have a dripper running all the time. And he does drink a little from it. I also mist him 3 or 4 times a day, just light mistings to keep the humidity up but it does entice him to the dripper on the rare occasion. I also offer him water by dripping it on his nose 4 or 5 times throughout the day and he will drink that way sometimes. I also will inject a wax worm or dubia with some water instead of the Ca or Metacam.

But the brat still won't have anything to do with the water if it has the calcium supplement added to it.

When he does drink though, he only takes a few slurps and then does his heavy swallowing struggle/effort thing that he does. He has always done this when he eats or drinks, it just seems a little worse now that he has been sickly. I am trying to get it on video but whenever the camera is around, he is camera shy and won't do much of anything.

The day or two after seeing the vet are usually hunger/drinking strike days and today was no exception. The only thing I could get into him was a waxie with Ca and one with water. Hopefully, since the vet didn't do anything to him but hold him a little, I can get him back to eating and drinking tomorrow...