Mister Twister has a bit of the wobblies! HELP!

HolyToledo

New Member
I have had my male veiled chameleon, Mister Twister, since he was two weeks old and he is 9 months old now. We live 7 miles inland from the central coast of Oregon state (on the west coast of the United States). He comes out to socialize every few days to a few times a day--its pretty much up to him how often and for how long but if it has been a few days, I try to coax him to come on to my hand by lightly touching his feet until he comes out (I don’t want him to get to where he stresses out with any kink of contact like some of the chams I know of). Mister eats mealworms, wax worms, crickets, fruit flies and the occasional housefly. The mealworms and crickets are bedded in high-grade rat food powder and are fed fruits and veggies on the “accepted “ food list. He eats a few small crickets or about a dozen medium mealworms daily. Wax worms are given as extra treats on occasion. And the special dalapia? roach when I can get them. His food is supplemented daily with the calcium (have missed the occasional day here and there to be honest), gets Ca+D3 and Reptivite every two weeks alternately. Fecal matter and urates look good usually but last two days, his urate has darkened some and today he has refused to drink even half of his usual from the tube.

Mister lives in an Exo-Terra 36x24x36 two door glass vivarium that sits on top of the dresser. Exo-Terra hood has Repti-Glo 10.0 and two Night-Glo bulbs. Daytime (from 8ish am to when he goes to his bed around 10ish pm) all the lights in the hood are on and he has a heat lamp on in the front left corner of his tank. At night, one of the Night-Glos and the Repti-Glo are off but the heat lamp and one Night-Glo stays on.. The temperature measured on four thermometers runs during the day: 85C just under the heat lamp, 80C under the daytime Night-Glo, 75C right under the Night-Glo that is always on, and 70C right under the UVB. Bottom temp is right around 60C to 65C. Night time temp where he usually sleeps is 65C. On chilly nights he might go to his other nest that is 70C at night (right between and under the Night-Glo and heat lamps). The water dripper system has two ports(aquarium air-line valve) and water drips down a live bamboo plant 24/7. The other valve goes to a tube and he is offered water a number of times a day with the hose. He is also misted daily--the number of times each day depends on his urates and stage in shedding since misting is not a drinking source for him and he only very rarely drinks off the fake foliage now that he is older. Overall, the humidity runs right around 75-85% measured with two hygrometers (one at the top and one at the bottom.
Am using a coco-dirt/sand and turtle rocks mix for substrate. And I take it out and bake it dry every month or two. The bamboo is the only live plant in a planter of marbles/water. All his other plants are Exo-Terra and so are his vines.

Three months ago, Mister was acting weak in the hips so I rescheduled his 6 mos checkup for a bit early and everything checked out fine and the x-rays showed good bones, etc. Doc said maybe he strained himself trying to breed with our girl so they got separate cages with the above described setup that same day. After the separation, he took his time adjusting to being alone in the cage but finally got back to his usual self. When she passed away one and a half months ago, he went through another “down” period for about a week and then almost back to normal (he isn‘t coming out as much as he used to and isn’t quite as reluctant to go back to his cage, and he doesn‘t try to go to hers anymore either). Once in a while for a day or so, his left hind leg seems a bit weak again but he has always bounced right back. Night before last he was a bit limpy and cranky so I left him alone. A bit more limpy yesterday am but last night even more than usual, and avoided coming out. This morning, still cranky and didn’t drink as much as usual and he doesn’t want to move around any more than necessary (did go down to poop in his usual spot) and has been back and forth across his favorite vine but that’s all and when he does move around, and when I convinced him to come out, he is a bit shaky and a little wimpy acting.

My questions are, with everything being great 3 months ago, am I somehow seeing the early stages of MBD or something else altogether? The only thing that changed is we went from a Repti-Glo 5.0 to a 10.0 when it was time to change the bulb cuz the store was out of the 5.0 bulbs. He looks good and is partway through a shed that is taking longer than usual so I have been misting a bit more than usual and it is time for the dirt bake so, is it possible that he has a cold or even something else?
 
