Meller's

[JoeDigiorgio]

Hello everybody. I'm pretty new here on the forums but I'm seriously researching my latest goal of keeping and breeding a large species of chameleon and I need to reach out to the experts on here for some guidance. I live in south Florida and having finally completed some home improvement projects this year I can now focus on making this project happen for real.

I desperately wanted to get into keeping Parson's but after a lot of thought I know Meller's will be the more realistic species for me to successfully meet the requirements for. My biggest stumbling block is actually acquiring the animals. I know some cb melleri were available recently but at that time I simply wasn't able to accommodate one yet due to active home improvements and my own flip flopping between them and Parson's. I'm afraid I missed a huge opportunity.

Can you guys point me in the best direction for either captive bred or at least reliable importer/retailers? Even good Facebook groups or members to reach out to here? I don't have networking established compared to a lot of members here so I'm hoping for valuable advice. Thanks in advance everyone. I assure you I've done my homework on the species and will not be shy about asking for help should the need arise.

 

[Angelwolf]

I give you credit for being able to stand back and wait for the right time/species! I'm here to tell you, that's really not an easy thing to do! I don't know of any breeders specifically, but I would recommend talking to @Matt Vanilla Gorilla , or maybe one of our sponsors. Good luck!

 

[jajeanpierre]

Hello everybody. I'm pretty new here on the forums but I'm seriously researching my latest goal of keeping and breeding a large species of chameleon and I need to reach out to the experts on here for some guidance. I live in south Florida and having finally completed some home improvement projects this year I can now focus on making this project happen for real.

I desperately wanted to get into keeping Parson's but after a lot of thought I know Meller's will be the more realistic species for me to successfully meet the requirements for. My biggest stumbling block is actually acquiring the animals. I know some cb melleri were available recently but at that time I simply wasn't able to accommodate one yet due to active home improvements and my own flip flopping between them and Parson's. I'm afraid I missed a huge opportunity.

Can you guys point me in the best direction for either captive bred or at least reliable importer/retailers? Even good Facebook groups or members to reach out to here? I don't have networking established compared to a lot of members here so I'm hoping for valuable advice. Thanks in advance everyone. I assure you I've done my homework on the species and will not be shy about asking for help should the need arise.

As far as I know, the only person seriously trying to establish this species in captivity in the US is @jpowell86 . I believe that the "captive bred" babies you are referring to that were recently available were the clutch of "captive hatched" that Joel had from a female imported gravid last year.

Mellers seem to take import particularly hard and are a challenge to keep alive through the acclimation process. They do not seem to take caging well at all, which is a challenge for such a large animal.

Tanzania has been closed for export, so any imported melleri seem to be imported from Mozambique or Malawi. I've gone through one shipment from (I believe) Mozambique and the animals were very different looking than the Tanzanian melleri--less bulky with long, thinner skulls. They were quite feisty, too. I had never before seen a mellers twist, gaping, hissing and trying to eat me but even the juveniles were like that. Joel pointed out to me that it was currently breeding season, so they would have been imported in breeding condition but I found an unusual amount of aggression by a small juvenile female directed towards an even smaller juvenile male.

They are a species I want to have one of one day. Right now, I enjoy them by proxy, going through imports with Joel and occasionally choosing a few for him when he can't make it down to the importers. They are a really interesting chameleon and give me the impression they are very intelligent and able to plan. I really like them.

Joel is the best person I can think of to help you. Good luck.

 

[Matt Vanilla Gorilla]

The Millers is an amazing chameleon! But I do not breed them. I currently only have Panthers available. Thanks for mentioning me @Anglewolf

 

[JoeDigiorgio]

As far as I know, the only person seriously trying to establish this species in captivity in the US is @jpowell86 . I believe that the "captive bred" babies you are referring to that were recently available were the clutch of "captive hatched" that Joel had from a female imported gravid last year.

Mellers seem to take import particularly hard and are a challenge to keep alive through the acclimation process. They do not seem to take caging well at all, which is a challenge for such a large animal.

Tanzania has been closed for export, so any imported melleri seem to be imported from Mozambique or Malawi. I've gone through one shipment from (I believe) Mozambique and the animals were very different looking than the Tanzanian melleri--less bulky with long, thinner skulls. They were quite feisty, too. I had never before seen a mellers twist, gaping, hissing and trying to eat me but even the juveniles were like that. Joel pointed out to me that it was currently breeding season, so they would have been imported in breeding condition but I found an unusual amount of aggression by a small juvenile female directed towards an even smaller juvenile male.

