Mice

kirekameleon

kirekameleon

New Member
I have been looking to purchase a male and female mouse but I cannot locate any site that sells them other than frozen. Does anyone know where I can get a male and female so I can breed for pinkies. Petsmart only sales males.

kire
 
The individual I got my Cham from said they gave him a pinkie once a week for a treat and he would go nuts when he saw it. It sounds like many do not think it is a good idea so I think I will refrain from offering a pinkie to him.

1.0 Calyptratus-Chauncy
 
Each store only has one gender to prevent what you are trying to do and prevent unwanted births. Just call the other stores in your area and ask what gender their mice are. You'll find what you need.
 
If you are thinking of breeding for pinkies for your chameleon then STOP. Chameleons are insectivores, not carnivores, and excessive animal proteins in the diet lead to renal failure and gout due to excessive uric acid buildup in the blood from protein breakdown. Animal proteins are different than plant proteins - they are not broken down in the same way. Gout is incurable in chams and extremely painful - it's a death sentence. I've seen it happen, feeding vertebrates is not beneficial to chams, regardless of what you've seen on youtube. Look up plenty of other threads that have extensively gone over this topic. If you want a more varied diet then get hornworms, silkworms, butterworms, roaches, etc. to give to your cham and improve your gutloading techniques. Giving them pinkies is not doing them any favors, only harm.
 
Bearded dragons are no carnivores, too. They get same problems Dayna already listed. And it's really not seldom that you find broken down renals in reptiles' necropsy, mostly suffered from too high protein and less water supply. Maybe those animals would love eating mice ... but they're no healthy food given regularly at all.
 
Thank You

Yeah, I have scratched that idea based upon what I have read on here and elsewhere. I have a meal worm colony, dubia colony, crickets (which I hate, but he loves them so I will keep using them). Can anyone else suggest some insects that are easy to form colonies. I heard some insects are irradiated(sp) so you cannot form your own colonies. I am looking for easy and good production.

1.0 Calyptratus-Chauncy
 
Alexl said:
Bearded dragons are no carnivores, too. They get same problems Dayna already listed. And it's really not seldom that you find broken down renals in reptiles' necropsy, mostly suffered from too high protein and less water supply. Maybe those animals would love eating mice ... but they're no healthy food given regularly at all.
Click to expand...

bearded dragons do eat pinkies... the care sheets even say so.
 
Feeding and diet
Bearded Dragons are omnivorous, meaning that they eat
both animal and plant matter. Any and all food items that
your Bearded Dragons eat should be no bigger than the
space between their eyes. If the food items are bigger than
the space between their eyes it can cause impaction and/or
hind leg paralysis. Either way your Beardie will suffer
horribly.

Feeding your Bearded Dragon will require handling bugs. Yes, we said BUGS... Crickets, mealworms, wax worms, oh! And possibly pinkies. Bearded Dragons are omnivores, meaning that they will eat veggies and small animals. Insects should be a daily staple of your Dragons diet and greens should be available at all times
 
Diet and care sheets

FredChameleon said:
bearded dragons do eat pinkies... the care sheets even say so.
Click to expand...

If we followed what care sheets tell us we may or may not be doing the right thing. Care sheets can be poorly written.

With omnivorous reptiles animal proteins can be given in moderation as long as hydration is maintained at optimal levels. I would speculate an insectivorous reptile wouldn't be harmed by being given animal protein on a very rare basis.

Chams in the wild have been observed eating small birds and rodents and green iguanas have been observed raiding birds nests and eating the egs or chicks.

Moderation is the key as well as proper hydration. An increase in complex proteins and fats in the diet requires an increase in the water intake as well. Chams being prone to dehydration can't process the metabolites of complex proteins without putting stress on their renal systems.

Safest bet is to stick to insect only.
 
The care sheet is definitely wrong then!

Bearded Dragon is an omnivore, meaning that he needs a balanced diet of meat and vegetable matter.
A hatchling dragon will eat mostly small insects. As your dragon grows, he will start to eat more vegetable matter.
The diet of a juvenile dragon (2-4 months of age) will consist of approximately 80% insects and 20% greens.
Young dragons should be fed 2-3 times daily. If insufficient food is fed, young dragons may nip at the tails and toes of their cage mates.


Only on rare occasion should adult bearded dragons consume pinkies.. ( I personally would never. due to problems stated above! )

Be sure the size of food you feed is proportional to your dragon's size.
Malnourishment, seizures, and intestinal blockages can occur if hatchlings and juveniles are fed insects too large for them to capture or digest.