Hi! Welcome to the board. I love the name...

I would ditch the night light for sure. I would ditch the night heat unless it gets below 60 in your house. They benefit from a dark, cooler night.

This board doesn't typical recommend substrate.

It does seem there is some larger health issue. You didn't notice it earlier because chameleons are experts at hiding problems until they are serious.

Minimally, I would suggest you up the hydration. If necessary, get a dropper and drip water onto his nose.

Could you maybe post some pictures? Get full body shots from both sides.

That would be really helpful.

Hopefully the folks here can give you some help.
 
I'm waiting for the pic to get to my e-mail from my phone...

He has no double-joints or bends in any legs. His casque and jawline are both still firm. No eye bulging. No noticible raspy breathing or anything else. Just a bit weak and wobbly.

I am offering water about every half hour. Should I get some liquid calcium or pedia-lyte and how do I make him drink if he doesn't want to? I put his hose up to him and he closes his eyes and turns his head. Same tihing when I drip the water on his nose and/or at his mouth.
 
Welcome to the forum. The info on dumbing the lights at night is spot on. Lights disturb their sleep cycle. How far is your cham from the 10. UVB? That might bother him. You gave us a lot of good info about your set up but a few things I could use more info on.Why no live plants, except the one/ They are much better for your cham, and will naturally humidify the cage. About the substrate, is there anything he could get in his mouth? That could be a major issue. Baking the substrate you use sounds good, but not using it would be better.

This is a link to a thread by a senior member showing how to set a cham up in glass. Hope it helps

https://www.chameleonforums.com/everyone-who-knows-you-cant-keep-chams-glass-31937/
 
I have removed all of the substrate--it was due for a baking soon anyway. I am looking for more live plants for his viv. Really want a ficus but can't find one to fit yet. Will be more serious about getting more live plants to help keep up the humidity since no substrate makes it alot drier! And I am going to put in a money bamboo that I had in with Miss Piss before she died--just wanted to repot it first...
 
Thanks for the link and that info was the main reason that I put Mister and Miss back in glass tanks. I heard glass was a no-no so got them a screen cage and they both freaked. They started out in glass and I think they were not happy with the increased air-flow, temp fluctuation, etc. of the screen. Both settled right back in in a bigger glass tank. And the vet said that from all appearances glass viv was doing them no harm.

The substrate was part of the reason Miss Piss died. She liked crawling around on the bottom and when she ate a cricket she got some of the dirt in her resp. tract and choked (probable cause of death). I just hadn't removed his cuz he never has been one for going anywhere close to the bottom except to poop. He watches the crickets but won't eat them unless they come up onto the branches.
 
I got one of the pics of Mister to upload but I don't know how to post it here. It is in my gallery though...
 
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I am sorry to here that Mister is not doing well. I totally agree with everthing said above. The only other thing I can think of to try other than making all the changes above is to try some liquid calcium. You could give him a couple of drops everyday until you can get him to the vets.
 
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everyone has given you great advice but I just wanted to add that I would not run the dripper 24/7. I don't think it needs to be run at night as they are sleeping and would not be drinking. I know it does help with humidity though but unless you have a great drainage system I was thinking of it from a standpoint where the water is sitting in the cage all the time.
 
It was a long night for us but so far, so good. He was a bit chilly this morning (cage at 60 through the night and came right to my warm hand this morning. He snuggled in to my neck and took a nap for a couple of hours. Then I took him across to the reptile store (All Things Reptile)where the owner is pretty knowledgeable about critters. LeRae helped me and checked him out under the lighted magnifier. He does have a pinpoint sized dark hole (almost looks like a tiny blackhead but with no noticiable swelling or anything in the hole--maybe a cricket bite or very early stage of mouth rot?) on his upper, inner lip/gum area and a tiny irritation inside his lower lip right where they line up perfectly. We cleaned them with sterile saline. His legs and casque are firm and straight. No funny spots along his spine and his ribs are all straight and firm to the touch. His jaws are nice and firm also. So those are all good signs so far, right?