They are a species I want to have one of one day. Right now, I enjoy them by proxy, going through imports with Joel and occasionally choosing a few for him when he can't make it down to the importers. They are a really interesting chameleon and give me the impression they are very intelligent and able to plan. I really like them.

Joel is the best person I can think of to help you. Good luck.

Thank you for the detailed response. I messaged jpowell86 on Sunday actually and awaiting a response.

I'm trained in discipline and attention to detail from my time in the aquarium maintenance business and fish breeding hobby so I'm also familiar with the struggles of highly desirable animals coming into the country in poor condition. If reptile importers' facilities are anything like the wholesalers of marine fish and corals I am quite sure the picking is slim in quality animals.

If I'm understanding you correctly, it's going to be highly unlikely I get my hands on an imported animal at all right now, let alone a healthy one, am I right? Do young animals ever come in these imports or only very large ones? I'd imagine a young one would be far easier to condition. I've essentially got an 11' x 25' x 8'tall free range area waiting for whatever individuals I'm able to get my hands on and condition.

 

[JoeDigiorgio]

Just got off the phone with the local reptile shop and I'm on the list to be notified if they can get them. Whatever that means to them.

He did tell me he had several a few months ago, both large adults and 6-8" juveniles.

 

[Andee]

Usually they do best in free ranges or very large room-sized enclosures. They need huge amounts of misting/humidity. I don't just mean frequent intervals I mean very long times 30 minutes or more for morning mistings. So you have to be ready to be able to provide this without flooding. So just be careful and plan. You need to research them extensively. I would seriously read a ton of Joel's more recent threads it goes from conditioning the Meller's wildcaughts he gets, to the laying procedures, to some of incubating, and a lot of raising the babies. These guys eat tons and tons of insects.

 

[JoeDigiorgio]

The plan is to free range them in my covered, screened patio. I've been monitoring temps year round out there, ambient air maxes in the mid 80s. South Florida winters shouldn't be an issue either. I've got fans mounted out there and a mister ready to be installed. The patio doesn't flood, I manually hose the orchids heavily 2 times a day already, but I already have a Mistking on deck to be installed.

It gets full sun in some spots during the summer but there are areas that never get sun at all anytime of the year. Temps there average around 84, lower with the fans on, even lower I'd assume once the mister is hooked up. The full shade area makes up about half of the patio in the summer, more than half in the winter, south facing patio.

Over the next year the plan is to continue to build on the hanging orchid collection which is to eventually become a chameleon skyway as well as add more potted ficus and other branching plants to fill the lower 'understory'. The patio only ever gets either early morning or end of day sun because of the cover, only when the sun is at an acute angle do direct rays make it in.

 

[Andee]

I can't remember where Joel lives, he has an outside kind of freerange, it's more like huge green house that he specially built just for montane care, he has specified more for Meller's since the last few years, especially 2016, since he started focusing more on getting the colony going and getting them in conditions to where they are more likely to breed. However I remember he was extremely surprised how much humidity he had to add. I think he ended up making a swamp cooler... though once again I can't remember his exact temps and stuff he was working with such as natural temps etc. He also ended up adding more coverage than I think he originally planned. But the wildcaughts he gets usually thrive in his care, even when they are in poor condition. He also ended up installing a spy camera set up because he said Meller's a amazingly good at hiding health issues, or stress issues even for chameleons.

 

[JoeDigiorgio]

I am 100% prepared to make whatever improvements are necessary as they present the need. I am totally serious about taking on this project and I think I'm off to a good start, environment wise, but I'm really struggling with finding animals. Granted I haven't been seriously looking for long but I'm already getting the hint that this will not be a simple task. I'm hoping for some guidance from Joel soon regarding how he gets his and the intricacies of picking individual animals.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Just got off the phone with the local reptile shop and I'm on the list to be notified if they can get them. Whatever that means to them.

He did tell me he had several a few months ago, both large adults and 6-8" juveniles.

Don't get them from your local pet shop--get them directly from the importer. You will pay less and get a better animal.

The pet shop gets them from the importer or some other middleman and it is just stress added on top of stress. They are not likely to be kept well in any of the places so the fewer places they go to the better.

I've gone through a lot of shipments of mellers with Joel or for Joel and they are a real mess when they come in. They really break my heart. I think they are in the shipping crate about a week. In the last shipment there were something like four small ones, one being in good condition.