Plant matter should make up approximately 20% of your dragon's diet and should consist mainly of green leafy vegetables.
You may also include other vegetables. Fruit should make up the smallest portion of the diet.
Shred or tear vegetables and fruits into small pieces and mix them together to encourage your dragon to eat all that is offered, and not just pick out his favorite foods.
 
Ya know....we have the pinkies debate over and over. What it comes down to is your choice. There is no need to feed pinkies on a regular basis. Possibly there are times feeding pinkies is helpful (though, not necessary). If you want to do it, then it's probably okay to do it occasionally, not regularly.

The reality is that unless you have some big reptiles you are not going to benefit from breeding your own pinkies. I have a friend who's had snakes for years and she has never bred her own feeders. They just don't eat that often.
 
FredChameleon said:
bearded dragons do eat pinkies... the care sheets even say so.
Click to expand...

Who is to say that when they said animal proteins they didn't mean insects? Those are animals yes? Most people aren't familiar with the difference of protein breakdown so it was probably just poorly worded.

And who wrote that care sheet? How do you know they have any idea of what they're talking about at all? The pet store caresheets are contracted out to be written and that person may have never owned a reptile in their life.

"The New Chameleon Handbook" by Francois le Berre p54: "UV rays are high energy waves. In their presence the precursor of vitamin D is transformed into vitamin D3. However it was recently established that this photochemical process does not occur in chameleonids."

This book actually says to NOT use UV bulbs in this and the next paragraph. It's published and people buy it. Does that make it correct? I think we all know better and that this statement is false.

Just like the internet, anyone can write and distribute anything they want and no one checks over it for mistakes unless it's going to a peer-reviewed scientific journal. Use your discretion and knowledge to check the facts yourself. Alexl and I gave you scientific facts from experience in the veterinary field and based off medical training that contradict what you read on one little caresheet. Make your own educated decisions.
 
I'm not advocating pinkies, nor am I against them but do have to jump in on some facts. Protein is made of 20 amino acids and one imino acid and all critters are made of a mixture of these. There would be differences such as chitin in the insect and hair on a mammal, both of which are protein structures that cannot be digested, or calcium bone in the mammal and not in the arthropod, etc. But, I cannot see that a pinkie would cause a protein overload vs the same weight of say...silkworms. Once again I don't know if pinkies are good or not, but I just can't see it being from protein overload. There may be something bad in mammals and I think we would all agree that mammals would likely be a rare, occasional snack in the wild. So I will have to say that my gut feeling would be to rarely feed if ever (I don't) but believe as someone has already stated that a well hydrated cham is the best way to avoid excess protein. So, before you lambaste me for not being anti-pinkie, I am not either way, just trying to understand the factual basis for either side.
 
Insect size rodents

We have found that nutritionally adult mammals are superior to pinkies. The nutrition comes from the bones and organs not the flesh and fat so much. What has worked for us are Pygmy Myce(I just like to spell mice as myce for pygmies) Here is a picture of a young adult female next to a ruler. Note the ruler is in centimeters. Adult as far as feeding is concerned is pretty much anything that has fur and open eyes so weaned are even smaller than adult

ruler.jpg


______________________

Digby Rigby [email protected]
Reptiles, green banana & other roaches and bulk dubia sales include telephone number

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
To sum up - chams will eat mice, but it is not healthy to give them often. Bearded Dragons are bloody dustbins and will eat any old thing. The care sheet doesn't appear to me to be wrong. No point arguing semantics ( 'It's an isectivore' - 'No, it's an omnivore') They are much healthier on almost entirely insect diet (With gut load and vits and uv of course).
Digby Rigby said:
We have found that nutritionally adult mammals are superior to pinkies. The nutrition comes from the bones and organs not the flesh and fat so much. What has worked for us are Pygmy Myce(I just like to spell mice as myce for pygmies) Here is a picture of a young adult female next to a ruler. Note the ruler is in centimeters. Adult as far as feeding is concerned is pretty much anything that has fur and open eyes so weaned are even smaller than adult
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Click to expand...
Digby you're a genius - I knew pinkies weren't as good so how have I not heard of this before, and why didn't I think of it myself? I have a baby monitor to wean and two hungry Chams - I don't need many but that's literally the best idea I've heard all year.
 
Insect size rodents rodent size insects

Here is a past post of mine since you also have monitors. It also has more information on the pygmy myce. With monitors you also need rodent size insects! When you keep monitor they die. One must be kept by their monitors in order for them to thrive. or as we like to say around here "Keeping reptiles is merely practice for being kept by monitors"!

https://www.chameleonforums.com/feeding-larger-size-chameleon-32711/#post300624
______________________
Digby Rigby [email protected]
Reptiles, green banana & other roaches and bulk dubia sales include telephone number
 
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