He hasn't eaten yet today but did finally drink quite a bit of pedia-lyte and water from his dripper hose that I hooked up right up by where he has been hanging out. And, he seems a bit less wobbly and not quite as weak and is moving around a bit more than he was yesterday.

Hopefully we will make it through until his vet is available...
 
Sleeping during the day isn't a good thing. They aren't nappers.

I'm sure your vet will run a fecal test, if he doesn't suggest it, you should. You should come to the office with a fresh fecal sample in a clean plastic container (though, he'll likely provide a sample during the trip to the vet's or on the vet's exam table).
 
You said..."The mealworms and crickets are bedded in high-grade rat food powder"...what's in the rat food in the way of phosphorus, calcium, vitamin D3 and vitamin A?
 
Update on Mister Twister:

Woo Hoo! Went to see the vet today and the verdict wasn't great but at least it isn't MBD. He also doesn't have mouth rot (just a bite or poke probably from one of the crickets).

Vet said the problem is is that Mister is a "poor doer". Not the greatest news. He is a bit dehydrated and a little anemic, has signs of parasites in the poo and maybe some gut infection from that. Doc rehydrated, gave Mister a dose of bug zapper and an antibiotic dosing for the next few days.

Also told me that Mister looks really good for a "poor doer" but that he is smaller than he should be at nine months. But the doc said that I have been keeping him at too low of temps and the lowest parts of the cage should be above 75 and that his basking temp should be as high as 95 or more. I am also supposed to be keeping the full spectrum light on for 16 hours. Other than that I've been doing okay i guess...

So, thanks to all for your help and suggestions and support to get us through until I could take him in. And thanks to the Doc for the good news that Mister Twister may be a "poor doer" its nothing that can't be dealt with... It was bad enuf losing Miss Piss last month, so the thought that I might lose Mister was devastating!
 
oh, "poor doer" means that he probably would not have survived in the wild. He was probably the runt of the batch or close to it. Low man on the totem pole for sure. And, means that Mister absolutely should not be used for breeding. And it means that I will have to be very diligent on his care. Sounds like we may have quite a few more visits to the Doc in our future...

That's okay. I love him anyway and I think he is a beautiful guy.
 
After reading over all that your vet said I would highly recommend that you find a new vet that has more experience with chameleons. Sleeping in the day is a sign of illness. What parasites did the vet say that he has and please list the meds that he gave you. I keep my adult male veileds basking spot at 89. I don't know what a full spectrum light is but he needs complete darkness for 12 to 14 hours each night. You only need 2 lights on his enclosure a 5.0 Reptisun and a reguar household bulb, 40 to 60 watt to get his basking spot up in the high 80's or VERY LOW 90's.
 
Once again...
You said..."The mealworms and crickets are bedded in high-grade rat food powder"...what's in the rat food in the way of phosphorus, calcium, vitamin D3 and vitamin A?

Also...you said..."we went from a Repti-Glo 5.0 to a 10.0"...does he have enough room in his cage to get away from it?
 
I'm still very concerned about Mister. I am keeping him at 85 right now. We got a new 5.0 light but when he was under the 10.0 yes he had plenty of room and shady places to get away from it. Our temps in the house are chilly at night so I use the heat-glo to keep him warmer at night but didn't want to raise his temps too suddenly and he seems happier right around 80-85. Sorry I didn't get right back about the bug bedding and am looking into the contents--thank you for pointing that out to me, duh? Why didn't I think about anything but figured the protien would be good for him...

He's not too thrilled about eating or drinking so I've been forcing him, very careful that he doesn't respirate it and even after getting the worm medicine from the vet, the little man still hasn't pooped. So, I'm off to search the forum for how to encourage poo production...

Thanks for all the help. It is appreciated. And, just wanted to let you know his vet is supposed to be a good one for reptiles and even works with zoos and people bring critters quite a distance to see him, but I realize that he isn't the final word on what to do. That's why I am so thankful for this forum!
 
As far as meds, they gave him a sugar water injection, de-wormer ( will call today to find out exactly what kind of worms and what the med was) and anti-biotic is Baytril.
 
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