Where do you live?

 

[Andee]

Find healthy imported Meller's even compared to regularly "healthy" imported panthers or parsons even... is next to impossible in my opinion and from what I have heard. They are usually the worst of the worst conditions most of the time from what I have heard (even if you are lucky enough to find a healthy one) problem is it can take a lot of experience to find the correct tells with Meller's, from the sounds of it and from the pictures I have seen of people's recent imports, they can look like they are doing relatively well coping and getting back to where they need to be, where they can die within 24 hours for some supposedly unknown reason. However there is always a reason, it's just hard to see illness with these guys. My two cents is to give whatever import you get a shower for an hour or so as soon as you get it home. Preferably do that regularly (not sure whether multiple times a day are necessary Jean may know more in that respect), for at least a couple days within their first week. The extra warmth from the shower will stimulate them to drink quicker and the humid steam will allow for easier cleaning of their eyes (almost all the imports I have seen Joel post usually have tons of dirt and other gunk in their eyes when they get to his house that they get out with nice long mists and showers). The most important thing for new imports (especially meller's and other montane species) is rehydration. Feeding of course is important, but hydration in my opinion is a huge killer with montanes. I am sure any other keeper of montanes will agree. I wish you so much luck, it'd be great to get another person who can successfully get a breeding group going or at least get us closer to getting captive breeding groups. I would love for the import process to become less of a problem and hopefully some of the wild populations will have less stress taken off them.

I have personally never kept Mellers, just some species of jacksons who come through my "rescue". Which is really just me working to get them to a point I can rehome them safely. But all montanes have similar needs, though are very different in many ways. I have learned everything from tons of research from different sources and scouring Joel's threads multiple times. If anyone can help you, Joel can, and he will get you started right.

 

[JoeDigiorgio]

Don't get them from your local pet shop--get them directly from the importer. You will pay less and get a better animal.

The pet shop gets them from the importer or some other middleman and it is just stress added on top of stress. They are not likely to be kept well in any of the places so the fewer places they go to the better.

I've gone through a lot of shipments of mellers with Joel or for Joel and they are a real mess when they come in. They really break my heart. I think they are in the shipping crate about a week. In the last shipment there were something like four small ones, one being in good condition.

Where do you live?

I live in south Florida, Broward county. Can you offer more info about getting them directly from an importer? It was a process and a half to be able to shop at the fish and coral importers in Miami back when I was starting my aquarium service business. Shoot me a private message on here or we can even text if you prefer.

 

[Extensionofgreen]

If you have specific questions, I worked with a bred melleri and am referenced on the Melleri Discovery website.

A few key points:
NEVER Baytril for adults, it does not react well and has killed them.

New arrivals, plan on 60-90 min showers, 1 to several times a day for 3 months or so.

As soon as the animals appear hydrated, treat them for parasites. Coccidia and worms are guaranteed.

They enjoy natural sunlight and can handle temps of 85-90F with lots of shade and water. Plan on using Mercury Vapor bulbs indoors.

Supplement 3-4 times a week with Calcium and an appropriate vitamin supplement containing preformed A. Use the vitamin supplements sparingly and I will provide advice on brands and my justifications through PM, if you'd like.

Raise you're own feeders and know that they are very ravenous feeders.

They are difficult and they are not. One one hand, a healthy animal will clearly tell you what it wants by its behavior and if you are good at reading chameleons, you'll pick it up quickly. On the other hand, an apparently healthy animal, such as an import that appears recovered, can crash or die unexpectedly in an instant. I'd compile a list and reach out to importers in your state and be willing to drive and cherry pick your own animals, and or buy CB, though that is tough to find. Avoid animal that are severely dehydrated ( almost all are pretty bad ), have swollen toes, limbs, or open wounds.

They are difficult to sex and it takes seeing lots of animals to learn to make fairly accurate guesses.

They are so worth it! This is by far the most interactive, passionate, rewarding experience with keeping fish, herps, and other flora and fauna, that I've ever experienced. They are worthy and deserving of our focus and getting them established as breeding populations in captivity.

 

[JoeDigiorgio]

If you have specific questions, I worked with a bred melleri and am referenced on the Melleri Discovery website.

A few key points:
NEVER Baytril for adults, it does not react well and has killed them.

New arrivals, plan on 60-90 min showers, 1 to several times a day for 3 months or so.

As soon as the animals appear hydrated, treat them for parasites. Coccidia and worms are guaranteed.

They enjoy natural sunlight and can handle temps of 85-90F with lots of shade and water. Plan on using Mercury Vapor bulbs indoors.

Supplement 3-4 times a week with Calcium and an appropriate vitamin supplement containing preformed A. Use the vitamin supplements sparingly and I will provide advice on brands and my justifications through PM, if you'd like.

Raise you're own feeders and know that they are very ravenous feeders.

They are difficult and they are not. One one hand, a healthy animal will clearly tell you what it wants by its behavior and if you are good at reading chameleons, you'll pick it up quickly. On the other hand, an apparently healthy animal, such as an import that appears recovered, can crash or die unexpectedly in an instant. I'd compile a list and reach out to importers in your state and be willing to drive and cherry pick your own animals, and or buy CB, though that is tough to find. Avoid animal that are severely dehydrated ( almost all are pretty bad ), have swollen toes, limbs, or open wounds.

They are difficult to sex and it takes seeing lots of animals to learn to make fairly accurate guesses.

They are so worth it! This is by far the most interactive, passionate, rewarding experience with keeping fish, herps, and other flora and fauna, that I've ever experienced. They are worthy and deserving of our focus and getting them established as breeding populations in captivity.

Thank you so much for chiming in. What's your take on fresh imports regarding success ratios? What percentage of decent looking imports into the right hands should be expected to survive their first year in captivity?

 

[Extensionofgreen]

Thank you so much for chiming in. What's your take on fresh imports regarding success ratios? What percentage of decent looking imports into the right hands should be expected to survive their first year in captivity?[/QUOTE


Getting even pretty badly damaged imports to survive a year is one challenge and in experienced hands not too impossible, but getting an animal that should live at least 8-12 years to survive a year is not a very good outcome. Sometimes it takes 3 years for an import to die from complications related to importation. Becoming gravid will cause more stress on the animal's organs and although that animal seemed in perfect health, it can be found dead, without warning.
Jpowell86 has had the best success with long term survival, I'm aware of, in the states.
My longest kept import made it 3 years and so did several other imports that lived unknown lengths of time, beyond 3 years, in new homes, after I left chameleon keeping.

Juveniles and young adults have the highest success rate, with very large animals being to hardest hit by the stress of importation. I am one of the believers that melleri live in groups and that upsetting their social dynamic, then thrusting into life as a solitary animal or in a new group of animals where they have to establish their new position is an enormous contributing factor to their deaths.
Melleri are incredibly intelligent, remember things, have complex communication with their counterparts, and suffer psychological stress even more intensely than any other species I've studied or worked with. Once you have worked with adult melleri and see their personalities, you will be forever changed regarding your opinion of chameleon/reptile intelligence. They really are unique and amazingly intelligent animals.

 

[JoeDigiorgio]

I didn't mean to imply that 1 year survival was a desirable outcome, I just wanted to put a number on a successful import rehabilitation. I wouldn't expect reproduction within the first year of importation anyway assuming they're seasonal breeders in the wild, it would take at the very least a year or two just to become adjusted to the seasons in their new home region.

In the perfect world I would get my hands on a group of unrelated captive bred juveniles. In a more realistic world I'd like to get juvenile imports.

 

[Extensionofgreen]

I live in the North Eastern US and housed them outdoors during warmer weather. Mating occurred indoors, around December.
I'd give young animals 3 years to mature, before breeding. Younger animals can breed, but are far less robust and really are higher risk for egg binding and clutches will be small.

 

[JoeDigiorgio]

I live in the North Eastern US and housed them outdoors during warmer weather. Mating occurred indoors, around December.
I'd give young animals 3 years to mature, before breeding. Younger animals can breed, but are far less robust and really are higher risk for egg binding and clutches will be small.

I've read almost every one of Joel's threads on here regarding this species start to finish. The mother of the eggs he hatched laid in March. Did you find that to be consistent with pairings that occurred in captivity as well?

 

[Extensionofgreen]

The mother of his clutch was captured already gravid. It's been about 10 years since I worked with melleri ( no new information seems to have come about since ) and I don't recall when my CB female laid, but I remember the eggs took 4 months to hatch at room temperature.
I used coir as an incubation medium and ventilated clamshell container from fast food. Nothing really complicated about their inculcation. The female began digging a month before laying and laid at the base of a potted plant.